Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[08ISF]

41 minutes ago, DavidCM said:

One comment was made that I have never seen mentioned anywhere before is Plastics.We all use them in great quantities,but think for a moment about where they come from.... Petroleum. 

This is a very relevant point and one that seems to have escaped the attention of those who want to stop oil production . We rely heavily on oil for an awful lot of products.  These products are cheap because they are sourced from what is essentially a by product of oil production for fuel. If oil production for fuel is substantially reduced then the cost of the by products will shoot up because the considerable costs involved in exploration and production are not being met by selling fuel, if that makes sense. The whole direction we're going is flawed. We are a hydrocarbon based civilisation and the tendrils of hydrocarbons extend into every corner of our lives. We are not going to be able  divest ourselves of them in the sort of timescale the politicians are proposing.

[Spark plug]

On 1/21/2023 at 4:26 PM, Mr Vlad said:

I think I got something wrong about the cost of electrifying classic cars. I thought about it and its more 30-40k to do. Maybe even more so its only the rich who are doing that. A hydrogen conversation however I'd hope would be a quarter of the electric conversation or less.

Classic cars are meant to sound like a car not a washing machine on spin 

[wharfhouse]

24 minutes ago, 08ISF said:

This is a very relevant point and one that seems to have escaped the attention of those who want to stop oil production . We rely heavily on oil for an awful lot of products.  These products are cheap because they are sourced from what is essentially a by product of oil production for fuel. If oil production for fuel is substantially reduced then the cost of the by products will shoot up because the considerable costs involved in exploration and production are not being met by selling fuel, if that makes sense. The whole direction we're going is flawed. We are a hydrocarbon based civilisation and the tendrils of hydrocarbons extend into every corner of our lives. We are not going to be able  divest ourselves of them in the sort of timescale the politicians are proposing.

And of course if we are using oil to make all those other products then the by product is the fractions such as petroleum - so it becomes the waste product from the cracking process - hmmm wonder what they will do with it all? 

[Las Palmas]

33 minutes ago, 08ISF said:

This is a very relevant point and one that seems to have escaped the attention of those who want to stop oil production . We rely heavily on oil for an awful lot of products.  These products are cheap because they are sourced from what is essentially a by product of oil production for fuel. If oil production for fuel is substantially reduced then the cost of the by products will shoot up because the considerable costs involved in exploration and production are not being met by selling fuel, if that makes sense. The whole direction we're going is flawed. We are a hydrocarbon based civilisation and the tendrils of hydrocarbons extend into every corner of our lives. We are not going to be able  divest ourselves of them in the sort of timescale the politicians are proposing.

So, we are in urgent need of getting plastic. The way we dispose of it is exemplary. The sea is still not full of it. Some living creatures are still in the water. Let us get more plastic so we can get rid of those.

Plus, what would the world be without plastic fantastic?

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

Now now John don't be silly lol. There's actually Too much micro plastic in the sea that's its actually got into the food chain. 

What David mentioned earlier about synthetic petrol is stonking good news which I read about some months ago and forgot about, typical me lol. At that time there were a few doubts about it in the way of its production I think. There were some negative things but they were working on them. It'll be a great thing when it actually comes into fruition. 

[Las Palmas]

Volkswagen is developing a hydrogen car with a 1,250-mile range

The automaker is working on creating a fuel cell far cheaper to own than current forms of H2 vehicle.

Volkswagen is developing a new fuel cell hydrogen car that is intended to be substantially cheaper than the currently available H2 vehicles. They are aiming to roll out a model that will have a range of 2,000 kilometers per full tank.

This represents a few meaningful changes, including that VW is interested in an H2 vehicle.

Volkswagen has now applied for a new fuel cell vehicle patent, which it will be developing along with the Kraftwerk Tubes company from Germany. This shows that Volkswagen does not intend to be left behind in the rapidly evolving and growing H2 fuel and technology market.

The VW hydrogen car will be using different materials for its fuel cell membranes than are traditionally used.

Kraftwerk CEO Sascha Kühn pointed out that the primary difference between the traditionally used fuel cells in H2-powered vehicles are plastic, but their team is working with a ceramic membrane instead.

“The big advantage of our solution is that it can be produced much cheaper than polymer fuel cells and it does not require any type of platinum,” said Kühn. As platinum is a rare metal, using it drives up the cost of a traditional fuel cell. Avoiding the use of precious metals means that the cost of a fuel cell can be kept much lower.

Kühn compared the hydrogen car technology to solid-state batteries. Both the fuel cell being developed and a solid-state Battery have a similar material structure and the same electrolytes. The primary difference between them is that compact material is used by a solid-state Battery for energy storage, whereas H2 gas assumes that role in a fuel cell, where H2 can be stored without losing power where batteries will lose power if not used immediately.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Now now John don't be silly lol. There's actually Too much micro plastic in the sea that's its actually got into the food chain. 

What David mentioned earlier about synthetic petrol is stonking good news which I read about some months ago and forgot about, typical me lol. At that time there were a few doubts about it in the way of its production I think. There were some negative things but they were working on them. It'll be a great thing when it actually comes into fruition. 

What do you mean Vladimir? Is a live Barbie girl not something?

Only Mattel did not like the live version.

[Las Palmas]

ABO Wind to combine wind power with green hydrogen for refueling station

The clean energy project is a first for ABO Wind.

ABO Wind, a Germany-based company that develops projects for renewable energies, will combine a wind farm with the production and use of green hydrogen for the first time.

The company has been exploring the topic of hydrogen for nearly a decade.

“We have been working intensively on the topic of hydrogen for around ten years and are pleased to implement a project for the first time,” said Dr Jochen Ahn, an ABO Wind board member, in a recent press release announcing the project.

The company is planning the construction and operation of a wind turbine as well as an electrolyzer, and a hydrogen refueling station for buses and lorries, in the industrial park “Hessisches Kegelspiel” in Hünfeld.

ABO Wind has already submitted the approval application for the wind turbine, which will have an installed capacity of 4.8 megawatts. The electrolyzer, which will be used to produce green hydrogen, will start with a design that allows for an output of 5 megawatts, but will later be expanded to 7.5 megawatts after five years to meet the expected increase in demand for the clean fuel.

The green hydrogen will be produced via water electrolysis powered by a wind turbine in the industrial park and will mainly supply lorries via the hydrogen filling station. It is expected to refuel about 50 lorries per day. When there is no wind, the electrolyzer will draw power from the grid. It is estimated that the project will avoid as much as 115,000 tons of CO2 annually.

[Mr Vlad]

14 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

The way we dispose of it is exemplary. The sea is still not full of it. Some living creatures are still in the water. Let us get more plastic so we can get rid of those.

It's this John that I may of misunderstood. Crikey I remember that awful song from whenever. I loathed it then and still do. I have Metal running through my veins. 

That ABO wind company's idea sounds really good. Must be damn windy all the time in Hunfeld or windy enough all day to keep those huge blades turning to produce that 4.8 mega Watts. 

Wind farms are great but the ones we have here on land and in sea which amount to a lot of them but they only supply a small percentage of power we need. That's what I've read recently. 

[wharfhouse]

Another article about mfrs expressing concern they can't make viable cheap EVs... 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/affordable-electric-cars-not-viable-shp5q3p2q

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

It's this John that I may of misunderstood. Crikey I remember that awful song from whenever. I loathed it then and still do. I have Metal running through my veins. 

That ABO wind company's idea sounds really good. Must be damn windy all the time in Hunfeld or windy enough all day to keep those huge blades turning to produce that 4.8 mega Watts. 

Wind farms are great but the ones we have here on land and in sea which amount to a lot of them but they only supply a small percentage of power we need. That's what I've read recently. 

Sure it's not because of the sickening cuteness Mattel would have banned it. The words "plastic fantastcic" maybe.

Here on the little island it is windy and windmills are popping up; so, if driving at night you have a gigantic lightshow of red lamps. Solar cells are functioning all year as well.

[Mr Vlad]

It looks like it could be an interesting article Phil. I'd like to read it but I've no intention of subscribing to any newspaper. 

What was the gist of that article?

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Another article about mfrs expressing concern they can't make viable cheap EVs... 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/affordable-electric-cars-not-viable-shp5q3p2q

They want me to subscribe to read the article, so have not seen it.

[Mr Vlad]

https://hydrogen-central.com/new-hydrogen-car-travels-2000-kilometers-single-tank/

I've just read this really interesting article regarding VW and hydrogen and a 2000 mile range. WOW.

[wharfhouse]

46 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

It looks like it could be an interesting article Phil. I'd like to read it but I've no intention of subscribing to any newspaper. 

What was the gist of that article?

Ah sorry about that - I don't subscribe to any either but this came up as readable - strange - the gist was:

A mass market in affordable electric cars will not happen soon because of the difficulty of producing them on a commercially viable basis, one of the largest makers of zero-emission vehicles for British drivers has warned.

Paul Philpott, UK chief executive of Kia, the fast-growing South Korean car company, said it had no immediate plans for a mass-market electric product.

[wharfhouse]

27 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

They want me to subscribe to read the article, so have not seen it.

 

Sorry - came up in my browser as readable - see my reply above to Vlad for the gist. 

[Las Palmas]

Here is something maybe like the article The Times will not let us see (THE END OF ???)

 

Running out of juice: Electric cars are meant to be the future but there are bumps in the road to navigate before the petrol and diesel ban in 2030

By Ray Massey for the Daily Mail

We're in the middle of a perfect storm for electric cars this week. Not only has a planned electric car Battery factory in the North East gone bust, but rocketing energy prices mean the cost of charging has soared.

Additionally, provision of charging points isn't keeping pace with demand, and a glut of Teslas has prompted the firm to slash prices by up to £9,100.

It has LED many people to ask: is the much-vaunted electric car revolution about to blow a fuse?

 

And all the while ministers have decreed that the sale of new pure petrol and diesel cars is to be outlawed by 2030 (just seven years away), with only fully electric cars to be sold from 2035.

Going bust

This week, the Britishvolt Battery company, which planned to build a factory in Northumberland, has collapsed into administration.

Why does this matter? Well, as countries around the world switch to electric cars, demand for them is increasing. So if a nation like the UK is to build more electric cars, it needs around six or seven car manufacturing plants to supply one million vehicles.

Currently the Battery plant supplying Nissan's Sunderland factory is the only one in the UK. Without more plants, firms will have to import batteries, which may not be economically viable, and could lead to closures of car plants in the UK.

The UK is Europe's second biggest market after Germany and ahead of France.

But the car industry is international and all nations will be pushing hard for electric cars, of which there is a limited supply.

And if we don't build them here, we could end up at the back of the queue when it comes to allocations. Already there are waiting lists of up to a year for imported electric cars. And as costs and demand rise, so do prices.

Cutting down

Tesla, meanwhile, has just slashed the prices of its cult electric cars. 'Hurrah!' you may think. 'Time to nab a bargain.'

Well, anyone buying now will certainly benefit. But those who have just shelled out top dollar before the discounts are feeling furious — and rightly so.

If they bought on finance, as most people do, their monthly payments won't reduce. And there's a risk they'll be left with negative equity when they come to the end of their contract.

The cuts may also have a knock-on effect on residual values generally, not just Tesla's.

The biggest reduction, announced late last week, is on Tesla's range-topping Model Y Performance, now costing £59,990, down from just over £69,000.

The starting price for the Tesla Model 3 begins at £42,990, with the biggest price drop on the Performance variant of £8,100. 

This follows a large festive shipload of Teslas arriving in the UK in December, which LED to Elon Musk's battery-powered vehicles accounting for around one in eight of all car purchases that month.

Best plug-in sellers of 2022

1. Tesla Model Y (35,551): After a price slash, the UK's best-selling electric car is now priced from £44,990

 

2. Tesla Model 3 (19,071): Tesla's runner-up's prices were also cut in 2023 to £42,990, just after a big shipment of new cars

 

3. Kia Niro EV (11,197): Korean firm Kia's pure electric Niro EV range starts from £36,757 for the Niro 2 with a range of 285 miles

 

4. VW ID.3 (9,832): The perky hatchback from Germany's Volkswagen costs from £37,140

 

5. Nissan Leaf (9,178): This pioneering car, built at Nissan's Sunderland factory, is priced from £28,995

 

6. Mini Electric (7,425): Priced from £29,000, the four-seater Mini Electric has a range of up to 145 miles

 

Cost increase

Despite the Tesla cuts, electric car prices are soaring generally; the final £1,500 government grant was axed last summer; and the cost-of-living crisis coupled with rising inflation means motorists of modest means are struggling to go green.

Only 3 new electric cars available to UK buyers are now priced under £30,000.

Two years ago, the total was 15. 

And the entry price of some models has soared by 53 per cent in that time, according to one report.

The three all-electric models still below the £30,000 threshold are: the Chinese MG4 from £25,995; the Nissan Leaf from £28,995 and the Mini Electric from £29,000.

The biggest price increase has been the Fiat 500e, which has seen the price of the cheapest version leap from £19,995 to £30,645.

However, Fiat says it has subsequently re-introduced an entry level 24kWh RED trim, priced from £28,195, following earlier supply issues. 

Even once-budget brands such as Kia are charging premium prices, with variants of the new EV6 (which has a 12-month waiting list) costing more than £60,000, and the forthcoming EV9 expected to exceed £70,000.

Lacking energy

Poor provision of charging points remains 'a barrier' to further uptake of electric cars, says the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.

It adds: 'The Government's EV Infrastructure Strategy forecast that the UK would require between 300,000 and 720,000 charge-points by 2030.

'Meeting just the lower number would still require more than 100 new chargers to be installed every single day. 

The current rate is around 23 per day.' RAC analysis revealed that the cost of charging an electric car on the road is up by nearly 60 per cent in eight months, and that rapid charge points were nearly £10 more expensive than filling up a car with petrol. Motorists also pay 5 per cent VAT on home chargers yet 20 per cent on public ones.

Jaguar Land Rover has also warned ministers that proposed targets for electric vehicle production could weaken it so much that plans for new models would have to be delayed or scaled back. 

[Mr Vlad]

Great article by Ray Massey. Below is a YouTube video from a vlogger I quite like. The circumstances of the results well could have happened on any day. The video outlines the lack of working chargers. Enjoy

 

 

[First_Lexus]

Slightly off topic, but there hasn’t been much coverage on the SNP and their bid to make private car use ‘unnecessary’ in Scottish cities. They have said that the “…era of unconstrained private car use is now at an end.”

They're both the most left-wing governing party in the UK and seemingly the most committed to suppressing personal freedoms that most of us have become used to. As was noted in an article I read somewhere, the power of COVID regulation over citizens has rather gone to their heads…they now think they’re able to interfere in other areas of people’s daily lives.

I do think making public transport more accessible so that people CHOOSE not to use a private car is laudable. But I fear the aim of the SNP is to make it almost mandatory and I doubt they’ll be the last Government to do so.

 

 

[Mr Vlad]

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/mazda-europe-boss-2035-ice-ban-is-a-disgrace-of-the-politicians/278089

Crickey. A big boss of a car manufacturers coming out with this. He's a top geezer 👍

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Mr Vlad said:

https://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/mazda-europe-boss-2035-ice-ban-is-a-disgrace-of-the-politicians/278089

Crickey. A big boss of a car manufacturers coming out with this. He's a top geezer 👍

All the car manufacturers seem to saying the same thing - just that the governments aren't / don't want to listen... 

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

…they now think they’re able to interfere in other areas of people’s daily lives.

I do think making public transport more accessible so that people CHOOSE not to use a private car is laudable.

Is that not what all governments do?

Some governments are having more luck hiding it. As long as the ruling class (politicians and some other well-off groups) are allowed to do what they like, they wish that the rest of us are voting for them, working for them and very important: not complaining.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, wharfhouse said:

All the car manufacturers seem to saying the same thing - just that the governments aren't / don't want to listen... 

They are what they are. And they believe what they have been told to believe. Hopefully they will be told something else by people with influence when they find out that the problems with batteries are not just a little bit bigger than expected.

Politicians will listen if enough voters will not vote for them. Then their advisers will tell them why as they are just politicians and to become a politician it is not needed to be able to think, that is why they have people paid to tell them what to do.

[Mr Vlad]

I didn't realise that Phil. It makes me wonder that if all the car manufacturers are saying like that Mazda geezer and telling governments then I'm quite sure they'll be listening and taking note. But are those manufacturers actually telling governments directly? 

My thought is along the lines of how this government kind of fought to get the likes of Honda and other car manufacturers to build a plant to make cars here. The concessions they made etc etc. The government must surely have listened to those manufacturers and their 'demands' (can't think of a more relevant word) so the manufacturers signed the dotted line.

Something somewhere must be getting lost in translation where governments listen to manufacturers and the like.

[H3XME]

27 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

I didn't realise that Phil. It makes me wonder that if all the car manufacturers are saying like that Mazda geezer and telling governments then I'm quite sure they'll be listening and taking note. But are those manufacturers actually telling governments directly? 

My thought is along the lines of how this government kind of fought to get the likes of Honda and other car manufacturers to build a plant to make cars here. The concessions they made etc etc. The government must surely have listened to those manufacturers and their 'demands' (can't think of a more relevant word) so the manufacturers signed the dotted line.

Something somewhere must be getting lost in translation where governments listen to manufacturers and the like.

They were being too optimistic as always. Made a decision based on theories and dreams.. Porsche boss is also against electrifying.. others too. Nobody likes it. Manufacturers know the problems first hand, better than bullsh*t politicians. They know their markets, they know the manufacturing process.. they know it’s not possible with the way batteries are being made. Slow process and very expensive. Manufacturers make money on cheap cars that they sell **** loads of. Just remember years ago, everytime they’d be a new “plate” out you’d see lots everywhere. Now? The only 22/72 plate cars I see are very expensive high end cars. Most likely company cars. Cant tell you last time I noticed a regular car like a VW Polo or something equally small and regular on the latest plates. Nobody can afford them anymore. Let alone the much more expensive electric versions. The number of people able to afford a brand new car is getting lower and lower. The UK will be like Eastern Europe or South America if something doesn’t change.. regular folk driving old cars and people who are well off will be the only ones buying new cars. There will be No New car that a regular working man could afford.. ICE range is shrinking by the week. Let’s all prey the clowns running this country come to their senses soon because they’ll be losing big money if “nobody” is buying new cars. And sadly that’s probably when they’ll start doing something about it because they’ll be short on cash. That’s what is gonna make them stop and think about it. So yet again they’ll fu*k the whole country and we’ll be the ones picking up the pieces and suffering.