Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[superatticman]

How about this then. EVs for those in towns and cities who don't venture far? ICEs for the rest of us. 

Trust me, there's plenty of wealthy types in and around London whos cars barely make it out of their own borough let alone the M25 zone! EVs work for them.

I'm happy to accept the days of me purring around in a V6 are going to be over sooner than I think. A quick glance at the autotrader reveals petrol cars are now sticking out 220+ hp from a puny sounding 1.4. So we've now got to the stage where a 2 litre is now a BIG engine. If that's what it takes to keep the zealots at bay then so be it.

 

 

[Moleman]

6 minutes ago, superatticman said:

How about this then. EVs for those in towns and cities who don't venture far? ICEs for the rest of us. 

Trust me, there's plenty of wealthy types in and around London whos cars barely make it out of their own borough let alone the M25 zone! EVs work for them.

I'm happy to accept the days of me purring around in a V6 are going to be over sooner than I think. A quick glance at the autotrader reveals petrol cars are now sticking out 220+ hp from a puny sounding 1.4. So we've now got to the stage where a 2 litre is now a BIG engine. If that's what it takes to keep the zealots at bay then so be it.

 

 

I have up to now decided not to comment, because it is to easy to fall into a pro/anti stance and get stuck.

So the post above shows how a real debate could go if that was allowed to happen

I am not anti BEV, I would likely buy one now if the prices were more realistic, but, there is a but: it would be a second car, charged at home and only used for local trips (no more than 50 Miles). In fact it would replace my Starlet, which I use for that purpose.

It would not however, be any use for me on my regular trips to and from Norfolk, for that I would wish to stick to ICE.

That I think for most town/city folks who can home charge, would be a good solution.

Pollution in towns/city would be greatly reduced, however, it assumes everyone who could home charge would be able to afford two cars, not likely I feel.

Other drivers who truly fit into the small mileage users often quoted to support BEV could be catered for if the Government would get their act together re public charging points (as pointed out by many other users). However, I do still feel this is aimed at mainly those living town environments.

So to finish, I feel we need a hybrid solution, that allows those that can to make a switch to BEV and those who needs are different stick with ICE. Build a proper public charging network, bring the price of BEV down, and stop making it anti/pro one or the other and many would I feel make the change.

Pollution would then be greatly reduced, if that really is the problem?

What is stopping this? The failure today to allow any real debate of an issue, thus seeking actual solutions that would work. A Government that panders to pressure groups to keep them quiet, but making ill thought through decisions and then making no effort to any make them work. Allowing the collection of taxes in every form to become the focus, rather than the solution of the problem (if it exists).

[royoftherovers]

50 minutes ago, Moleman said:

I have up to now decided not to comment, because it is to easy to fall into a pro/anti stance and get stuck.

So the post above shows how a real debate could go if that was allowed to happen

I am not anti BEV, I would likely buy one now if the prices were more realistic, but, there is a but: it would be a second car, charged at home and only used for local trips (no more than 50 Miles). In fact it would replace my Starlet, which I use for that purpose.

It would not however, be any use for me on my regular trips to and from Norfolk, for that I would wish to stick to ICE.

That I think for most town/city folks who can home charge, would be a good solution.

Pollution in towns/city would be greatly reduced, however, it assumes everyone who could home charge would be able to afford two cars, not likely I feel.

Other drivers who truly fit into the small mileage users often quoted to support BEV could be catered for if the Government would get their act together re public charging points (as pointed out by many other users). However, I do still feel this is aimed at mainly those living town environments.

So to finish, I feel we need a hybrid solution, that allows those that can to make a switch to BEV and those who needs are different stick with ICE. Build a proper public charging network, bring the price of BEV down, and stop making it anti/pro one or the other and many would I feel make the change.

Pollution would then be greatly reduced, if that really is the problem?

What is stopping this? The failure today to allow any real debate of an issue, thus seeking actual solutions that would work. A Government that panders to pressure groups to keep them quiet, but making ill thought through decisions and then making no effort to any make them work. Allowing the collection of taxes in every form to become the focus, rather than the solution of the problem (if it exists).

Wow, a Toyota Starlet Maurice. The best car never to be given a Joutnalistic accolade ?

[Moleman]

18 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Wow, a Toyota Starlet Maurice. The best car never to be given a Joutnalistic accolade ?

Well I love driving it. 26 years old, drives like new, never let me down, bullet proof car, even has the made in Japan sticker on the window.

Does it show its age, of course, but no rust issues, has to use E5 but that is okay. No electric windows or any such issues to go wrong, the only extra seemed to be a heated rear window.

As the saying goes - does what it says on the tin.

Wish they made cars to such standards today.

[royoftherovers]

38 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Well I love driving it. 26 years old, drives like new, never let me down, bullet proof car, even has the made in Japan sticker on the window.

Does it show its age, of course, but no rust issues, has to use E5 but that is okay. No electric windows or any such issues to go wrong, the only extra seemed to be a heated rear window.

As the saying goes - does what it says on the tin.

Wish they made cars to such standards today.

I agree with all you said Maurice. My wife wanted one but we couldn1t find one suitable so we made do with a French built Mark One Yaris CDX Auto. It did us fine ,without fault for 15 years.

[Mr Vlad]

Oh dear Hyundai what have you been up to in your American factory?

Well put Maurice. The ideal would be to have a BEV and an ICE car. There are drawbacks a plenty and already mentioned. I think what most folk are missing is that the 2nd car being BEV needn't be bigger than say a Toyota Aygo or tops being the size of a Ford Fiesta. They needn't have to have a Big Battery etc etc etc But just what percentage of folk could actually 'afford' one? By afford I mean it's initial cost, where to keep it, where to charge it, is that particular size of BEV available, how often would it be used.

The sad answer is about 10-15% of folk even though the the percentage of folk who'd like to have the 2nd car BEV is like 60+% me being one of them.

As for ice cars polluting cities. Poppycock. The percentage of pollution caused by cars is miniscule compared to what the buildings in the cities produce. Take the cars out of the cities and an honest true pollution reading would barely change compared to having cars in the city. Yes so called test and readings have been done where cars were banned from city's and false readings were produced claiming the air was cleaner when in fact those figures were false.

Petrol is king. Long live the king.

 

[Shahpor]

4 hours ago, Moleman said:

I have up to now decided not to comment, because it is to easy to fall into a pro/anti stance and get stuck.

So the post above shows how a real debate could go if that was allowed to happen

I am not anti BEV, I would likely buy one now if the prices were more realistic, but, there is a but: it would be a second car, charged at home and only used for local trips (no more than 50 Miles). In fact it would replace my Starlet, which I use for that purpose.

It would not however, be any use for me on my regular trips to and from Norfolk, for that I would wish to stick to ICE.

That I think for most town/city folks who can home charge, would be a good solution.

Pollution in towns/city would be greatly reduced, however, it assumes everyone who could home charge would be able to afford two cars, not likely I feel.

Other drivers who truly fit into the small mileage users often quoted to support BEV could be catered for if the Government would get their act together re public charging points (as pointed out by many other users). However, I do still feel this is aimed at mainly those living town environments.

So to finish, I feel we need a hybrid solution, that allows those that can to make a switch to BEV and those who needs are different stick with ICE. Build a proper public charging network, bring the price of BEV down, and stop making it anti/pro one or the other and many would I feel make the change.

Pollution would then be greatly reduced, if that really is the problem?

What is stopping this? The failure today to allow any real debate of an issue, thus seeking actual solutions that would work. A Government that panders to pressure groups to keep them quiet, but making ill thought through decisions and then making no effort to any make them work. Allowing the collection of taxes in every form to become the focus, rather than the solution of the problem (if it exists).

Funnily enough Maurice, I actually fall into the category you are describing.

So, I am in the strange position of having a gas-guzzling petrol car (my Kia Stinger) and a EV (My wife's Kia Niro EV).

We have had the Niro for 2 months and have managed almost 1500 miles in it now.  Due to my commute to work being only 6 miles daily and my wife working from home, the Niro is my everyday transport.  It is also the main car we use when we go out together around the local area.

And you know what?  I am loving driving the Niro!  I didn't think I would, but it is just so effortless and smooth, as well as comfortable, that it really is a stress free environment to be in.  I love the linear power delivery and no gears, the instant response and the lack of vibrations/harshness.

In that time, we have taken it on slightly longer trips (150 miles +) in addition to pottering around town and it has done equally well.  Very comfy on the motorway.

We have also managed all this without visiting any chargers and only charging it at home overnight, where we get cheap electricity from Octopus Go (12p per kWh).  This equates to roughly £7.80 for a full 'tank' that is getting us roughly 250ish miles.

Does this mean that I recommend EV's for everyone?  Most certainly not!  For us, it is strictly because we have 2 cars and I would always have a non-EV as one of them.  Also, having off street parking is a must as far as I am concerned.

In conclusion, I feel EV's have their place on the roads, but aren't the one-size-fits-all solutions that some people think it is.

[08ISF]

A little glimmer of light: 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-11640855/Wyoming-set-BAN-sales-new-electric-vehicles-2035.html

It seems that in some quarters the current headlong rush to electric is not finding much support.

[wharfhouse]

29 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Funnily enough Maurice, I actually fall into the category you are describing.

So, I am in the strange position of having a gas-guzzling petrol car (my Kia Stinger) and a EV (My wife's Kia Niro EV).

We have had the Niro for 2 months and have managed almost 1500 miles in it now.  Due to my commute to work being only 6 miles daily and my wife working from home, the Niro is my everyday transport.  It is also the main car we use when we go out together around the local area.

And you know what?  I am loving driving the Niro!  I didn't think I would, but it is just so effortless and smooth, as well as comfortable, that it really is a stress free environment to be in.  I love the linear power delivery and no gears, the instant response and the lack of vibrations/harshness.

In that time, we have taken it on slightly longer trips (150 miles +) in addition to pottering around town and it has done equally well.  Very comfy on the motorway.

We have also managed all this without visiting any chargers and only charging it at home overnight, where we get cheap electricity from Octopus Go (12p per kWh).  This equates to roughly £7.80 for a full 'tank' that is getting us roughly 250ish miles.

Does this mean that I recommend EV's for everyone?  Most certainly not!  For us, it is strictly because we have 2 cars and I would always have a non-EV as one of them.  Also, having off street parking is a must as far as I am concerned.

In conclusion, I feel EV's have their place on the roads, but aren't the one-size-fits-all solutions that some people think it is.

We are similar - two cars - one for my work / long journeys (IS 300h) and a Toyota Yaris hybrid that my wife mainly uses for short journeys - we could change the Yaris for electric (and charge at home) if the price of EVs drops to similar price as ICE / hybrid but for the foreseeable future would need the IS or similar for my work and long journeys. 

[Mr Vlad]

Perfectly said Shapor. You are in an innenviable position in having a drive and a charger and on a good electricity supply and cost. And yes you've been on a longish trip within the range of your Niro and that's great. Just what I said earlier. 

That Wyoming thing banning sales of EV'S. There's something not quite right there. More will come to light In the next few days. 

So it's being said that the cost of electricity is coming down soon. By how much we'll have to wait and see. It may mean that there will be a switch in that a long distance trip may be cheaper in an EV as opposed to a car. But that cost reduction. Is that to apply to domestic usage only or to those companies running the super chargers etc at a rip off price aswell? 

[Spock66]

8 hours ago, Moleman said:

I am not anti BEV, I would likely buy one now if the prices were more realistic, but, there is a but: it would be a second car, charged at home and only used for local trips (no more than 50 Miles). In fact it would replace my Starlet, which I use for that purpose.

I think that's a model that would suit many, small electric city car for commuting etc, ICE for longer journeys.

For those that only need / want one car a plug in hybrid would be a better option than BEV.

[Harrier Man]

Commenting on Mr Vlad's post, "As for ice cars polluting cities. Poppycock. The percentage of pollution caused by cars is miniscule compared to what the buildings in the cities produce.", I would agree up to a point. Modern petrol cars are very clean and pollution from homes and business is significantly greater but I remember a news item a while back showing a mum pushing her daughter, in her pushchair, along a busy London street and you could physically see the exhaust fumes washing over the child's face. Made me feel very sad and sick for the little girl. Of course, I know that the most harmful pollution was coming from HGVs and diesel vehicles in general, and not from today's petrol engines, but it did confirm in my mind that something needed to be done to protect people.

Encouragement should be the key: for example, free parking, parking that comes with charging points - thousands of them, etc. Let the people use their judgement and do what many have done, BEV for the cities, petrol for the long journeys, towing and non-HGV deliveries. Government should spend massively on researching solutions and creating appropriate infrastructure before introducing legislation. Response is always better and swifter with the carrot than the stick. Just my opinion. 

[Mr Vlad]

Yes Malcome I kind of remember that news item. It was perfectly timed in a certain location in a certain weather condition. A version of smog happens in built up city areas and its because of human needs in tech etc. Its most unfortunate. But absolutely Yes older cars more so diesels do chuck out some dirty muck. It's unfortunate that the owners of those cars can't afford, or are just plain selfish ignoramuses, to get those cars serviced regularly. They're cheap runabout and it's those vehicles that need a more stringent yearly test. It's a sad fact of life and nothing will change it.

[Las Palmas]

11 hours ago, Moleman said:

Well I love driving it. 26 years old, drives like new, never let me down, bullet proof car, even has the made in Japan sticker on the window.

Does it show its age, of course, but no rust issues, has to use E5 but that is okay. No electric windows or any such issues to go wrong, the only extra seemed to be a heated rear window.

As the saying goes - does what it says on the tin.

Wish they made cars to such standards today.

The more complex cars are, the more probable something can go wrong.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, Harrier Man said:

 you could physically see the exhaust fumes washing over the child's face.

Were those actually exhaust fumes... or rather like our mainstream media really likes to show - cold morning and cars just pumping loads of condensate in form of simple steam?! More often than not news items are deliberately designed to make you feel EXACTLY as you felt when you seen it, but more often than not they are made-up, misinterpreted, misconstrued and presented in misleading way, from certain perspective, certain angle which only tells the story which they want to tell. I don't want to make any conspiracy claims, but I always look at this charged language and news very carefully and ask myself - is what I am seeing is really what they telling me it is? You will be surprised how often it turns out it isn't... 

Because what we always see on TV are pictures like these:

What is that? a snow on the side of the road and good old water vapour! That is not POLLUTION!

Whereas pictures like one below shows actually harmful pollution, but the problem is that you need to find a really old diesel junk to be able to take such picture...

[insert picture here!... Problem is I actually spend 20 minutes trying to find genuine not photoshoped, not enhanced picture of the car actually emitting visible smoke on the road and I could not find it]

I guess closest to what I was able to find are these:

clearly a single old car with probably blown head gasket ... yet it is clear it is the only one and all the other cars creates no smoke.

Somebody deliberately "rolling coal".

Or something like this:

"horrible"! But what exactly is this? Maybe a cold foggy winter morning? Or maybe is it actual pollution, or is it blurred image with some fog effect? where that is coming from? was it HGV or bus driving by? Is it even coming from the street, or from side of the street? 

Honestly I can't find pictures where cars emitting pollution on mass.... My point is - it is extremely rare to actually see car clearly emitting visible pollution, most of the pollution (even genuine pollution like NOx, soot, particle matter) is not visible and really rarely you can see one pictured. Yet most of what we told is pollution coming from the road is not pollution at all, most of the time the thickest and most visible "smoke" is steam! And sure when I am driving I can see cars polluting every day, but that is because on my way to work I pass literally 10,000s of of cars and see maybe 2 or 3 cars emitting visible smoke, 99.9% of the time they are some trashy old diesel which clearly shouldn't be on the road and probably has fake MOT. But in general it is rare.. well literally 2 cars out of every 10000!

And they do that not only to the cars... they really like pictures like these:

Can anyone tell me what is the problem above? Ohhh... yes indeed - that is Nuclear power plant which does not emit ANY pollution at all and what we see is actually steam from the cooling towers... Yet every single time ecomentalists says "look how polluting is such and such", they use these particular pictures without even understanding what they are looking at.

Finally, I am not saying pollution isn't real... No pollution is REAL... the problem is that most of the time it is invisible and when somebody shows you "picture of the pollution"... it isn't what they say it is, because it can't be, because you can't see NOx or CO2!

 

[Las Palmas]

Toyota unveils AE86 hydrogen car concept

JBy JULIE CAMPBELL

The vehicle places the spotlight on the potential for H2 a burning internal combustion engine.

To draw greater attention to the appeal an H2-burning internal combustion engine (ICE) has to offer, Toyota has built a hydrogen car version of its AE86 sports coupe.

The H2 ICE passenger vehicle was displayed at the automaker’s Tokyo Auto Salon.

Toyota unveiled the AE86 hydrogen car at the same time that it showed off a new version of that same vehicle that it converted to be Battery electric. Both versions are still manual transmissions, though it’s the H2 model that is drawing the most attention. The AE86 models operate silently and without fossil fuels or the emissions they produce.

The AE86 uses the Toyota Tundra pickup hybrid’s electric motor for the H2 version and the electric has a Battery from the Prius Prime PHEV for a 48-horsepower vehicle with a 13.6kWh Battery capacity.

Comparatively, the H2 vehicle is more powerful. In its information, Toyota didn’t state specifically how powerful it is, but it is a 4A-GE four-cylinder engine which was altered only lightly so that the car would be able to burn hydrogen instead of fossil fuels.

Toyota said this hydrogen car only involved changing the “fuel injectors, fuel pipes, and spark plugs.”

Toyota explained that to create its new H2 burning internal combustion engine vehicle involved changing only “fuel injectors, fuel pipes, and spark plugs,” to make it possible to burn cleanly. This makes it quite different from Toyota’s Mirai fuel cell vehicle, which is significantly different from a traditional internal combustion engine.

Among the reasons the automaker decided to build the AE86 hydrogen car was to demonstrate how older passenger vehicles can be relatively easily convert to run on H2, just as is the case among many Ford and Chevy classics. That said, Toyota isn’t offering a conversion kit for existing vehicle owners to make the changes themselves. At least, they’re not doing it yet. Many expect that these kits will eventually become available, particularly if the aftermarket begins doing so on its own.

The appeal of converting older vehicles into hydrogen cars to slash their carbon footprint.

Toyota’s AE86 hydrogen car project helps to underline the carbon emission reducing prospects “for protecting beloved cars,” said a statement from Toyota. It explained that it worked alongside aftermarket suppliers to be able to bring a different life to old stock. It even focused on using recycled materials wherever that was possible.

This is becoming increasingly popular among classic and muscle car owners, particularly in the United States, where Ford and Chevrolet models are already being converted to run on H2. The appeal is for H2 internal combustion engines instead of fuel cell designs like the Mirai because it allows for the preservation of as much of the original vehicle as possible. These conversions are even making it possible to keep up the engine rumble that those vintage vehicle owners love so much.

Toyota has been increasingly focusing on the hydrogen internal combustion engine design.

Toyota is taking a look from many angles at hydrogen cars with internal combustion engines, despite the fact that they aren’t especially fuel efficient. Recently its president Akio Toyoda was behind the wheel of a race car model (an altered Corolla Cross) powered by this clean energy to show motorsports just how much potential H2 really has.

The AE86 H2 concept does have a considerable feature in common with the Mirai fuel cell vehicle, even if the AE86 is an internal combustion engine vehicle. That feature is the pair of H2 tanks that hold the fuel. They are located behind the rear hatch.

[Mr Vlad]

What you said above Linas is Absolutely Bang On. Bang On. 

To the uninitiated (big word lol) that truck pumping out thick black smoke. Its a Diesel which has been tuned. No catalytic converter. No EGR valve. In around 2005/2006 I had the MG ZT diesel. And yes it didn't have a cat, the EGR was blanked and I had a little black box of tricks with 3 settings. 1 economy 2 medium 3 max possible. On settings 3 when I floored it the amount of black smoke coming from my exhaust was comical. I used that to annoy tail gaters. They soon backed off lol. Used it rarely by the way. 

That's a ruddy interesting article John. Ruddy interesting. If that 'kit' could be made and was reasonably priced it would be a game changer I think. 

Those classic cars being converted to electric. For what price? A good few thousand like 8-10k if not more.

Two programmes on TV recently. 1 is it time to switch your car yet? 2 Fifth Gear Recharge. To their credit they both mentioned the fact it takes 70x more power to produce an EV. However they brushed past that with oh so mediocre statement like "yes but offset that by using renewable energy then it balances out". Poppycock. Renewable energy is way off in the distance. Those kind of programmes need to state that 70x more power fact and dwell on that fact. Not brush it under the carpet like it's not relevant. 

[Las Palmas]

Black smoke from diesels. The 2005 2.0tdi DSG Golf we had did not smoke a lot in the beginning, but the last 4 or 5 years before getting ITV (MOT in UK) I had to drive 4 - 6 km in low gearing cleaning the exhaust with the heat from engine to get rid of all that black that would not let me past if it was still in the exhaust pipe. Black clouds after when going uphill and when pressing the accelerator.

Funny that the 2.0 and 2.2 Lexus diesels I have seen here have no black smoke coming out from them and they are more or less also rather old.

[Las Palmas]

57 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

That's a ruddy interesting article John. Ruddy interesting. If that 'kit' could be made and was reasonably priced it would be a game changer I think.

That could be a blow to car Battery production if only there would be places where we can fill hydrogen on the cars. It does not take 70% more energy to convert an engine to drive on hydrogen.

Toyota would be very capable to make conversion kits to own engines; question is how cheap they are willing to let them be, as they also want to sell new cars.

Still, maybe they also would see that if their own cars were more on the roads, new from competition would not be as many as if not.

[Mr Vlad]

I think I got something wrong about the cost of electrifying classic cars. I thought about it and its more 30-40k to do. Maybe even more so its only the rich who are doing that. A hydrogen conversation however I'd hope would be a quarter of the electric conversation or less.

[dutchie01]

where does LPG fit in?

I always thought that was a clean fuel and i drove lpg cars years ago

fuelling infrastructure is available and you can retrofit your petrol at not too high cost

surely this is more realistic than going on about hydro that if at all will be a decade away at least?

anyone shed a light on this?

[08ISF]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

where does LPG fit in?

I always thought that was a clean fuel and i drove lpg cars years ago

fuelling infrastructure is available and you can retrofit your petrol at not too high cost

surely this is more realistic than going on about hydro that if at all will be a decade away at least?

anyone shed a light on this?

LPG is  still carbon rich, though not as high as petrol or diesel, so this is not an easy fix. Not surprising bearing in mind it comes from the same source.

[Mr Vlad]

What's wrong with LPG Bernard is nothing really. It's not suited to all vehicles. Nowadays according to a friend who has a LPG converted car that it's costing more and those retailing it are getting scarce. Its unfortunate. 

[DavidCM]

I've just read a very good article in Evo magazine on synthetic petrol.one UK company and Porsche in Chile.

One comment was made that I have never seen mentioned anywhere before is Plastics.We all use them in great quantities,but think for a moment about where they come from.... Petroleum. 

I suspect petrol might be around for longer than we are thinking at the moment.

[Spark plug]

On 1/20/2023 at 8:34 AM, superatticman said:

How about this then. EVs for those in towns and cities who don't venture far? ICEs for the rest of us. 

Trust me, there's plenty of wealthy types in and around London whos cars barely make it out of their own borough let alone the M25 zone! EVs work for them.

I'm happy to accept the days of me purring around in a V6 are going to be over sooner than I think. A quick glance at the autotrader reveals petrol cars are now sticking out 220+ hp from a puny sounding 1.4. So we've now got to the stage where a 2 litre is now a BIG engine. If that's what it takes to keep the zealots at bay then so be it.

 

 

I'm not. I will be keeping my older bigger engines as long as possible. Hopefully petrol will get cheaper as demand drops as everyone jumps on the electric car bandwagon. Then Ill be able to run a nice big V8. Just like heating oil drops in price in summer time when nobody wants it...