Research shows it costs more to run an EV on long journeys

[Mr Vlad]

https://www.upday.com/uk/electricity-costs-more-than-petrol-for-drivers-on-long-journeys-analysis-shows

I just happened across this article. Very interesting. Personally I can't see this changing any time soon and governments have the audacity to ban sales of new petrol cars in what 5 6 years? Pure stupidly. 

[Mincey]

That's the price for being Woke. Once the government cuts BIK for EVs and starts slapping on taxes and tariffs, EVs will soon lose their shine, mark my words.

[Mr Vlad]

It's getting monotonous all the talk EV's are the saviour EV's are rubbish. 

That article I posted is the complete opposite of a YouTube video I saw earlier. An EV dealer drove a long range tesla model 3 about 350 miles on one charge. Yeah that's great and if you've got your own charger then it's a no brainer if you can afford it. And then it's the comments below the video of the anti fossil fuel brigade. OMG what a bunch of numpties as described by TalkTV? 

[H3XME]

5 minutes ago, Mincey said:

That's the price for being Woke. Once the government cuts BIK for EVs and starts slapping on taxes and tariffs, EVs will soon lose their shine, mark my words.

100%. General public won't be so keen on getting EVs until 1) prices drop significantly 2) and until there's a lot more charging stations. If you get one through your company then you most likely also have a charging port at work so not really an inconvenience. 

ICE cars are for everyone, how can a person who lives in a flat charge their EV? Those people are lucky to even get a parking space. Technology is barely ready, but infrastructure is nowhere near it. 

[H3XME]

3 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

It's getting monotonous all the talk EV's are the saviour EV's are rubbish. 

They aren't saving sh*t Vlad.. everyone with a working brain knows this. Global pollution from cars is less than 5%. The global warming is barely affected by this. Sure, EVs can reduce certain amount of smog in cities, but the cars today are already so clean that they're gaining fractions by focusing on cars. Trouble is, targeting cars is an easy thing for them to do, so they do it to look like they're doing "something"... maybe they'll come to their senses in the next 5-10 years and realise that EVs are an environmental bollocks excuse.. 

If someone wants an EV because they like it for the tech-y side of things, sure, it's a nice "futuristic" alternative, but don't be in denial about how not so green they are.. 

[Mincey]

17 minutes ago, H3XME said:

100%. General public won't be so keen on getting EVs until 1) prices drop significantly 2) and until there's a lot more charging stations. If you get one through your company then you most likely also have a charging port at work so not really an inconvenience. 

ICE cars are for everyone, how can a person who lives in a flat charge their EV? Those people are lucky to even get a parking space. Technology is barely ready, but infrastructure is nowhere near it. 

Wise words.

[H3XME]

@Mr Vlad this is a good video that's showcasing a 2012 Nissan Leaf.. Battery capacity is at 66% after 10 years.. 50 miles on the motorway 55-70mph until it died. Now sure, it's a Leaf, but if you compare it to a similar size economy ICE car like Honda Jazz this just make 0 sense to own. We will hear more negatives about EVs in the years to come when others become older. Most EVs now are still fairly new. 

[Bluemarlin]

Surely none of this is news to anyone, especially with regards to new and emerging technology. Smartphones were   initially prohibitively expensive, and didn't make sense for most people, now virtually everyone has one.

It's pretty obvious, even to the most evangelical of EV supporters, that the reality is that whilst EVs may be better for some people, that either petrol or diesel are better for others. Naturally the hope is that, with economies of scale and, as technology advances, both in terms of batteries and charging facilities, that EVs will ultimately become at least as comparable to ICE vehicles in terms of cost and practicality, if not better. Whether that situation will arise is yet to be known but, given sufficient time, it's currently as probable as it isn't.

So for now, who knows. The only thing that does seem certain is that the momentum to shift away from petrol and diesel is unlikely to be reversed.

[Mr Vlad]

Good points Lucas but you've got me wrong in certain things regarding EV's. I'm certainly not in denial how not so green they are. Fact is they're not as green as many owners of them have been LED to believe. 

In my particular situation an EV makes perfect sence. However. I'm not a snob but 90% of the cars I've owned have been top of the range. So to have a top of the range EV is out of the question because they're oh so expensive. Oh the thing about mobile phones were ruddy expensive years ago but now everyone has one. Yes everyone does but have you noticed what kind of phone they have? Yeah the latest all singing all dancing type on credit. So that's a naff analogy. Anyway back to what I was saying. To have an EV would cost as much as I paid for my bungalow 5 years ago. To have a charger installed at a suitable location would cost near 5k. The price of electricity is really high but may be coming down slowly. So let's call it 70k. Ruddy he'll 70kbwould make my is250 as mint as mint can get and I'd have 65k. But would I? No coz I still have a mortgage.

EV'S have their placeas does petrol and diesel cars. I'm just fed up of the blinkered EV evangelists harking on and on and on spouting fictional facts.

[H3XME]

11 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Good points Lucas but you've got me wrong in certain things regarding EV's. I'm certainly not in denial how not so green they are. Fact is they're not as green as many owners of them have been led to believe. 

Sorry Vlad I probably wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean that YOU are in denial. I was talking about EV owners. 

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, H3XME said:

They aren't saving sh*t Vlad.. everyone with a working brain knows this. Global pollution from cars is less than 5%. The global warming is barely affected by this. Sure, EVs can reduce certain amount of smog in cities, but the cars today are already so clean that they're gaining fractions by focusing on cars. Trouble is, targeting cars is an easy thing for them to do, so they do it to look like they're doing "something"... maybe they'll come to their senses in the next 5-10 years and realise that EVs are an environmental bollocks excuse.. 

If someone wants an EV because they like it for the tech-y side of things, sure, it's a nice "futuristic" alternative, but don't be in denial about how not so green they are.. 

This is spot on!

Global pollution from transportation is  ~10-11%, but private cars and vans are just 24% from all forms of transportation, so we really looking at ~2.4% at best (the spit was something like 2.1% diesel and 0.3% petrol, hybrid and other). AVERAGE BEVs are estimated to be 30% cleaner than ICEV, so if we replace EVERY ICEV with BEV WORLDWIDE, we will reduce pollution by 0.8% WOW!

I want to as well focus on definition for "AVERAGE", because the most comprehensive multi-year study which was done to the date (by European Council) collected the data between 2008 and 2014, that is before Tesla Model X, before S Plaid, before Audi eTron, before all long range and large batteries BEVs which are the ones in fashion now. So yes! If one replaces their old "gas guzzler" ICEV with small and compact car like Leaf or Honda E, which has small Battery and low range (say under 100miles), then they are 30% cleaner, but that does not apply to what we generally regard as mainstream BEVs nowadays.... nothing about their LONG RANGE batteries is AVERAGE. So when people come with they Model X and tries to lecture me and pretend to have moral high-ground is just disgusting. 

And indeed you right again - BEVs do benefit city air quality and as localised measure to improve city air they are viable, but as complete solution for everyone in the city and in the country they just don't work and they are not even beneficial. So again - I can get behind policies limiting polluting cars in the city - like old diesels, HGVs and similar. But to have national ban on all ICEVs is just retarded thing to do and will only cause harm.

... and I live in flats, so I know exactly how impossible is to get the BEV anyway, even if my driving in the city would generally benefit from BEV and I would be in position to own one... I just can't I have nowhere to charge it and I am certainly not alone in this situation. In fact most of Londoners don't even have where to park... nevermind charge the cars.

[08ISF]

The rush to go electric is driven worldwide  by politicians anxious to show their "green"credentials, knowing full well that by the time the turkeys come home to roost so much time will have gone by they will be able  to distance themselves, or better still it will be the opposition's problem. Electric cars are not "green" overall they are only green in use provided the electricity charging them is green. Volvo produced a report that claimed that an electric car takes 7 years to pay back the CO2 produced by making it, so the rush to electric cars is actually making carbon emissions worse in the short term.

The big issue that will bite shortly  is the availability of charging points vs the number of cars requiring them and the cost in use of these. The fast chargers require very big electrical supplies which are going to be very expensive to install. Guess who's going to be paying for them one way or another!

IMO electric cars only really work if you use them for short journeys around town (where they can reduce local pollution) and  you can charge at home.

And don't think that the government is going to forgo all the lovely revenue they get from tax on fossil fuels, they're going to find a way to recover that.....

Why do you think that Toyota/Lexus are dragging their feet on introducing electric cars, they probably  know that they aren't the magic bullet.

[Linas.P]

This is how the future will look like once ICEVs are banned:

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/tesla-owners-report-long-queues-for-chargers-over-the-christmas-period/674874.article

We only have ~5% BEVs nationally and there are already queues, so imagine what will happen when everyone will have BEV. And I mean sure - more charging points will be installed... but are we really believing government will install something like 40 times more charging points to avoid queues? I kind of doubt it... I think the solution will be 1... what they said for long time, taxing certain hours for road use - so if one chooses to drive at wrong time they just going to pay a lot for the roads and 2... there will be rationing... so when one gets to the queue or even when they start charging at home there will be only certain amount of charge one can get in one day or at one go.

I don't know who is looking forward for this future, because for me that sounds like dystrophia... We will have "private" cars, but it will be government deciding where, for how long and when we can drive them. I mean sure there are already limited places where that is true even today, like tolls during peak hours, bus lanes during peak hours, congestion charging, but in comparison it is very specific cases and limited areas. In future EVERYONE will be controlled with BEVs because simply said infrastructure will not  cope with demand... unless we double generating capacity by 2030 and quadruple transmission capacity and install 40 times the number of chargers - which I simply can't see happening within 7 years.

[Mr Vlad]

Oh how I laughed when I read an article which I'll tell the short of it. 

York Council spent  good few million on 25 Electric Trucks to replace the existing rubbish collection trucks. Just how ####Ing thick they are is that there's no ruddy charges for them. The council don't have the Infrastructure for them yet so the new trucks are hidden away outdoors out of the way. Oh and they bought them months ago apparently. 

Tebay services I know well and there are quite a few tesla charges on that site.

Abington Services about 86 miles north of Tebay have about 8 tesla chargers and 2 normal chargers. They've recently put in operation 6 or 8 more chargers. Mind you Tebay is really really popular because of the ultra posh farm shop. Lots of posh expensive cars in the carpark.

[First_Lexus]

I registered to hear about the Subaru Soltarra a few months ago (the Subaru version of the Lexus RZ). They’ve been chasing me for a test drive, but I’ve declined as I don’t think an EV will suit me at the moment, mainly because I have a regular 200+ mile journey and have no confidence in a) public charging if needed and b) real life range at motorway speeds in Winter. 

Both of these issues are well known and accepted, and yet there are those - including on this forum - who claim there are “no compromises” in EV ownership. Sigh…

Anyway, I’ve told Subaru I’m not interested, and they offered a substantial discount on list price. To me that can indicate only one thing…they can’t sell them. Likely for the same reasons I’m not interested. Anybody listening to Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 yesterday would run a mile as Giles Coren and then Helen Skelton outlined their nightmares with EVs.

A relative wanted to buy an EV as a company purchase. Last year he couldn’t get one without a huge delay and paying full list. He’s now ordered one with a BIG discount and virtually no delay. I think that tells a story.

If this is going to work Government need to properly invest in infrastructure and prices for the cars need to reduce significantly. There needs to be confidence. Without confidence, early adopters can say what they like to try and convince the rest of us, but the market will determine the outcome. I’d say that either of the major political parties brave enough to kick petrol / diesel new car bans into the long grass would gain significant vote share…

[Mr Vlad]

this is a very good video and not only funny but honest too which makes a pleasant change. Enjoy.

 

[Linas.P]

40 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

I registered to hear about the Subaru Soltarra a few months ago (the Subaru version of the Lexus RZ). They’ve been chasing me for a test drive, but I’ve declined as I don’t think an EV will suit me at the moment, mainly because I have a regular 200+ mile journey and have no confidence in a) public charging if needed and b) real life range at motorway speeds in Winter. 

Both of these issues are well known and accepted, and yet there are those - including on this forum - who claim there are “no compromises” in EV ownership. Sigh…

Anyway, I’ve told Subaru I’m not interested, and they offered a substantial discount on list price. To me that can indicate only one thing…they can’t sell them. Likely for the same reasons I’m not interested. Anybody listening to Jeremy Vine on Radio 2 yesterday would run a mile as Giles Coren and then Helen Skelton outlined their nightmares with EVs.

A relative wanted to buy an EV as a company purchase. Last year he couldn’t get one without a huge delay and paying full list. He’s now ordered one with a BIG discount and virtually no delay. I think that tells a story.

If this is going to work Government need to properly invest in infrastructure and prices for the cars need to reduce significantly. There needs to be confidence. Without confidence, early adopters can say what they like to try and convince the rest of us, but the market will determine the outcome. I’d say that either of the major political parties brave enough to kick petrol / diesel new car bans into the long grass would gain significant vote share…

My worry is that what we end-up getting as solution will be owners of ICEVs will be taxed to discount and promoted BEVs (which what was the case basically for last 5 years or so).

What I want to see is BEVs competing on their own merits, by offering real benefits, by being really competitive. Not only being competitive when government gives £4000 grant, allows to drive without road tax and just covers the cost from other users. In short they not competing in the free market, so market can't determine the outcome.  

[Las Palmas]

6 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

It's getting monotonous all the talk EV's are the saviour EV's are rubbish. 

That article I posted is the complete opposite of a YouTube video I saw earlier. An EV dealer drove a long range tesla model 3 about 350 miles on one charge. Yeah that's great and if you've got your own charger then it's a no brainer if you can afford it. And then it's the comments below the video of the anti fossil fuel brigade. OMG what a bunch of numpties as described by TalkTV? 

The new Mirai can drive 1000km before needing more fuel.

[dephrank]

They don’t care about the environment.  Just using pollution as an excuse to rinse the populace. If I were to showcase a car that runs off power drawn directly from the aether, I’d be dead in less than a week 😑

[Las Palmas]

No matter what kind of transportation we use, they all need energy. EV's need electricity. In Germany they are now starting mining coal again to burn in order to make electricity. Not only to cars but also. Making more pollution than the new combustion engines.

[Mr Vlad]

Great Post Frank. I laughed because just today I watched a TV show The Persuaders. Yes The Persuaders. Just in case you don't know it's one of the best ever tv shows which had Roger Moore and Tony Curtis two MEGA stars as sleuths. This particular show involved finding a crashed plane with a skeleton in it clutching a box and note. In the box was a formula to make a fuel not involving oil. The note said whoever finds this please burn the formula because the world isn't ready for it. That skeleton was the investor and his plane had a bomb in it to kill him. Who organised the bomb was an oil tycoon. 

[H3XME]

10 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Great Post Frank. I laughed because just today I watched a TV show The Persuaders. Yes The Persuaders. Just in case you don't know it's one of the best ever tv shows which had Roger Moore and Tony Curtis two MEGA stars as sleuths. This particular show involved finding a crashed plane with a skeleton in it clutching a box and note. In the box was a formula to make a fuel not involving oil. The note said whoever finds this please burn the formula because the world isn't ready for it. That skeleton was the investor and his plane had a bomb in it to kill him. Who organised the bomb was an oil tycoon. 

It could be like one of those "cure for cancer exists, but they earn too much on treatments so won't be released" kind of things.. it sucks if it's true. And who would be paying for this if it was true? Us, common folk..getting the sh*t end of the stick again. Making the rich ever richer while getting no benefit..

[wharfhouse]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

but are we really believing government will install something like 40 times more charging points to avoid queues?

The issue is that no UK government will install charging points or improve the infrastructure - they are relying on the private sector to do that. They may bring in some laws to make using the infrastructure easier - I believe they have said that all charging points have to accept contactless payment cards without relying on an app though when/if that has actually happened I have no idea. At the end of the day the infrastructure will only improve dramatically if private companies think they can turn a profit on it.

[wharfhouse]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

This is how the future will look like once ICEVs are banned:

https://forecourttrader.co.uk/latest-news/tesla-owners-report-long-queues-for-chargers-over-the-christmas-period/674874.article

We only have ~5% BEVs nationally and there are already queues, so imagine what will happen when everyone will have BEV. And I mean sure - more charging points will be installed... but are we really believing government will install something like 40 times more charging points to avoid queues? I kind of doubt it... I think the solution will be 1... what they said for long time, taxing certain hours for road use - so if one chooses to drive at wrong time they just going to pay a lot for the roads and 2... there will be rationing... so when one gets to the queue or even when they start charging at home there will be only certain amount of charge one can get in one day or at one go.

I don't know who is looking forward for this future, because for me that sounds like dystrophia... We will have "private" cars, but it will be government deciding where, for how long and when we can drive them. I mean sure there are already limited places where that is true even today, like tolls during peak hours, bus lanes during peak hours, congestion charging, but in comparison it is very specific cases and limited areas. In future EVERYONE will be controlled with BEVs because simply said infrastructure will not  cope with demand... unless we double generating capacity by 2030 and quadruple transmission capacity and install 40 times the number of chargers - which I simply can't see happening within 7 years.

I came back from Wales to Berkshire between Christmas and New Year and at one of the service areas on the M4 there was only I think 4 electric charging points and cars queuing to use them. We went into the services, got a snack, ate the snack, took the dog for a short walk and when we finally got back in the car to go again there was the same person just plugging in who was at the head of the queue when we arrived - and so after we were all done and dusted and on our way they still had to then wait for their car to add some charge - perhaps another 30 minutes minimum - maybe an hour? And there were still others queuing for the chargers - who of course can't leave their cars while waiting as they would lose their place in the queue...!

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

The issue is that no UK government will install charging points or improve the infrastructure - they are relying on the private sector to do that. They may bring in some laws to make using the infrastructure easier - I believe they have said that all charging points have to accept contactless payment cards without relying on an app though when/if that has actually happened I have no idea. At the end of the day the infrastructure will only improve dramatically if private companies think they can turn a profit on it.

And that is precisely the reason why I don't think it will happen. For us to hit the target there has to be massive build-up starting now, probably should have started few years ago. There should be sweeping new laws giving new rights to tenants where landlord must install or must allow installation of charging point at home, and obviously planning for public points as well. Basically infrastructure should be organised on national level to make sense, but nothing of sorts is happening and therefore I don't believe infrastructure will be ready for 2030.

As well charging points are pretty much the easiest part, but we simply do not generate enough capacity (there is risk of blackouts even now, before we have to charge what may be 30 million BEVs), and distribution network is as well an issue. 

So yes - in summary we have 7 years to do that and based on what I am seeing it won't happen unless approach changes fundamentally... and I can't see that happening as well.