Why Lexus is yet to break into the UK mainstream

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

At Lexus Reading, both Lexus and Toyota are next to each other (both owned by Jemca) but each has it's own service facility. 

That’s good to know, I have used Lexus Stoke and Leicester for servicing, I drop my car off then someone drives off in it, hence my thoughts they might be going to a Toyota workshop, or a shared one. I remember Toyota Derby many years ago showcasing there site and saying there was a dedicated Lexus area in the workshop, I don’t have a problem with this. 

[Rabbers]

58 minutes ago, Derant said:

Isn’t servicing already carried out at Toyota? I am sure my experience seems to be you take your car to a Lexus dealer but the car is taken to a workshop that is shared with Toyota. Lexus Derby is 50 yards from Toyota both Inchcape, I am sure Lexus is purely a showroom/office etc with no service facilities, that is carried out on the Toyota site

 

46 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

At Lexus Reading, both Lexus and Toyota are next to each other (both owned by Jemca) but each has it's own service facility. 

Although a dealership’s obligations towards Lexus and Toyota will be contractually defined and subject to inspection, it is in practice unrealistic to expect no operational overlaps where premises are shared or in close proximity.  Which reinforces the case for those who advocate a merging of the two marques. 

[george72]

At lexus Lincoln, both Toyota and Lexus share the same Showroom!

[wharfhouse]

3 hours ago, Rabbers said:

 

Although a dealership’s obligations towards Lexus and Toyota will be contractually defined and subject to inspection, it is in practice unrealistic to expect no operational overlaps where premises are shared or in close proximity.  Which reinforces the case for those who advocate a merging of the two marques. 

I personally wouldn't have a problem if the same workshop was used by both but would hope that there will remain dedicated Lexus technicians for Lexus specific aspects of the cars. 

[Linas.P]

6 hours ago, Rabbers said:

Low European market shares should not be confused with any attempt by Lexus to cultivate a niche brand identity.  Lexus unsuccessfully competes primarily with long-established German equivalents in terms of realistically achievable sales volumes but on at least an equal footing with them in terms of quality, technology and price.  True niche products defined as self-contained units that have little or no competition outside of themselves and whose volume ambitions are limited by strategic choice rather than the pressure of competition are few in the car industry.  Morgan springs to mind, Pagani, Maybach, Alpina, perhaps Lotus …..

I would actually say that the way Lexus arbitrary limited their model and engine choice fit this description. BMW and MB are just not Lexus competitors anymore. Ok RX and NX competes with X5 and X3, but that is pretty much the only real competition Lexus puts out. ES does not compete with neither 3, nor 5-series. LS sells so few cars that they simply not in the same universe as S-Class/7-Series... LC does not sell any volume either. I guess UX sells, but it is hardly worth Lexus badge, not much different from Toyota CH-R to justify spending money just on the badge. Then further restrict what I mentioned with one engine and only very specific type of people buys these cars... I must say Lexus has loyal customers but they are very specific ones... nobody walks into the dealership from the street and chooses to buy Lexus over BMW or MB... as such BMW and MB in UK does not need to consider Lexus when pricing their cars, or marketing, or servicing or whatever... As such if that is no niche brand then I don't know what it is.

I guess we can simply say it is so uncompetitive (I just disagree it successfully competes when it comes to new cars), that it is simply not a concern for competitors, but if Lexus would bring their entire model line-up and price their cars 10% cheaper then this wouldn't be the case... as such I am arguing it is by choice. I guess maybe my choice is skewed a bit, because I am in the market for something like BMW 3-series or 4-series, maybe 5-series... what exactly does Lexus have to offer to me... FWD Lexus with single engine option, when I want something ~6s to 60? I guess for somebody looking to get crossover this isn't an issue.

[dutchie01]

I dont think it is by choice Linas more out of lack of choice there simply seems no other option.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/uk-2022-car-sales-analysis-winners-and-losers/

 

 

 

 

 

[dutchie01]

Sorry, wrong button! Anyhow have a look at the 2022 salesfigures. Some 10,000 cars sold by lexus and the newish brand Polestar already on 7k with one model. Cupra another new one at 14k, MG ( ! ) at 51k and so on. In 2023 the Chinese will be in there as well and i expect Lexus to shrink further as there are no new models that are competitive or intereresting enough for the bigger public. Even the new RZ BEV seems a weak proposal with a too limited range. Oh dear, it does not look good.

[KentColin]

So,the UX is hardly worth the Lexus badge ? I'm lost for words. 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, KentColin said:

So,the UX is hardly worth the Lexus badge ? I'm lost for words. 

Don’t be speechless, you aren’t alone, apparently the ES isn’t a Lexus either 😂

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

I dont think it is by choice Linas more out of lack of choice there simply seems no other option.

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/industry-news/uk-2022-car-sales-analysis-winners-and-losers/

If this would be the case of 2021/2022... sure I would agree. But this is not a new thing... from the beginning Lexus decided not to offer half of their cars in UK. For example even before IS existed, they decided not to sell ES. Later they didn't offer LX and GX. Then they didn't offer AWD or 350... so it isn't last 2 years, it is like decades long strategy. 

@Derant and @KentColin - correct for both, one is copy paste of Toyota Avalon another of CH-R. No attempt was made to even use better materials or somehow make them standout or feel substantially different. 

[Mr Vlad]

I've seen what I found to be the ES300h in a most fabulous blue with red leather interior. Most definitely a Lexus. The UX do what it's based on something else But it's way better. I love the UX250H as much as I love my is250 and its the car that one day will replace it. Oh and yes it is a Lexus. 

[Las Palmas]

11 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

I've seen what I found to be the ES300h in a most fabulous blue with red leather interior. Most definitely a Lexus. The UX do what it's based on something else But it's way better. I love the UX250H as much as I love my is250 and its the car that one day will replace it. Oh and yes it is a Lexus. 

Any day I will say the IS is 10 times the beauty, compared to the UX. Lexus or Toyota or whatever.

[Linas.P]

29 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

I've seen what I found to be the ES300h in a most fabulous blue with red leather interior. Most definitely a Lexus. The UX do what it's based on something else But it's way better. I love the UX250H as much as I love my is250 and its the car that one day will replace it. Oh and yes it is a Lexus. 

I mean Toyotas are great cars so nothing to be offended about, but they are not Lexus.

[Roger Bill]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

nobody walks into the dealership from the street and chooses to buy Lexus over BMW or MB

They certainly would if they'd suffered the unreliability of an MB car and MB service like I have over the past few years.

In the UK BMW and MB have snob appeal which helps them sell premium priced cars that at best only manage middle ranking in reliability surveys. In the USA the BMW and MB snob value is less significant and I believe it's one reason why Lexus, Honda and Acura have achieved much higher market shares than in the UK and Europe.

Interestingly a friend who is a retired motorcycle dealer tells of the poor quality of the BMW bikes he sold vs those from Honda.

[First_Lexus]

36 minutes ago, Roger Bill said:

In the UK BMW and MB have snob appeal which helps them sell premium priced cars that at best only manage middle ranking in reliability surveys. In the USA the BMW and MB snob value is less significant and I believe it's one reason why Lexus, Honda and Acura have achieved much higher market shares than in the UK and Europe

Agree with this. As I said earlier, in the UK particularly, the German brands are seen as ‘prestige’ at the expense of marques from almost everywhere else. The French long ago gave up the fight they tried to fight right up to the Renault Vel Satis and Peugeot 607. There does seem to be a big perception lag of what a Japanese car offers, and I’d guess if there was a poll of motorists it would stress reliability and value but not luxury or prestige.

A few years ago Lexus did have a broader range with IS, GS and even a diesel. It didn’t seem to do them much good in volume terms - and it’s likely they weren’t even really chasing volume based on what I’ve read on this thread - so why not concentrate on what their core customers really want and buy and put more effort into those markets where they do shift volume?

The question, for me, is whether Lexus really do want to be ‘mainstream’ in the UK. 

[Mr Vlad]

Whether Lexus want to be mainstream or not I think there will be conflict within. Yes the German cars are seen as snobbish but isn't that purely down the the crooked motoring press? Crooked yes. I think their reviews are cough cough bought. 

[Spock66]

17 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

I personally wouldn't have a problem if the same workshop was used by both but would hope that there will remain dedicated Lexus technicians for Lexus specific aspects of the cars. 

I don't see a problem as long as they have the right training and access to technical support.

My local dealership is joint Toyota and Lexus, separate showrooms but I am sure the workshop is shared round the back.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, Roger Bill said:

They certainly would if they'd suffered the unreliability of an MB car and MB service like I have over the past few years.

In the UK BMW and MB have snob appeal which helps them sell premium priced cars that at best only manage middle ranking in reliability surveys. In the USA the BMW and MB snob value is less significant and I believe it's one reason why Lexus, Honda and Acura have achieved much higher market shares than in the UK and Europe.

Interestingly a friend who is a retired motorcycle dealer tells of the poor quality of the BMW bikes he sold vs those from Honda.

I trust you had bad experience, but largely this is NOT an issue for new car buyer. Even MB and BMW last the first 3-5 years and that is as long as it needs to last, again yes MB and BMW are not as reliable and they may have some slight issue which is warranted anyway and just additional opportunity to get coffee and third of the fuel tank on the dealership whilst driving their car for a week. The Lexus reliability only really kicks in past 100k miles and 5-10 years. I cannot see any reason to buy brand new Lexus ever as buying 2-3 years old one at 50% discount is basically as good as new. Nor I would want to have Lexus out of warranty as the prices for repairs really get's ridiculous (my 3 years old RC needed seat repair and it was £4200... lucky me it was warranted).

Again if what you saying would be true then MB, BMW and Audi would not have as many fleet buyers as they have, reliability for large fleets is important and maintenance costs are key for the car choice. If large number of the fleet cars needs to go back for warranty work at once it could be disaster for a fleet - and I know because long time ago my father company had fleet of 30 brand new golfs mk5 and at one point 17 were back with WV for warranty works... at which point he just terminated contact at huge cost to himself and replaced them with Corollas, but that was better option for the company then having only 13 cars available. 

In short - German reliability woes is a MYTH for most part as long as we talking about cars under 5 years and under 60k miles. Yes there are occasional "lemons", yes they are not as reliable as Lexus, Toyota or Honda, but as long as you replace them before 5 years and 60k miles... they are sufficiency reliable. And generally speaking new car buyers (the people that matter for car companies) replace their cars when lease runs out - that is 2, 3, 4, or 5 years leases and cars rarely get's past 30k miles, nevermind 60k. Even if they do - don't forget that all leased cars have mileage cap after which one has to pay per mile... so this cost well covers any additional warranty work needed. The horror stories really starts only when they get past 5 years and 60k miles and somebody buys them "nearly new" and suddenly 6 years old car with 80k miles needs entire engine and gearbox replaced because all the idiotic plastic cars in the engine have fallen to pieces. 

[dutchie01]

How old were the 30 VW s of your fathers company?

[Roger Bill]

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In short - German reliability woes is a MYTH for most part as long as we talking about cars under 5 years and under 60k miles

Sorry but there is plenty of new car reliability survey evidence to show the German manufacturers' cars are less reliable, especially MB. Here are just a few:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2022-what-car-reliability-survey-brands/n23418

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-toyota-lexus-make-the-most-reliable-cars-mercedes-the-least/

https://www.fleeteurope.com/fr/connected/united-kingdom/analysis/peugeot-tops-real-life-reliability-tables?a=JMA06&t[0]=Peugeot&t[1]=Skoda&t[2]=Volvo&curl=1

https://www.warrantywise.co.uk/blog/warrantywise-data-german-car-brands-reliability

[Mr Vlad]

Might be irrelevant but here goes. Just watched Fifth Gear Recharge. They did one of their which is best out of a group of cars. Hybrid SUV's was the subject. But plug-in ones and a price tag around £70k. Four brands tested. Volvo Audi BMW Porsche but no Lexus. 

[NemesisUK]

31 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In short - German reliability woes is a MYTH for most part as long as we talking about cars under 5 years and under 60k miles.

Mercedes in particular are suffering from very unreliable electrics, also alloy wheels that split at the slightest bump and don't go anywhere near their offerings for hybrids! No real experience of the other German marques but these days Mercedes are built down to a price and lean heavily on past glories. As for their dealership experience ....

[malcolmw]

Mercedes dealership experience huh?

A while back I went to the Merc dealership in Salisbury (in my Aston DB9 to make them take me seriously as a potential customer!) and test drove an AMG GT Coupe. It was fast and a bit cramped for me but they let me take it out for an unaccompanied drive for an hour or so. I took it back and expressed general interest and said I would think about if I wanted to spend £100K plus.

I never heard from them again.

Astounding arrogance.

[Mr Vlad]

Your experience Malc has reminded me when I had my first Lexus. is300h which I wasn't happy with. I wentvto the big BMW dealer in Leeds and had my eye on the active hybrid 3 series 3.0. I was impressed and said I'd have it. What would you give me for my car? Never heard back from them.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

How old were the 30 VW s of your fathers company?

Brand new... within 6 months 5 were already down, after 2 years there was breaking point where 17 cars were down and dealership had only 10 courtesy cars available and obviously had other clients so could only provide 2-3. There was as well court case and my father only paid small part of the costs for breaking the lease early, because there was clearly a big issues with dealership as they just couldn't fulfil their end of bargain to provide courtesy cars, but he lost 10 times as much just paying overtime and due to lost business.

3 hours ago, Roger Bill said:

Sorry but there is plenty of new car reliability survey evidence to show the German manufacturers' cars are less reliable, especially MB. Here are just a few:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2022-what-car-reliability-survey-brands/n23418

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/consumer-reports-toyota-lexus-make-the-most-reliable-cars-mercedes-the-least/

https://www.fleeteurope.com/fr/connected/united-kingdom/analysis/peugeot-tops-real-life-reliability-tables?a=JMA06&t[0]=Peugeot&t[1]=Skoda&t[2]=Volvo&curl=1

https://www.warrantywise.co.uk/blog/warrantywise-data-german-car-brands-reliability

I do not deny they are less reliable... this is fact and that is exactly what your data shows. However, that is still IRRELEVANT for brand new cars! Note as well - one fault is =/= another fault, for example that folding mirrors doesn't fold is a warranted fault, but it is not big tragedy stopping you from driving the car, the engine failure like what Rangerovers like to do is big tragedy... so really the data should be interpreted before used. Warranty Wise data is the best in this regard as it shows both number of faults and cost, which at least somewhat balances between huge faults and tiny ones, but...

• "Warranty Wise" data is used cars - outside of manufacturers warranty, so that will be cars over 5 years/60k miles.
• "What car" is more relevant, but again look to the numbers - score = 100% - % of cars which suffered the fault within first 5 years. So only 7% of BMW had a fault and ~11% of MB. Sure that is much worse than Lexus ~2%, but it isn't as doom and gloom as people like to think. And not as bad as in my example above where 50%+ of Golfs had faults within 5 years.
• KBB does not actually say how exactly they figured it out and consumer reports should be taken with the pinch of salt (they are more of opinion polls rather than qualitive data). They as well list BMW as third best which is quite unlikely. 
• The Fleet Europe - I am sorry but I just can't take source which states that Peugeot is most reliable car seriously. As well they note that MB C-Class is second most reliable in it's class... so who knows.

I still stick to my previous statement that Lexus reliability only really starts making difference after 5-10 years and 60-100k+ miles. For example I definitely wouldn't want to deal with 10 years old 120k miles BMW 3 or 5-series, yet I would quiet confidently buy 10 years old GS450h with 100k miles or 15 years old Lexus IS250 with 150k miles.

57 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

Mercedes dealership experience huh?

A while back I went to the Merc dealership in Salisbury (in my Aston DB9 to make them take me seriously as a potential customer!) and test drove an AMG GT Coupe. It was fast and a bit cramped for me but they let me take it out for an unaccompanied drive for an hour or so. I took it back and expressed general interest and said I would think about if I wanted to spend £100K plus.

I never heard from them again.

Lexus has plenty of that as well... I received the call from Lexus GB saying "we have event... blah blah.. would you be interested in any car?"... and I am like "Ok I want to upgrade my RC to LC". Great - "what exactly you looking for". I said I want black/red interior under 60k (note this is 2020 January and LC is trading at 40k). Great - "I will check the dealerships that have something like that and arrange the viewing". Called me back like 30 min later and booked-in for Saturday to the particular dealer etc. etc. specific time everything sounded very nice and formal. I drove like 1.5h to that dealer came to the reception and told them I have appointment to discuss LC... they asked me to sit down made coffee.. all good so far...

Then I just spend 1.5h sitting there until sales manager came without any clue what I am there for and basically asked me why I am there... So I have explained to him I was contacted by Lexus GB, they booked the appointment and I want to discuss LC they have and potential upgrade. Ok... another 45 minutes later another sales manager came back to me and said that basically they don't have any LC, so total waste of time, but they can look into database of the network and see if they have any in the network... fine, had one red, one yellow and one brand new 500h for 82k, which none of them interested me, but somehow in meantime they figured out that dealership principal had nearly new LC500, so they at least arranged test drive in that one not to make it absolute disaster of a trip for me.

The conclusion - they promised to call me back if any black, blue or white V8 with red interior comes to the network under £60k... 3 years later and I have never received the call. So these "once off" experiences are just anecdotal evidence of certain dealership or even specific sales manager failing to pay attention to customers... it is not possible to decide from single encounter about whole network or brand.