E-CVT oil

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Hmmm - not sure I would trust what a self-appointed YouTuber thinks over the millions of pounds and resources poured into the e-cvt development by Toyota / Lexus. However, no harm in changing it (IIRC it says to change it if the car is used in harsh conditions, I think) so long as the correct fluid is used, no contamination enters the cvt and it's refilled correctly. The good thing is that the e-cvt is more like a manual box in that regards than a traditional auto and so less likely to have problems than when changing the oil in a traditional auto box.

The e-cvt box in a Toyota is no more like a manual than a Tiptronic box in a Mercedes. And I`ve just covered more than one quarter of a million miles in an E220 cdi Merc without fault.

What needs to be remembered or perhaps learnt, is that the term "for the lifetime of the car" relates to the lifetime of the production of the vehicle, ie 7 years. So, if the first time of registration is the first owner, then he has 7 years of trouble free worry. If the second owner buys the car when it is halfway through the production run, he has 3.5 years of trouble free worry, and so on.

[wharfhouse]

4 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

The e-cvt box in a Toyota is no more like a manual than a Tiptronic box in a Mercedes. And I`ve just covered more than one quarter of a million miles in an E220 cdi Merc without fault.

I agree in that the tech in the e-cvt is of course nothing like a manual box but what I meant is that the e-cvt does not have all of the valves, narrow channels and clutch plates like a traditional auto box and so in that sense is much simpler with planetary gears and so not so much to go wrong or wear out. Agreed that traditional auto boxes can also cover mega miles too, as I have done in the past with 200k+ miles on one. 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, wharfhouse said:

I agree in that the tech in the e-cvt is of course nothing like a manual box but what I meant is that the e-cvt does not have all of the valves, narrow channels and clutch plates like a traditional auto box and so in that sense is much simpler with planetary gears and so not so much to go wrong or wear out. Agreed that traditional auto boxes can also cover mega miles too, as I have done in the past with 200k+ miles on one. 

Yet again Philip, we do not disagree.👍🤣

[Thackeray]

20 hours ago, Notamech said:

I thought about it a little more and I realised one of the reasons i typically change the transmission oil on all used cars I buy is primarily because I don't know how lovingly the car was treated. Especially when its new / has warranty people are more likely to drive it rough because if anything breaks its covered.

One of the advantages of buying a second-hand hybrid Lexus is that you know the transmission has never been in the control of someone driving roughly. It's entirely computer controlled and all the driver can do is make requests to the computer for speed or acceleration via the accelerator position or the simulated "gearchange" controls. Everything the transmission does has been decreed in advance by the engineers who designed the transmission software. By contrast, a manual gearbox can get all kinds of abuse (and maybe damage) from an aggressive driver.

As for the service schedule attached above, it's interesting that it mentions "inverter coolant" replacement at 150,000 miles. As I understand it, the inverter coolant circuit also cools motor generator 1 (MG1) and MG2 which are both integral parts of the transmission, with the water based coolant circulating what must be just centimetres from the transmission oil. If Lexus go to the trouble of specifying coolant replacement for one part of the transmission it looks odd that they don't specify oil replacement within the same unit if it's actually required.

Although they list "automatic transmission" for inspection, I'd suspect that they mean a conventional automatic, not an e-CVT. Toyota make automatics, as well as conventional CVTs too, and the oil recommendation for these wouldn't necessarily apply to a hybrid e-CVT. So why do they mention the automatic in this schedule? I think it's just a general schedule for different types of car. For example, it says inspection is needed for the ancillary drive belt for alternator, power steering and air conditioning. But Lexus hybrids don't have any of these - there's no alternator, the power steering is electric, not belt driven, and so is the air conditoning. This list is obviously not specific to Lexus hybrids.

Having said all that, it seems odd that the differential oil is specified to be changed every 20,000 miles, whereas the oil in the planetary gearset of the e-CVT has no schedule for change, even though conceptually the differential and the e-CVT are quite similar - just a set of permanently engaged cog wheels. I wonder if it's that they've made the judgement that on balance there's more that might go wrong with a careless change of the transmission oil than will go wrong if you leave it untouched from when it leaves the factory. A bit of a mystery.

[Notamech]

2 hours ago, Thackeray said:

One of the advantages of buying a second-hand hybrid Lexus is that you know the transmission has never been in the control of someone driving roughly. It's entirely computer controlled and all the driver can do is make requests to the computer for speed or acceleration via the accelerator position or the simulated "gearchange" controls. Everything the transmission does has been decreed in advance by the engineers who designed the transmission software. By contrast, a manual gearbox can get all kinds of abuse (and maybe damage) from an aggressive driver.

As for the service schedule attached above, it's interesting that it mentions "inverter coolant" replacement at 150,000 miles. As I understand it, the inverter coolant circuit also cools motor generator 1 (MG1) and MG2 which are both integral parts of the transmission, with the water based coolant circulating what must be just centimetres from the transmission oil. If Lexus go to the trouble of specifying coolant replacement for one part of the transmission it looks odd that they don't specify oil replacement within the same unit if it's actually required.

Although they list "automatic transmission" for inspection, I'd suspect that they mean a conventional automatic, not an e-CVT. Toyota make automatics, as well as conventional CVTs too, and the oil recommendation for these wouldn't necessarily apply to a hybrid e-CVT. So why do they mention the automatic in this schedule? I think it's just a general schedule for different types of car. For example, it says inspection is needed for the ancillary drive belt for alternator, power steering and air conditioning. But Lexus hybrids don't have any of these - there's no alternator, the power steering is electric, not belt driven, and so is the air conditoning. This list is obviously not specific to Lexus hybrids.

Having said all that, it seems odd that the differential oil is specified to be changed every 20,000 miles, whereas the oil in the planetary gearset of the e-CVT has no schedule for change, even though conceptually the differential and the e-CVT are quite similar - just a set of permanently engaged cog wheels. I wonder if it's that they've made the judgement that on balance there's more that might go wrong with a careless change of the transmission oil than will go wrong if you leave it untouched from when it leaves the factory. A bit of a mystery.

Thats good to know. While i understand that some of the checks in the service schedule may be generic. The manual at the start does say that it is specific to IS300h variants i dont think they make an IS300h with a regular torque converter transmission, do they? Also the car does infact have a drivebelt for the waterpump which im sure needs checking. But I agree its a strange mystery as to why they dont recommend changing the cvt oil. My understanding is that all oil eventually breaks down and degrades / oxidises/ turns acidic not to mention im sure there must be metal debris from the friction between the gear teeth, its inevitable. Theres only so much that the magnet can catch. Like someone else mentioned when they say lifetime they probably have a 7-10 year timeframe in mind. Even then i reckon it should have figured somewhere in the service schedule. Maybe I'll mail lexus to see if they have an answer and what their official stand on the issue is. 

[Bluemarlin]

4 minutes ago, Notamech said:

Maybe I'll mail lexus to see if they have an answer and what their official stand on the issue is. 

My guess is they'll tell you it never needs changing.

In truth you could go round in circles debating whether it needs to be done or not and never reach a definitive conclusion.  In my view you've had one Lexus dealer quote you £150 for a drain and refill, so if you think it will bother you then get it done at what seems a reasonable price, but if not then don't.

An interesting experiment if you do might be to ask them for the old oil, and then send it off for analysis,  a basic one is about £30. At least that way you'd get an idea if it ever needs to be done again. To be honest I wish I thought of that when I had mine done.

[Thackeray]

3 hours ago, Thackeray said:

it mentions "inverter coolant" replacement at 150,000 miles

I've just noticed from a document on the internet about the 2007 Camry that at that time Toyota was recommending inverter coolant replacement at 100,000 miles. For the very similar setup on the IS300h it's now 150.000. So it may be that they revise the recommendation in the light of experience.

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, Thackeray said:

I've just noticed from a document on the internet about the 2007 Camry that at that time Toyota was recommending inverter coolant replacement at 100,000 miles. For the very similar setup on the IS300h it's now 150.000. So it may be that they revise the recommendation in the light of experience.

If I remember correctly the coolant in 2007 was Toyota long life coolant, and that some years later they came out with super long life coolant, which is supposed to last longer.

[Mr_Groundhog]

I would be careful with these things and, by default, abide by the manual/service book. I doubt any dealership knows more about the car than the Lexus engineers and designers that made the car.

Recently, I had to nag the dealership to do something that was clearly scheduled on the service book (differential oil change), and they were saying it wasn't needed:

 

[Notamech]

Just an update on this. So I got hold of the workshop manual and its very clear that toyota dont use any special blend of chemicals or magic portion from the factory that must not be tampered with. The workshop manual clearly details the procedure to drain and refill the hybrid transaxle and specifies using ATF WS. So i have booked it in with Lexus Hayes for tomorrow to get it done. They've quoted £130. Will update once ive got it done if I notice any improvement in smoothness etc. I guess it probably wont make any difference but at least I'll know theres good fluid in there. 

[Notamech]

Finally got this done today. Cost me £130. No real difference could be felt but at times I did feel it was peppier in eco mode not sure if its just a placebo. But at least i have peace of mind now that I don't have to worry about the oil going bad at least for as long as I plan to keep it. 

[Mr_Groundhog]

14 hours ago, Notamech said:

Finally got this done today. Cost me £130. No real difference could be felt but at times I did feel it was peppier in eco mode not sure if its just a placebo. But at least i have peace of mind now that I don't have to worry about the oil going bad at least for as long as I plan to keep it. 

Sometimes peace of mind, and knowing you did the right thing, is all that matters. I nagged them to change the diff oil for the same reason.
For others it is always easy to be careless with someone else's car (i.e. someone else's money).