ES300H TAKUMI - wheel arch CAN BUS theft

[Imran Mirza]

1 hour ago, Cs150 said:

It is really sad Imran to have to take so many extra measures to protect a vehicle when the manufacturer could do more in terms of native protection. Have to go to London later this month and may take the wife's Ford rather than the ES! 

That might potentially be worth it, prevention is better than cure

[RONNIE W HODGEKINSON]

IRONICALLY Tony A professional car Thief will have this off in around 90 seconds ..We Can only hope that we are dealing with the Majority of Halfwits that are Opportunists Who are out for a joyride or Simply to take what is not There,s.. The NEVERWIZARDS of Society.. However if a professional car Pig wants your car ITS OFF..!!!!!!!!!!!

[SH20]

Carl, my understanding of the scrolling key code is that it does change frequently but all a scanning tool needs is sufficient time to record one new code in order to activate the car and once the car is open the stolen code tricks the car into starting.  The original method of accessing this code was to stand outside your house and offer up the scanner in order to pick up the key code when  the owner simply leaves the keys on a hall way dresser or in a bedroom etc.  Once people started to put their keys into an isolation pouch to block the key signal that just made the thieves consider accessing the car's CAN bus via the wiring of the headlamp usually the near side headlamp.   Youtube is stuffed with videos of  Lexus Cars having their front bumper forced back on one side giving access to the back of the headlamp.   They then pull the wiring off the back of the headlamp and connect their CAN bus interface device to the headlamp wiring.   Because their is no encryption to the car's security/immobiliser it tales only seconds to activate the car's starting procedure and the car is gone. 

I have just purchased a wheel clamp not because I believe they are infallible but to slow down  a potential thief when confronted with a mechanical device which would take more time to overcome.   A Blink camera pointing at the car and a Ring doorbell camera at my home may also make a thief move on.     However in reality thieves don't  give a monkey's what you have in security  to protect your property.  Thieves know we are society that pat's them on the head if caught  and wants to understand their problems that make them steal.   Does anyone know how car thieves are dealt with in Saudi Arabia or don't they have any I wonder? 

(The Controller Area Network (CAN bus) is a message-based protocol designed to allow the Electronic Control Units (ECUs) found in today's cars, to communicate with each other in a reliable, priority-driven fashion).

 

 

 

[SH20]

There will be more expensive anti theft devices out there, in particularly electronic devices but they are hidden somewhere in the vehicle and while very sophisticated, it's the damage to the car in an attempt to steal it, e.g. damage to front bumpers, trims and of course the collision damage which may occur in the hands of thieves leading to an expensive insurance claim.   I want a visible barrier to get past first before the vehicle's CAN bus is accessed.   Like other comments I think it is a disgrace that Lexus do nothing about the ease by which their product can be stolen.  Shame on them.

[cdmaskell]

 My son lives in Ashtead Surrey and has an ES p/p 21 plate. Was concerned by black Mercedes with 4 occupants had been cruising the area for several days. We’re confronted by a resident but were somewhat aggressive! Tonight after my neighbour noticed that the occupants of the car were holding a small black box near the location of my sons car. He informed the police who then rapidly descended on the street. They indicated that they were after my sons car! The Black Merc has been found to be untaxed etc and came from up north. Thefts are prolific in Ashtead, Surrey area. How do we protect our cars?

[cdmaskell]

Reg number of BMW, not a Mercedes, YR08 RXF.

[ColinBarber]

Something visual such as a disklok steering wheel lock is probably best because it should stop someone even attempting to steal the vehicle. Otherwise a 3rd party immobiliser designed to stop CAN bus attacks would prevent theft, but that won't stop a thief trying and possibly damaging the vehicle.

[JamesIS220]

A vicious dog who lives in the car! That would surprise them. Use plenty of sheets to protect from blood splatter!

If only we could! Sadly be arrested. If on drive some bollards, but if really valuable may break into your home and confront you for the keys.

James.

[e-yes]

No wonder my insurance went up from around £400 to around £1200 !

Why aren't these thieves interested in Range Rovers or BMW X any more ?

--E

[Mincey]

57 minutes ago, e-yes said:

No wonder my insurance went up from around £400 to around £1200 !

Why aren't these thieves interested in Range Rovers or BMW X any more ?

--E

Criminals have clearly worked out that they're more likely to escape in a Lexus than a mechanically fragile Scheissewagen or Range Rover.

[Boomer54]

2 hours ago, e-yes said:

No wonder my insurance went up from around £400 to around £1200 !

Why aren't these thieves interested in Range Rovers or BMW X any more ?

--E

Because they have good taste?

[Spock66]

I guess the small black box was a key relay theft attempt, so make sure keys are stored in a Faraday cage which has been tested.

[cdmaskell]

After looking at advice from previous threads on the ES theft. Son has purchased a Stoplock Pro Elite.

[Boomer54]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

Because they have good taste?

Indeed, thinking outside the box for a security solution we need a blowup cover to drop over the Lexus that makes it look like a Range Rover !

[Mincey]

45 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Indeed, thinking outside the box for a security solution we need a blowup cover to drop over the Lexus that makes it look like a Range Rover !

I like your thinking!

[Cs150]

Lexus sadly seem to have abandoned customers with this serious issue. Lexus UK typically ignore customers raising this issue with them or at best send a templated condescending response. To avoid damage by the criminals a disklock, stoplock or similar or even clamp seem appropriate. Apparently an encryption update to the Canbus was added to MY23 build but I am unable to validate the date this was done? Can the criminals still get past this update, possibly?

[kam]

Like i've suggested in other threads. For the sake of keyless entry, why risk having your car stolen, just turn this feature off. Additional purchase some sort of Steering Wheel anti-theft device and then your protected from Can-bus opportunist car thief too.

[Cs150]

2 hours ago, kam said:

Like i've suggested in other threads. For the sake of keyless entry, why risk having your car stolen, just turn this feature off. Additional purchase some sort of Steering Wheel anti-theft device and then your protected from Can-bus opportunist car thief too.

Agree but Lexus should delete keyless entry from the vehicle specification as it cannot be used with reasonable levels of security. Presumably activating the unlock button manually can also be captured and used in a replay or extension type attack? Personally I believe Lexus should fund as part of a recall package installation of a third party approved immobiliser. Given the way the Lexus brand sees customers especially in the UK this of course would not happen. The values and original Lexus ethics of the late 80s when the brand was launched would not leave customers in a vulnerable position like they have currently.

[rayaans]

7 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

Agree but Lexus should delete keyless entry from the vehicle specification as it cannot be used with reasonable levels of security. Presumably activating the unlock button manually can also be captured and used in a replay or extension type attack? Personally I believe Lexus should fund as part of a recall package installation of a third party approved immobiliser. Given the way the Lexus brand sees customers especially in the UK this of course would not happen. The values and original Lexus ethics of the late 80s when the brand was launched would not leave customers in a vulnerable position like they have currently.

This is an utterly ridiculous post.

Firstly, this is not a Lexus only issue, many vehicles with keyless entry have exactly the same problem. I can't see any other manufacturers offering anything vaguely similiar to what you have suggested. 

Additionally, security risks have always existed. Its the owners responsibility to protect their vehicle too and there is an option to turn the keyless entry off, either temporarily through the buttons on the keyfob or in the menus of the infotainment system permanently. Third party immobilisers are available as well. 

All my cars have had keyless entry since 2012. Lexus as a manufacturer have fitted keyless entry to their car and as far as their responsibility lies, its to provide the option to turn it off if the owner wants to. They have no further responsibility whatsoever apart from that. 

[Cs150]

2 minutes ago, rayaans said:

This is an utterly ridiculous post.

Firstly, this is not a Lexus only issue, many vehicles with keyless entry have exactly the same problem. I can't see any other manufacturers offering anything vaguely similiar to what you have suggested. 

Additionally, security risks have always existed. Its the owners responsibility to protect their vehicle too and there is an option to turn the keyless entry off, either temporarily through the buttons on the keyfob or in the menus of the infotainment system permanently. Third party immobilisers are available as well. 

All my cars have had keyless entry since 2012. Lexus as a manufacturer have fitted keyless entry to their car and as far as their responsibility lies, its to provide the option to turn it off if the owner wants to. They have no further responsibility whatsoever apart from that. 

Of course anything that does not meet your specific opinions must be ridiculous. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing. As you say security risks have always existed and this does provide full and robust justification of the current position....

[rayaans]

1 minute ago, Cs150 said:

Of course anything that does not meet your specific opinions must be ridiculous. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing. As you say security risks have always existed and this does provide full and robust justification of the current position....

I genuinely dont see what your problem is. 

Its ignorant to suggest that keyless entry should be removed from the specification list. Many owners use it everyday and find it extremely useful. They are either willing to take the risk of keeping it active, or adding their own aftermarket devices to protect their vehicle.

Your "Solution" suggests removing it entirely and giving owners no choice whatsoever

[Cs150]

2 hours ago, rayaans said:

I genuinely dont see what your problem is. 

Its ignorant to suggest that keyless entry should be removed from the specification list. Many owners use it everyday and find it extremely useful. They are either willing to take the risk of keeping it active, or adding their own aftermarket devices to protect their vehicle.

Your "Solution" suggests removing it entirely and giving owners no choice whatsoever

Not sure about ignorance, sounds like classic cognitive dissonance which would appear to be quite common in the current society of 'Modern' Britain. This situation is no different than Microsoft releasing a hands free convenient method to access Windows. This method is prone to allowing the operating system to be hacked in a production real world setting. In order to protect your Windows system against this flaw you need to fit a physical keyboard lock to make up for this shortcoming! Lexus like other vehicle makers have failed to provide keyless entry with reasonable levels of security. There is no reason why the keyless system cannot have symmetric end to end encryption with keys rotating every few seconds. This would result in MITM attacks being practically impossible. The current deployment of keyless is not secure within a real world environment and therefore you could argue it is misselling to state that this is a vehicle feature which in reality could cause an owner to have the car stolen. The current deployment of keyless is not fit for purpose in its current insecure form. Then there is the Cambus operating without encryption at least until MY23 vehicles, not exactly secure by design!

[NemesisUK]

Must admit to thinking rolling key codes have been in use for remote locking/unlocking for many, many years now.

[rayaans]

49 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

Not sure about ignorance, sounds like classic cognitive dissonance which would appear to be quite common in the current society of 'Modern' Britain. This situation is no different than Microsoft releasing a hands free convenient method to access Windows. This method is prone to allowing the operating system to be hacked in a production real world setting. In order to protect your Windows system against this flaw you need to fit a physical keyboard lock to make up for this shortcoming! Lexus like other vehicle makers have failed to provide keyless entry with reasonable levels of security. There is no reason why the keyless system cannot have symmetric end to end encryption with keys rotating every few seconds. This would result in MITM attacks being practically impossible. The current deployment of keyless is not secure within a real world environment and therefore you could argue it is misselling to state that this is a vehicle feature which in reality could cause an owner to have the car stolen. The current deployment of keyless is not fit for purpose in its current insecure form. Then there is the Cambus operating without encryption at least until MY23 vehicles, not exactly secure by design!

I have no idea about IT and therefore can't comment on most of what you have written above. 

Keyless cars have been in existence for a long time. The keyless theft didn't become a huge issue until about 2-3 years ago. Again, with the canbus issues, the RXs have been out since 2016 and these thefts have only started about 1 year ago. The point being is that most things can be "cracked" and cars stolen given enough time has passed. 

The solutions are available - i.e. turn off the keyless feature if you prefer and it is a well enough known problem covered by the media that the general public should know by now about this. 

[Cs150]

18 minutes ago, rayaans said:

I have no idea about IT and therefore can't comment on most of what you have written above. 

Keyless cars have been in existence for a long time. The keyless theft didn't become a huge issue until about 2-3 years ago. Again, with the canbus issues, the RXs have been out since 2016 and these thefts have only started about 1 year ago. The point being is that most things can be "cracked" and cars stolen given enough time has passed. 

The solutions are available - i.e. turn off the keyless feature if you prefer and it is a well enough known problem covered by the media that the general public should know by now about this. 

Brochure items that are formally listed as part of the specification should not have to be turned off to protect the asset. They are being advertised as "features" and selling points. Alternatively in the brochure for the car there could be a disclaimer that states it may put the vehicle at increased risk of theft. Of course all things can be "cracked" especially when security is not part of the original design! Manufacturers in other industries will address new security vulnerabilities with fixes, updates or recalls. The position Lexus have taken shows an almost distain for the customer.