ES300H TAKUMI - wheel arch CAN BUS theft

[NemesisUK]

8 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

The position Lexus have taken shows an almost distain for the customer.

What position have other marques taken, in relation to theft prevention?

[Cs150]

4 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

What position have other marques taken, in relation to theft prevention?

Good question, Jaguar did switch to using UWB (Ultra-Wide-Band) which uses increased ranges which could be argued is security by obscurity and certainly somewhat proactive. Ford not sure when started to fit motion sensors so the fob stops sending out a signal to minimise exposure when static, not perfect responses of course and falls short of symmetric encryption. What have Lexus UK done?

[NemesisUK]

30 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

What have Lexus UK done?

New models are now using UWB and motion sensitive fobs (not 100% on the latter)

Manufacturers are always playing catch-up as thieves crack the latest security features. I remember thieves using half a tennis ball over the car door lock, a sharp thump and the lock popped open!

How about adopting thumb print locks? Or face recognition, voice activation .... 

[Dippo]

On 10/7/2023 at 4:16 PM, Cs150 said:

Apparently an encryption update to the Canbus was added to MY23 build but I am unable to validate the date this was done? Can the criminals still get past this update, possibly?

Will Lexus be writing to all known and potential car thieves to give them the affected chassis range? That way, the scrotes could check the visible VIN to see if there was any point in damaging your car by pulling away the front bumper to access the wiring.

[rayaans]

16 hours ago, Cs150 said:

Brochure items that are formally listed as part of the specification should not have to be turned off to protect the asset. They are being advertised as "features" and selling points. Alternatively in the brochure for the car there could be a disclaimer that states it may put the vehicle at increased risk of theft. Of course all things can be "cracked" especially when security is not part of the original design! Manufacturers in other industries will address new security vulnerabilities with fixes, updates or recalls. The position Lexus have taken shows an almost distain for the customer.

They don't have to be turned off. Its up to the owner whether they want to take the risk or not and regardless, they are still a feature and selling point irrespective of their security issues. Think about new home which are built - theyre sold with locks which can be snapped in less than 10s by a burglar. The owner upgrades these locks or takes the risk and I dont think the home companies provide a disclaimer suggesting that their house is at risk of being burgled due to the locks that have been fitted.

Cars still get stolen without keyless entry - thieves frequently enter homes to grab the keys even now. 

[Cs150]

11 minutes ago, rayaans said:

They don't have to be turned off. Its up to the owner whether they want to take the risk or not and regardless,

Indeed but the brochure should have a disclaimer that using this feature could cause increased risk of theft. Vehicle features increasing the risk profile should be made clear. Imagine if Microsoft released a Windows feature and advertised this as an owner\user benefit but it may cause loss of an asset!

[wharfhouse]

Just posted this on another post but thought it was relevant here:

Just read about a car that was stolen from outside a house while the owners were asleep in the house. The owner had done what they thought was right - keys in a Faraday pouch and steering lock fitted. To steal the car the thieves simply broke into the house by forcing the back door, let the owners dog out to roam the streets to keep it quiet, found the car keys in the pouch, and took the car. The only other thing the owner could do would have been to keep the steering lock key separate to the car keys, but as they said they wouldn't like to think how they may have been confronted by the thieves in that case.

I know in some cases thieves wouldn't want to confront owners, but the more one protects the car and the less they can get without entering a property the more likely it could be that thieves end up breaking in to a house to get the keys and then may cause physical harm to the occupants in the process... certainly stating to hear more of these cases where they know they can't get the car any other way than breaking into the house to find the car keys.

Simple fact is whatever the manufacturers such brute force like this will always overcome it of they really want the car.

[Boomer54]

19 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Just posted this on another post but thought it was relevant here:

Just read about a car that was stolen from outside a house while the owners were asleep in the house. The owner had done what they thought was right - keys in a Faraday pouch and steering lock fitted. To steal the car the thieves simply broke into the house by forcing the back door, let the owners dog out to roam the streets to keep it quiet, found the car keys in the pouch, and took the car. The only other thing the owner could do would have been to keep the steering lock key separate to the car keys, but as they said they wouldn't like to think how they may have been confronted by the thieves in that case.

I know in some cases thieves wouldn't want to confront owners, but the more one protects the car and the less they can get without entering a property the more likely it could be that thieves end up breaking in to a house to get the keys and then may cause physical harm to the occupants in the process... certainly stating to hear more of these cases where they know they can't get the car any other way than breaking into the house to find the car keys.

Simple fact is whatever the manufacturers such brute force like this will always overcome it of they really want the car.

Really we are now going well beyond simple car theft are we not? Conceptually, if you have a high value asset that is highly visible then you are probably not safe using the ordinary ,or normal means available on the high street. Of course all of this is a matter of statistical probability. If this sort of theft becomes a higher probability then the cost of protecting against it must be factored into deciding to acquire the asset at the outset.

For example, you cannot hide a very expensive house, but of course if you can afford that then you can likely afford the necessary level of protection to make it very secure. I think we are arriving at a time with vehicles when people buying pretty high value cars (higher than ever, thanks EV), you might wish to start looking at the cost of protective measures before you even buy. perhaps steering wheel devices and the like are going to become just not enough.

[wharfhouse]

9 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Really we are now going well beyond simple car theft are we not? Conceptually, if you have a high value asset that is highly visible then you are probably not safe using the ordinary ,or normal means available on the high street. Of course all of this is a matter of statistical probability. If this sort of theft becomes a higher probability then the cost of protecting against it must be factored into deciding to acquire the asset at the outset.

For example, you cannot hide a very expensive house, but of course if you can afford that then you can likely afford the necessary level of protection to make it very secure. I think we are arriving at a time with vehicles when people buying pretty high value cars (higher than ever, thanks EV), you might wish to start looking at the cost of protective measures before you even buy. perhaps steering wheel devices and the like are going to become just not enough.

Yes, run-of-the-mill cars with some deterrents on is going to stop your average thief / joy rider who will look elsewhere but if you have a high value car, which are specifically being targeted (including Lexus it seems), adding more visible or invisible deterrents (whether by the manufacturer or after-market) isn't going to stop the illicit demand for these cars. If the cars become harder to take by "remote" means then the only recourse for thieves will be confronting owners in their homes for the keys / codes or whatever. So the only alternative is that owners of these cars will need to find ways to take these cars out of the reach of thieves, which may involve putting them behind upgraded security in their own homes, and securing their own homes better against break-ins (which for many people with high value assets they probably do already). Of course, there is a high cost to this, but if certain cars continue to get stolen to order, ultimately by thieves demanding the keys if they have no other way of taking them and the demand is still there, insurance premiums levied on these cars will likely to take them out of the reach of most people unless they demonstrabely can put the cars under much more security. 

[Boomer54]

11 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Yes, run-of-the-mill cars with some deterrents on is going to stop your average thief / joy rider who will look elsewhere but if you have a high value car, which are specifically being targeted (including Lexus it seems), adding more visible or invisible deterrents (whether by the manufacturer or after-market) isn't going to stop the illicit demand for these cars. If the cars become harder to take by "remote" means then the only recourse for thieves will be confronting owners in their homes for the keys / codes or whatever. So the only alternative is that owners of these cars will need to find ways to take these cars out of the reach of thieves, which may involve putting them behind upgraded security in their own homes, and securing their own homes better against break-ins (which for many people with high value assets they probably do already). Of course, there is a high cost to this, but if certain cars continue to get stolen to order, ultimately by thieves demanding the keys if they have no other way of taking them and the demand is still there, insurance premiums levied on these cars will likely to take them out of the reach of most people unless they demonstrabely can put the cars under much more security. 

Yes, I think that may be where this is going to end up.

Meanwhile my assistant will take care of business. Note to burglar, consider carefully the value of one or more of your arms and the loss thereof. This dog will not leave to wander the street unless he is dragging you along behind him as a trophy. Ironically, this isn't a cheap option either. £1000 to buy him. More than that to get his training where you would want it to be. Then vets, food etc. Low tech ,not low cost. We do of course love him just as much as the SC 430. 😀

[wharfhouse]

6 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Yes, I think that may be where this is going to end up.

Meanwhile my assistant will take care of business. Note to burglar, consider carefully the value of one or more of your arms and the loss thereof. This dog will not leave to wander the street unless he is dragging you along behind him as a trophy. Ironically, this isn't a cheap option either. £1000 to buy him. More than that to get his training where you would want it to be. Then vets, food etc. Low tech ,not low cost. We do of course love him just as much as the SC 430. 😀

 

Unfortunately our cocker spaniel would just go and lick anyone breaking in...

[Boomer54]

11 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Unfortunately our cocker spaniel would just go and lick anyone breaking in...

Put a note on his collar 'I come with the car. I trump a lot so colour your s*x life dead and buried)

[Cs150]

2 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

 

Simple fact is whatever the manufacturers such brute force like this will always overcome it of they really want the car.

Agreed, high value items though need increased protection. Which is why a bank would have high security compared to a retail store. It could be argued a Lexus ES needs greater protection than a Toyota Aygo. My ES fob appears to have no motion sensor to disable keyless when inactive, why would this not be present on such a new design? As mentioned previously there is no reasonable reason strong symmetric encryption cannot be used. For what is essentially high value items enough is not being done by the manufacturers to protect them. In my eyes at least Lexus has been most disappointing when it comes to proactive measures. Fitting a steel plate to the RX to make up for the design flaw of Canbus access is quite frankly a little embarrassing. Then the ES and other vehicles at risk of poorly designed wiring access appear to be ignored and are not even worthy of a steel plate!

[Mincey]

When I was fiddling around with Carista, one of the options was to turn off the communication between key and car after a number of days (I think it was 0-5). I set mine to 0. I've no idea if this makes any difference but I still turn the key off when I get home.

[wharfhouse]

36 minutes ago, Cs150 said:

Agreed, high value items though need increased protection. Which is why a bank would have high security compared to a retail store. It could be argued a Lexus ES needs greater protection than a Toyota Aygo. My ES fob appears to have no motion sensor to disable keyless when inactive, why would this not be present on such a new design? As mentioned previously there is no reasonable reason strong symmetric encryption cannot be used. For what is essentially high value items enough is not being done by the manufacturers to protect them. In my eyes at least Lexus has been most disappointing when it comes to proactive measures. Fitting a steel plate to the RX to make up for the design flaw of Canbus access is quite frankly a little embarrassing. Then the ES and other vehicles at risk of poorly designed wiring access appear to be ignored and are not even worthy of a steel plate!

Agreed that manufacturers need to keep improving protection, but my point is the criminal fraternity quickly either get one step ahead of them or if they can't will resort to more intrusive strong-arm tactics to get keys etc. which could mean losing more than just the car. There isn't a simple answer whilst such lawlessness is at large and the police do not seem inclined (or do not have the resources) to bring this under control.

[Navnan2]

2 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Agreed that manufacturers need to keep improving protection, but my point is the criminal fraternity quickly either get one step ahead of them or if they can't will resort to more intrusive strong-arm tactics to get keys etc. which could mean losing more than just the car. There isn't a simple answer whilst such lawlessness is at large and the police do not seem inclined (or do not have the resources) to bring this under control.

I agree with you. It's sad that there isn't any police deterrent anymore and those scrotes out there know it and blatantly patrol our streets with confidence to pick and chose their next victim as and when it suits them. I have fortunately have a single lane front drive and make sure my UX is parked with a less appealing vehicle behind it. The same will go for when my ES arrives.

[DrShockr]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:37 AM, NICO1972 said:

I am really sorry to hear for your situation. Something quite similar happened with my 2019 ES300h 2 nights ago ie on the evening of Wednesday 20th Sept 2023 at 23:04 hours, a car was seen slowing down as soon as it was passing by my ES and it drove back to park behind it with headlights on (that information is gathered thanks to CCTV of my property) I had 2 other cars parked on my way drive so the ES was left on the side pavement just outside the property. I could see one person stepping out of the front passenger of that suspicious vehicle (so the driver stayed inside the vehicle) - their lights were on to give visibility for the other male to operate. But thanks goodness I had a Metratrik Plus immobiliser fitted into my car a few months ago (Lexus staff had informed me that unfortunately the OEM immobiliser is not enough to protect this car) so the thieves failed to steal it and left within 6 minutes. Their device would have showed that this car is fitted with this additional immobiliser. But I did not know anything until the next morning, as when I started the car, the left headlight showed a fault and was not working at all. It was only when I phoned Lexus that they told me to check the side bumper to the archway wheel if it has been pulled out. And it was exactly what happened. The thieves attempted stealing that way by disconnecting the headlight. I am glad I have this system installed. If you need the name of the engineer and contact details (who was by the way recommended by Lexus staff), send me a Direct message and I will give you his details. It saved my car and I think you should have it done ASAP...

Thanks, Nick, sorry didn't see this until now! Very useful info to know. I am actually looking to sell my ES. After it took over 3 months to get my car back, I have had additional problems and it had to go back in to them again and still waiting to get it back. I spent a very long time researching this car and still do like it but the emotional trauma associated with the theft and the very lengthy subsequent repair process has left me with quite a negative feeling towards this car. I might move away from Lexus altogether, which is indeed quite sad as I've been driving Toyota/Lexus hybrids exclusively for over a decade.

[SH20]

This is what really hacks me off when a loyal customer who, like me has driven Lexus and Toyota cars for years has to consider changing brands because Lexus couldn't give a monkey's if they do and   all because of the failure of Lexus to provide adequate anti theft measures to their product range.    Not withstanding useless Insurers/Repair shops who don't fulfill their obligations in a reasonable time frame.   Lexus cars world wide are one of the most likely to be stolen because they are pitifully easy to steal.  Owning a car eventually will just become too much of a headache in addition to the stealth taxes they are subject to by every Government since Adam was a lad.  The motorist is a cash cow, from fuel duty, road tax, insurance and UK new car prices all of which are going only in one direction - UP 

[SH20]

Saw a video clip on Youtube from the US where a thief on a motorcycle held up a couple in their car .  The scum bag parked his bike behind the car but in the opposite direction the car was facing.  After he robbed the couple he got back on the bike and as he pulled away the car driver reversed his car at speed and rammed  the bike and thief  into a parked car crushing him dead.   He was then arrested and charged.  One less thief but at what cost. 

[GMB]

I tried to find out if the IS models are vulnerable but got conflicting info. - Searches on the internet are always conflicting🙄

Does anyone know if the 2016/17 IS models or the 2011/13  Isf are affected?

I have seen no reports of thefts but maybe nobody wants them or knows what they are?

I have seen quite a few cars, all sorts of models, on the road with the passenger wheel arch trim damaged.

[ColinBarber]

41 minutes ago, GMB said:

Does anyone know if the 2016/17 IS models

Yes - MY17 onwards (factory built from Oct 2016)

41 minutes ago, GMB said:

the 2011/13  Isf

No

[LenT]

13 hours ago, SH20 said:

One less thief but at what cost. 

Possibly a badly scratched rear bumper section?

Mind you, it would be interesting to know if the driver faced any prosecution or might instead claim that being so traumatised by the threat to life that, in trying to escape, inadvertently selected reverse.

This recent news item demonstrates the sometimes unappreciated and fatal risks that thieves face while just trying to earn a dishonest living.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-02-15/catalytic-converter-theft-death-los-angeles-county

[Daguerrotype]

Forget steering locks- they just delay thieves.  Faraday cage didn’t stop them stealing mine.  Police say hiding lots of ‘tags’ in several places has helped them recover cars.

[Cs150]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:54 PM, SH20 said:

This is what really hacks me off when a loyal customer who, like me has driven Lexus and Toyota cars for years has to consider changing brands because Lexus couldn't give a monkey's 

As a first time Lexus customer it has been a real eye opener the poor dealer experience. Additionally the Lexus UK fob off by default experience has also been a surprise. Always thought Lexus listened and acted on customer feedback but it is clear to me the opposite is true of the current Lexus brand in the UK. Perhaps in the past it differed but today there is nothing 'premium' about Lexus to me relating to interfacing with the dealer or Lexus UK. Also not keen on having to fit steering locks and be overly concerned about the security.

Have no finance on the ES but after another year of ownership will almost certainly part ways with it, unless the security issue could be resolved which of course it will not. Would be happier to go back to an old Ford Mondeo which is not a target for criminals or potentially get a second hand Prius, for some reason like the shape of the Gen 4 Prius.

[rayaans]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:54 PM, SH20 said:

This is what really hacks me off when a loyal customer who, like me has driven Lexus and Toyota cars for years has to consider changing brands because Lexus couldn't give a monkey's if they do and   all because of the failure of Lexus to provide adequate anti theft measures to their product range.    Not withstanding useless Insurers/Repair shops who don't fulfill their obligations in a reasonable time frame.   Lexus cars world wide are one of the most likely to be stolen because they are pitifully easy to steal.  Owning a car eventually will just become too much of a headache in addition to the stealth taxes they are subject to by every Government since Adam was a lad.  The motorist is a cash cow, from fuel duty, road tax, insurance and UK new car prices all of which are going only in one direction - UP 

I mean, I had a repair job sent to Lexus and it took a week - whole rear bumper repair. It really does depend on which dealer / bodyshop you use. I use the RRG bodyshop in Bolton by the way just in case anyone needs to use them for Lexus cars. For any insurance work you can use your own repairer