Hydrogen nearly there then .... the Ls700h maybe

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

Agreed, and for big ship engines and even truck diesels that is a good retrofit system,... if it ever gets out of the lab.
But for passenger cars it's almost certainly going to be Battery Electric Vehicles and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles.
I'm not a fan of Battery vehicles either but they are available today, and they work well within certain limits.
Personally I have always preferred the idea of Fuel Cell vehicles as they are more flexible than BEVs.

When enough EV's need new batteries and if / when batteries become hard to get; EV’s can probably be converted to fuel cell powered cars. So far, most cars are made with combustion engines and converting these to run on hydrogen is as possible as converting them to liquid gas. NOx from hydrogen burning engines can be reduced by recirculating exhaust, some claim to have reached 80% less, but not stable. It is a new thing that we care about pollution, before nobody was interested in how much gasoline a car was using and how much it threw out of poison, it just went up in the air, you did not need to stand behind a car and let engine run in closed garages.

[Las Palmas]

[ALAW]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:22 AM, Malc1 said:

something along the lines of BP already starting to develop their own Hydrogen " cracking " facility somewhere in the north of England ....  a good starting point to roll out UK wide to their BP branded petrol / fuel stations when appropriate methinks

Malc

Sure i heard of a facility at Hull to be built

[ALAW]

The local authority seem have a few cllrs in favour of hydrogen. Personally i think this is the way to go.

[Las Palmas]

It is easy to understand why electric cars got the big first go instead of hydrogen cars. Those making decisions did not bother investigate pro and contra, advantages and disadvantages, availability of raw material and a lot of other things. (I am friendly, not saying they were bribed or stupid.)

As usual the easiest solution was chosen.

Good:

We have electric power in our houses (the poor living in flats, are not counting) so cars can be charged when not used and other charging places would come slowly and that would be that.

Hydrogen would the other hand did need refuelling stations as we do not have hydrogen in our houses.

Not so good:

Batteries have rather limited life compared to combustion engines, so what?

Material to make batteries is not sufficient to all the cars needing batteries, so what?

Not all people are idiots and slowly, some start to realise that it may not be a good idea to demand that all cars shall be EV’s:

California is on track to fully implement its ambitious hydrogen fuelling station network. With over 176 stations expected by 2026, the state stands a good chance of meeting Assembly Bill 8’s goal of at least 100 stations before 2023 (currently there are 53 open, 9 unavailable, 9 in construction, 23 in permitting, 5 on hold and 7 proposed) and Governor Brown’s executive order B-48-18 target for 200 locations in total. Moreover, CARB analysis suggests that this ever-growing infrastructure could be financially self-sufficient as early as 2030—ushering in renewable energy transport solutions throughout California! Should they be adequately implemented, it will be interesting to see how zero-emission vehicle trends continue.

As soon as batteries start to be so poor, that range is no longer acceptable and owners find out how much it cost to get a new (probably from China) installed in the cars that otherwise still are almost like new, more will start to look for alternatives. For such cars fuel-cells could be a good alternative to batteries, might be expensive to convert/upgrade the cars, but - so what?

And for us old petrolheads that like combustion engines and think of just letting these engines become landfill is not acceptable, when the hydrogen filling stations become available, we may get real cars with real engines and those that want electric cars can have fuel-cells. Hydrogen is made of water and return to water, so there should not be shortage of fuel.

I sure hope this works because earth will become a toxic waste dump with Battery powered cars.

Too bad that the wrong solution was the first chosen, but – what can we learn from that?

Are we interested in learning?

Maybe not!

Am I sarcastic?

[dutchie01]

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/are-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-the-future/

Jumping into conclusions rather than sarcastic John?

[Malc1]

Methinks it all gong to be quite simpler than Govt and the skeptiks might think  

Toyota as a global mass manufacturer has already developed Hydrogen Cars  .  and more........

Building Hydrogen powered HGVs engines etc in the UK upcoming and

BP is developing it's Hydrogen Fuel production in the UK AND  quite central ( in the north of England ) to be able to feed out to each and every BP petrol station in the UK  .  OK

OK  OK  OK  for certain ............. these monster very very clever businesses really really do know what they're doing and more importantly

 ................ MUCH more so than any Govt of the day or of any day too

So then, where's my hydrogen powered ....... Lexus Ls700  🤩

Malc

[Las Palmas]

19 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

Methinks it all gong to be quite simpler than Govt and the skeptiks might think  

Toyota as a global mass manufacturer has already developed Hydrogen Cars  .  and more........

Building Hydrogen powered HGVs engines etc in the UK upcoming and

BP is developing it's Hydrogen Fuel production in the UK AND  quite central ( in the north of England ) to be able to feed out to each and every BP petrol station in the UK  .  OK

OK  OK  OK  for certain ............. these monster very very clever businesses really really do know what they're doing and more importantly

 ................ MUCH more so than any Govt of the day or of any day too

So then, where's my hydrogen powered ....... Lexus Ls700  🤩

Malc

Dear Malcolm,

all you need is a LS700 and money enough to convert it. Living a place close to where hydrogen fuel is available would be, of course, nice.

Toyota has already with Yamaha made a V8 running on hydrogen and Toyota has taken one of their, already in production, combustion engines (1.6L) that before was running on oil-based fuel and converted it to run on hydrogen. The tank needed for hydrogen does not have to be gigantic. Unless of course you want to drive from UK to Italy and back without refuelling. Hydrogen will come before 2030 in many places. Already now used EV cars are difficult to sell without gigantic loss of money in some of the colder countries and when enough have bought one and found that range is not 300Km but closer to or less than 100 more people will start a blaming game.

Where in UK hydrogen pumps will be ready in sufficient numbers I do not know, but before 2030 governments will find a new solution and the stupid ones of us will continue to believe that politicians are working well for us and the planet; and will vote for the same ones again.

Fuel cells are what is going to be what EV cars will be converted to when it becomes clear to many that batteries are a poor or stupid solution. We that grew up with real engines have enough of the combustion engines available to convert to run as real cars should run (as us old car lovers think they should run) so we do only need to convert them when filling stations with hydrogen become sufficient in numbers and distances.

I am waiting, but so far, no hydrogen stations are planned here. Conversion is only difficult or impossible for those opposing the idea.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/electric/are-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-the-future/

Jumping into conclusions rather than sarcastic John?

Yes, fuel-cells will be replacing batteries, when batteries become impossible or too expensive to get. Take out the gigantic, heavy Battery and replace it with fuel cells is not impossible, and will probably be well enouth as the EV cars will still be in OK condition when replacing batteries i no longer the best solution.

[Malc1]

just reading BP has now over 1200 BP filling stations in the UK  ......  from the total number of 8380 filling stations UK wide

so refuelling my new Ls700 anywhere in the UK shouldn't be a problem in the not too distant future, well, 2030 maybe   ( I'll be 80 then btw ) 🤣

Malc

[Mincey]

Has the potential issue with multi-storey car parks falling down under the weight of all these lardy-chuffer EVs been mentioned yet? It's hydrogen for me when that day comes. I'll not be one of these Betamax/MySpace types 🙂

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, Mincey said:

Has the potential issue with multi-storey car parks falling down under the weight of all these lardy-chuffer EVs been mentioned yet? It's hydrogen for me when that day comes. I'll not be one of these Betamax/MySpace types 🙂

Indeed. Imagine what it must have been like posting pictures of your Betamax and 8 track player on your MySpace page 🙂

[Mincey]

12 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Indeed. Imagine what it must have been like posting pictures of your Betamax and 8 track player on your MySpace page 🙂

Exactly. You'd have felt a complete berk. 

[Las Palmas]

More hydrogen news:

 

 

The Chinese H2 vehicle market is already dominated by Hyundai Motor Co, but rivals are stepping up.

 

Japanese and German automaker giants including Toyota and BMW are pushing forward into the hydrogen cars market in China.

Toyota plans to take the first steps with its second generation Mirai in China before the end of the year.

 

To bring its hydrogen cars into the Chinese market, Toyota intends to bring about 100 units of the second generation Mirai into the country for short-term car rental as well as for cab hailing services. The goal of this strategy is to boost consumer awareness of H2 vehicles before retails sales will begin, which will be its next steps.

The second-generation Toyota Mirai’s performance is notably superior to that of the original model, with its maximum range having increased to 850 kilometres on a full H2 tank. Moreover, its mileage is about 200 kilometres superior to that of the Hyundai Nexo, which has a mileage of 609 kilometres. Toyota has also announced its intentions to use the Mirai fuel cells for an upcoming model of the Hilux truck that will begin full-scale commercial vehicle production next year.

Also from Japan, Honda is already selling the Clarity H2 passenger vehicle. The automaker’s intention is to convert its CR-V SUV into an H2 model which will begin mass production starting in 2024. They plan to make that SUV stand out by making it possible to charge its batteries by plugging it in too.

European automakers such as BMW have also completed the preparations that they need to make in advance of entry into the Chinese auto market. BMW began test production of its iX5 concept vehicle on December 5. The vehicle was developed in a collaboration with Toyota and will roll out in Japan in 2023. Also from Europe, Volkswagen – which had previously expressed scepticism about the future of hydrogen cars – recently applied to a fuel cell patent along with a German energy company.

Hyundai Motor Co. is the current leader in H2 vehicle market and therefore has a competitive edge, having rolled out the first mass-produced H2 truck in the form of the Xcient in the European market as well as in South Korea. In passenger vehicles, Hyundai has developed a third-generation fuel cell for hydrogen cars and has fuel cells in its Nexo car and Xcient truck.

 

Hyundai will be providing the German truck company  The Faun Group with new H2 components.

Hyundai Motor Group recently announced that it will be supplying the Faun Group in Germany with 1,100 fuel cell systems as a part of a three-year deal.

The German eco-friendly car company intends to make H2-powered cargo and garbage trucks.

This represents the first time the automaker and hydrogen car company has agreed to supply its fuel cell systems in large numbers. With this deal, Hyundai will be supplying its 90-kilowatt H2 components to power Enginius’ two brands, Citypower cargo trucks and Bluepower garbage trucks. Those vehicles are expected to enter the market in 2023 and 2025 respectively.

“Partnering with Faun Group, HTWO took one step closer to reducing fossil fuel reliance,” explained Hyundai Motor Group head of hydrogen fuel cell division Lim Tae-won in a media statement. HTWO is the fuel cell system brand that Hyundai launched last year. It represents H2, the hydrogen molecule.

Hyundai is the largest hydrogen car supplier, holding a 59.1 percent market share. In the first three quarters of this year, it sold 9,591 units of its Nexo SUV worldwide, according to SNE Research market tracker data. The second largest share belongs to Toyota, with the Mirai comprising 17.9 percent.

Hyundai has been making solid moves to use its fuel cell systems to keep hold of its market leadership.

Recently, for instance, Hyundai began selling its H2-powered Xcient trucks in South Korea, then brought them to the European market, where units are being sold in Switzerland and Germany.

 

[Las Palmas]

If this is true – Green hydrogen to power everything from cooling, heating, lighten our days to transport of everything is possible.

Christmas present in large as life size.

 

 

Will nuclear fusion be the clean energy of our future?

 

US Department of Energy officials have announced that scientists have made a historic breakthrough.

US Department of Energy (DoE) officials recently announced that US researchers had achieved a milestone breakthrough in nuclear fusion, having for the first time produced more energy than was used to power the experiment.

Scientists were able to use fusion to produce more energy than was used to power the lasers they used.

The nuclear fusion net energy gain is considered to be a major milestone in energy science and in the attempt to develop a source of limitless, clean energy. The process occurs when two or more atoms are fused together. While this has already been achieved by researchers, what is novel about the latest development is that they were able to fuse the atoms using less energy than was produced.

The experiment required a massive 2.05 megajoules of energy to power lasers aimed at the target, but the result was 3.15 megajoules of energy output. This meant that they were able to generate 50 percent more energy than they used to power the reaction. This is a meaningful energy gain.

“This monumental scientific breakthrough is a milestone for the future of clean energy,” said a statement from US Senator Alex Padilla (D-CA).

 

The nuclear fusion achievement was made by Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists.

The research team were from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s National Ignition Facility in California. The achievement was made on December 5, 2022 and announced this week. The facility used is about the size of a sports stadium, and the team used 192 very high-powered lasers to produce the reaction.

The breakthrough was a “milestone,” said Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm. “Ignition allows us to replicate, for the first time, certain conditions that are only found in the stars and sun,” she said. “This milestone moves us one significant step closer to the possibility of zero-carbon, abundant fusion energy powering our society.”

According to Granholm, the Livermore scientists and other labs are moving the US forward in an effort to achieve clean energy without the requirement for nuclear testing as a nuclear deterrent.

“This is what it looks like for America to lead, and we’re just getting started,” explained Granholm. “If we can advance fusion energy, we could use it to produce clean electricity, transportation fuels, power, heavy industry and so much more.”

That said, it’s important to recognize that this is only the very earliest step in nuclear fusion as an energy source. It is a critical step but doesn’t mean that it will be available in the short term. Progress with renewable power and hydrogen fuel, among other sources of clean energy, remain critical even if the future of clean, sustainable energy is nuclear fusion.

 

The director of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Kim Budil called the breakthrough a “fundamental building block” to one day using this technology as a form of powering electricity. That said, in her estimations, “a few decades” of work are still needed before it will be available for commercial use.

“I think it’s moving into the foreground and probably with concerted effort and investment, a few decades of research on the underlying technologies could put us in a position to build a power plant,” said Budil. “With real investment and real focus, that timescale can move closer.”

[William_1991]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:58 PM, Las Palmas said:

Not only the cells. Combution engines are all over and when they can be converted to drive on liquid gas, no reason not to convert them to hydrogen. Or just throw all these engines out?

A normal ICE car converted to run on hydrogen would have a really bad range… The hardest part on ICE running on hydrogen is making them in a way that’s similarly powerful (they tend to loose power) and making them run on a poor mixture as much as possible. 
The Mirai for example, using the same amount of hydrogen in a ICE would give it around 30% the range compared to the fuel cell.

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, William_1991 said:

A normal ICE car converted to run on hydrogen would have a really bad range… The hardest part on ICE running on hydrogen is making them in a way that’s similarly powerful (they tend to loose power) and making them run on a poor mixture as much as possible. 

The Mirai for example, using the same amount of hydrogen in a ICE would give it around 30% the range compared to the fuel cell.

Poor range? When did Toyota make poor range cars? Corolla GR Cross.

  

Existing Toyota engine 1.6 turbo.

 

[William_1991]

Well, to give you an example, that Corolla GR that was doing endurance races running on hydrogen?

For the driver, it looks like this:

 

And it look like this at the rear:

With those 4 big tanks at a higher pressure are needed to give it around the same range at race speed as the Mirai FCEV.

[Malc1]

so my brand new Lexus Ls700 for Hydrogen could really really be on the near horizon !

Malc

[Las Palmas]

Chinese researchers successfully achieve hydrogen production with seawater

The team of scientists in China developed a device able to split salt water for producing H2 directly.

A Chinese research team has announced that they have successfully developed a device able to split salty seawater for direct hydrogen production.

The new device is able to overcome the issues previously causing a barrier to seawater electrolysis.

The device developed by the researchers is a membrane-based seawater electrolyzer. This device helps to address the corrosion and side-reaction problems that occur when trying to electrolyze seawater using traditional methods.

The results of the research were published in the Nature journal, in which the team under Nanjing Tech University chemical engineering professor Zongping Shao stated that their device “ran for over 3,200 hours under practical application conditions without failure.”

Currently, the majority of H2 is made using methods powered by fossil fuel, meaning that even though H2 itself doesn’t lead to CO2 emissions when used as a fuel, there are greenhouse gasses emitted from producing it.

“Electrochemical saline water electrolysis using renewable energy as input is a highly desirable and sustainable method for the mass production of green hydrogen,” said the research team in a news release.

 

Electrolyzing seawater has been a top goal for hydrogen production, but barriers were considerable.

Being able to electrolyze salt water into H2 to be used as a green fuel is an appealing goal, but seawater is notorious for the corrosion it causes to electrodes used in electrolyzers. As a result, electrolyzing seawater is typically seen as unviable.

While some hydrogen production researchers have applied polyanion coatings in attempts to resist the corrosion from chloride ions and some have tried highly selective electrocatalysts, but they have not been appropriate for practical application. Desalinating water requires energy, reducing the efficiency of the hydrogen production in the first place.

“Our strategy realizes efficient, size-flexible, and scalable direct seawater electrolysis in a way similar to freshwater splitting without a notable increase in operation cost,” explained Shao in a media statement.

The team focused their seawater hydrogen production on the use of a concentrated potassium hydroxide electrolyte solution in which the electrodes were dipped. This, combined with a porous membrane helped to separate the seawater and electrolyte solution. The membrane was fluorine rich, allowing water vapor to penetrate it while blocking liquid water.

[Las Palmas]

Why hydrogen cars still make sense despite energy loss

Some consumers are questioning the value of H2 vehicles when EVs plug in and charge directly.

When comparing hydrogen cars and Battery electric vehicles, many people wonder why anyone would choose an H2 option when fuel cell vehicles suffer energy loss.

All vehicles experience energy loss, including internal combustion engines, electrics and H2-powered.

Energy is lost no matter what type of vehicle is driven. It’s easy to assume that an electric vehicle would not be included in that group, as it uses electricity directly from the grid. However, an electric vehicle’s drive system still experiences an energy loss of between 15 percent and 20 percent.

Comparatively, a gasoline-powered internal combustion engine experiences a much higher 64 percent to 75 percent energy loss, according to US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) data.

Fuel cell vehicles experience an energy loss of somewhere between 40 percent and 60 percent, though that technology is rapidly evolving; fuel cells have not been around very long compared to combustion engines, and efficiency levels are improving, according to the California Hydrogen Business Council.

 

Energy loss in a hydrogen car is partly offset by its energy storage capacity using renewable electricity.

As important as energy loss most certainly is, there are many other factors that determine whether a vehicle – even one that has zero-emission operations, like a hydrogen car or EV – is truly environmentally friendly and makes the anticipated difference in reducing carbon emissions to combat climate change.

In deciding whether Battery electric vehicles or hydrogen cars are better for the environment, it is vital to consider how the electricity or hydrogen fuel is produced. After all, both can be produced by burning coal or natural gas with unabated greenhouse gas emissions. In those cases, the electricity or H2 still contribute to emission levels, even if it is not occurring within its end use in powering a vehicle. An electric vehicle could only consider itself truly CO2 emission-free if it was powered by electricity generated by renewable sources such as solar and wind. Similarly, only green H2 produced using electrolysers powered by renewable energy such as solar and wind would mean that operating a hydrogen car is truly clean.

When using renewables, storing the energy as H2 can help to ensure a steady supply of fuel, as reliability of sunny days, windy days, and the limitations of availability (such as the lack of solar power production at night) can mean that even if energy loss does occur, it takes advantage of any renewable electricity produced but that is not immediately used and would otherwise be lost altogether.

Batteries self-discharge while hydrogen can be stored without loss long periods.

[Las Palmas]

On 12/27/2022 at 1:57 PM, Malc1 said:

so my brand new Lexus Ls700 for Hydrogen could really really be on the near horizon !

Malc

Depending on what - near horizon - mean to you.

It is possible and the first prototypes were - the first prototypes.  They will be evolved and improved and only those who dislike change will be against that.

[Las Palmas]

On 12/26/2022 at 9:05 PM, William_1991 said:

Well, to give you an example, that Corolla GR that was doing endurance races running on hydrogen?

For the driver, it looks like this:

 

 

The inside of racing- and rally-cars are not as pretty as the inside of our Lexus cars either.

The hydrogen container in the rear of the Corolla GR Cross does not look much bigger than the LPG gas tanks and not bigger than most gasoline tanks either.

Remember, if you spill hydrogen it is less dangerous than spilling gasoline.

[Las Palmas]

Mercedes Benz and GM believe that 2024 will be the year when hydrogen cars will come out.

Toyota has already rolled out a fuel cell car, but now it’s also working on using H2 in a new way.

Toyota has been developing a new vehicle with a hydrogen combustion engine, taking a new direction using H2 aside from its Mirai which is powered by a fuel cell.

 

The Japanese automaker is aiming to use H2 to its fullest and some suspect this could leave EVs behind.

With the hydrogen combustion engine, Toyota is working on a new branch in its diversified carbon neutrality approach. Though the automaker began cutting down on fossil fuel powered vehicles starting in 1997, when it first rolled out its Prius, the automaker hasn’t put all its eggs in the all-electric basket. Moreover, the first fully Battery electric vehicle (EV) it did release, the BZ4X, sold only a few hundred units (by October 2022), and the company doesn’t intend to boost its production of that vehicle until 2025.

“People involved in the auto industry are largely a silent majority,” said Toyota president Akio Toyoda. “That silent majority is wondering whether EVs are really OK to have as a single option. But they think it’s the trend so they can’t speak out loudly. Because the right answer is still unclear, we shouldn’t limit ourselves to just one option.”

While Battery electrics have certainly outsold H2 cars by a wide margin, according to JD Power, those vehicles still represent a small fraction of the total new car market.

Toyota recently unveiled its Corolla Cross H2 hydrogen combustion engine concept vehicle.

While the Mirai fuel cell electric vehicle has experience a slow roll-out to limited adoption – for a spectrum of reasons – Toyota’s prototype for an H2 internal combustion engine (ICE) in the form of the Corolla Cross H2 Concept opens up a new category for these cars.

Toyota’s hydrogen combustion engine was developed out of the 1.6 liter turbocharged three-cylinder already seen in the GR Yaris and the GR Corolla. Of course, it has been altered to use H2 as its fuel. The process of this alteration included the addition of a heavy-duty fuel tank to contain the H2 under high pressure. That component was swiped from the Mirai.

https://youtu.be/6liX9KuSwkk

Other changes made to the design include stronger connecting rods, hardened valves and valve seats, and gas (not liquid) fuel injectors. The prototype, like the standard Corolla, seats 5 people plus their luggage.

The Toyota hydrogen combustion engine offers fast refueling and requires fewer rare metals.

The Toyota hydrogen combustion engine offers a string of advantages, including those over the experience offered by EVs. Among them include the fact that this H2 ICE has a larger range and an extremely fast refueling time. In fact, the GR Yaris H2 can be refueled in only 90 seconds.

On top of those benefits to the driver, there is also an advantage to cost, material scarcity, and environmental friendliness in that it doesn’t require nearly as much rare metal such as lithium or nickel, which are critical to the manufacturing of a Battery. While this vehicle does have a Battery, it’s substantially smaller than an EV.

The Corolla Cross H2 concept car is now undergoing real-world evaluation. It is expected to begin winter road condition testing soon. Those tests will take place in northern Japan.

While there are already hydrogen cars both available and in development using fuel cells, hydrogen combustion engines will add a new technology option for automakers and drivers. As electricity shortages grow and the price of green H2 continues to fall, many experts believe that this form of zero- and reduced-carbon emission vehicle could soon have its moment while EVs may soon hit their peak.

[Mincey]

As Stevie Wonder was saying to me only the other day, hydrogen is the way to go.