Hydrogen nearly there then .... the Ls700h maybe

[Malc1]

Reading today that Toyota are creating a Hydrogen commercial vehicle building facility in the UK ......... somewhere ,,,,,,,,,,,,  as they have hydrogen powered cars in fleet use with the UK Police Authorities around Heathrow etc ,,,,,,,,,,  does this give me the feeling that more hydrogen cars / models are soon to be in the realm of UK purchasers ( soon being maybe 5 years ? )

clearly usurping EVs and evidencing some agreements with fuel providers to ensure refuelling capacity availability generally in the UK methinks

Your thoughts ?

Malc

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marlinleg]

Talking to a Toyota salesman  a few months back he was told at a Toyota meeting in Derby. Toyota are looking into  Toyota hydrogen cars  powering your house in the future. Drive home plug  in your  hydrogen car to power your house 

Don't ask it's way past me 😵‍💫

[ambermarine]

Read a report about this push towards hydrogen and the investment into producing it is huge, not everyone is convinced in the automotive world that electric is the future.

On balance taking out the various downsides of both energy sources over time hydrogen comes out way on top because it as no residual waste, just water, the biggest  downside is the energy required to make it ,at the moment that process is carbon rich but they have a new idea that is top secret and from all accounts cuts the carbon by 2/3rds.

The biggest example of the reluctance of the auto market to go the distance on ev,s can be hilighted by the Volt Battery factory in the UK nearly folding last month because they have no orders for any products having spent nearly a £100m already.

[Las Palmas]

In Germany hydrogen powered trains are being tested as several places it is close to impossible to have electric lines to power trains and not everybody is stupid enough to believe that we shall all have half a ton Battery in every car and have that Battery changed when no longer having capacity enough. Hydrogen is being tested to power container ships and a rather large factory planned by Maersk shipping lines.

Electric cars are something stupid or corrupt politicians dream of.

For people with brain, it is a nightmare.

 

 

[Marlinleg]

Are electric cars the new diesel gate ??

[Las Palmas]

43 minutes ago, Marlinleg said:

Are electric cars the new diesel gate ??

No. It is far worse. The video in there explain why.

 

[KingHal]

I’m no expert, but I’ve long believed the long term solution lies with hydrogen cells. 

[Las Palmas]

Just now, KingHal said:

I’m no expert, but I’ve long believed the long term solution lies with hydrogen cells. 

Not only the cells. Combution engines are all over and when they can be converted to drive on liquid gas, no reason not to convert them to hydrogen. Or just throw all these engines out?

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Malc1 said:

Reading today that Toyota are creating a Hydrogen commercial vehicle building facility in the UK ......... somewhere ,,,,,,,,,,,,  as they have hydrogen powered cars in fleet use with the UK Police Authorities around Heathrow etc ,,,,,,,,,,  does this give me the feeling that more hydrogen cars / models are soon to be in the realm of UK purchasers ( soon being maybe 5 years ? )

clearly usurping EVs and evidencing some agreements with fuel providers to ensure refuelling capacity availability generally in the UK methinks

Your thoughts ?

Malc

 

The LS 700 would probably be fantastic, but far too big for the little parking place we have in the garage of the building. Or just not rich enough....

[Malc1]

17 hours ago, Malc1 said:

to ensure refuelling capacity availability generally in the UK methinks

something along the lines of BP already starting to develop their own Hydrogen " cracking " facility somewhere in the north of England ....  a good starting point to roll out UK wide to their BP branded petrol / fuel stations when appropriate methinks

Malc

[BigBoomer]

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are nothing new.
Honda released their FCX Clarity back in 2007. James May even took a drive around Los Angeles in one and liked it.
There is also the Toyota Mirai and the Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell.
The problems with hydrogen were mostly due to a lack of investment in the infrastructure by the energy companies.
Now they are suddenly realising that they have pretty much no choice so are finally investing in hydrogen production and storage. 

It's not really practical or efficient to convert internal combustion engines to run on Hydrogen but can be done if people want to keep older vehicles running, and the fossil fuel industry will continue albeit at a progressively lower level. As we slowly switch to BEV or FCEV the cost of running a petrol/diesel car is only going to go up so be prepared for it.

Personally I never buy new cars and I ain't getting any younger, so the chances of me buying a used BEV or FCEV are pretty slim.
By the time they become available at a reasonable price I expect to be retired and poor and getting about in a cheap beater car, or else using public transport/taxis.
 

[Malc1]

5 minutes ago, BigBoomer said:

I expect to be retired and poor and getting about in a cheap beater car, or else using public transport/taxis.

walking to and getting on public transport might force you into using your own car .........  mine's a V8 4 ltr  " beater  "  .  beats most on the road for sure 😃

Malc

[BigBoomer]

2 hours ago, Malc1 said:

walking to and getting on public transport might force you into using your own car .........  mine's a V8 4 ltr  " beater  "  .  beats most on the road for sure 😃

Malc

I plan to keep the LS as long as I can but I don't need to get about that much so a few local trips per week by taxi (say £30 per week at current prices) would cost about the same that my current car costs to do the same thing. It's about £16 per week for annual costs (Tax, MOT, Insurance) plus maintenance, consumables, and petrol of course, and the cost of petrol is going to skyrocket over the next 20 years. For longer trips I can always hire a car.
I will also have my motorcycles until they prise my cold dead hands off the handlebars, whether I am capable of riding them or not. 😁

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

It's not really practical or efficient to convert internal combustion engines to run on Hydrogen but can be done if people want to keep older vehicles running, and the fossil fuel industry will continue albeit at a progressively lower level. As we slowly switch to BEV or FCEV the cost of running a petrol/diesel car is only going to go up so be prepared for it.

 

It is not smart to throw away a lot of well-functioning internal combustion either.

Many have been converted to liquid gas, so it is not impossible to convert to hydrogen.

When hydrogen is readily available, I will be looking for an old dream car and have it converted; if I live long enough to see hydrogen filling places available.

Battery as power plants for cars is idiotic.

[BigBoomer]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

It is not smart to throw away a lot of well-functioning internal combustion either.
Many have been converted to liquid gas, so it is not impossible to convert to hydrogen.
When hydrogen is readily available, I will be looking for an old dream car and have it converted; if I live long enough to see hydrogen filling places available.
Battery as power plants for cars is idiotic.

I suggest you do some research on converting an ICE to run on Hydrogen. It's whole different ballgame compared to LPG which is just another hydrocarbon.
There has been some success with adding Hydrogen to petrol engines to improve performance (like with N2O injection), but when it's the only fuel there are some major issues, the biggest of which is the production of Nitrogen Oxides (NOx), the same nasty pollutant that recently sparked the Diesel emissions scandals.

No, it's not smart to "throw away" a functioning car and they are not going to just stop selling petrol, but over time it will get priced out of the market for all but the enthusiastic hobbyist.

No reason why you couldn't get a dream car retrofitted with a Fuel Cell, buffer batteries, and electric motor though. You will probably lose the use of the boot though as hydrogen tanks currently take up a lot of space. Hopefully that will change with investment and research, or maybe they will invent the Mr Fusion. 
 

[Malc1]

On 12/3/2022 at 10:22 AM, Malc1 said:

something along the lines of BP already starting to develop their own Hydrogen " cracking " facility somewhere in the north of England ....  a good starting point to roll out UK wide to their BP branded petrol / fuel stations when appropriate methinks

and reading today's BP financial news that BP thinks Hydrogen is the motorists fuel of the future ..............  well done BP  ......... .  let's get it out there and Toyota building Hydrogen powered vehicles for everyone and BP making it available at ALL their petrol stations nationwide 

Well done BP .....  there'll ALWAYS be enough petrol around to keep our old bangers going ...........  including my 1932 Triumph Southern Cross Sports Tourer too 🥰

 

Malc

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

I suggest you do some research on converting an ICE to run on Hydrogen. It's whole different ballgame compared to LPG which is just another hydrocarbon.
There has been some success with adding Hydrogen to petrol engines to improve performance (like with N2O injection), but when it's the only fuel there are some major issues, the biggest of which is the production of Nitrogen Oxides (NOx), the same nasty pollutant that recently sparked the Diesel emissions scandals.

Not nearly as impossible as you think. A new cat will be needed and that is also being looked into. So far they are converting and having around 90% less pollution from the converted compared with same engine using the fuel it was running on before. Wait a few more years and most of these problems may be solved. The cat used today is not the one needed to get rid of the NOx, but the cat we have now also took a couple of years before functioning.

 

[BigBoomer]

But even with an ICE specifically designed for Hydrogen and a CAT that 100% removes the harmful NOx you still have an engine that is at best 35% efficient where a fuel cell & Battery electric system is 60%+ efficient and therefore has nearly twice the range,... or the same range but with more luggage/interior space.
I'm sure that with enough investment and research hydrogen ICE engines can be made to work, but it's going to be niche market rather than mass market.

There will always be petrol available if there is sufficient demand, but the the cost will be very high.
Even if we run out of fossil fuels we can make petrol from the CO2 in the air combined with Hydrogen.

You keep using the word "impossible" but I have not said that. What I said was that it wasn't practical.
I like that people are out there trying other ways. There are still people doing research on 2 stroke engines, ****el engines, Radial engines, etc. and these will mostly never become mainstream either, but one day someone might discover a more efficient engine so it's good that they are trying.

One of the things that many people seem to think is that there will be a ban on fossil fuel engines. So far that has not happened anywhere that I know of.
What has happened are bans on the sales of NEW cars using fossil fuel engines from 2030 onwards, at least for the UK/EU.
It's unlikely that they will ever completely ban fossil fuel engines from all roads although they could be banned from city centres.
Since the mass-market is converting to BEV & FCEV the pollution produced by the remaining ICE vehicles will reduce over time until by 2050 it will be a small fraction of what we produce today.
 

[Malc1]

3 minutes ago, BigBoomer said:

Since the mass-market is converting to BEV & FCEV the pollution produced by the remaining ICE vehicles will reduce over time until by 2050 it will be a small fraction of what we produce today.

But NOT in most of the world ..............  where " mass market " vehicles diesel and petrol is quite a useful product over much of Africa, Asia, North and South America too and of course India  .  where the Delhi Govt has just introduced ALL buses are now Electric .....  with a " local " population of some 26 million persons to be serviced

Malc

[BigBoomer]

Yes Malc there too, albeit probably later and slower than us.
Since the global manufacturers will be reducing their manufacturing base for ICE vehicles, that will start in the "western world" but it will spread to rest of the world as well.
I am not talking about in the next few years, but about the next 25-50 years. 2050 is still 27 years away. A LOT can change in 27 years. 27 years ago even the G-Wiz didn't exist and there were few electric cars that could do much more than 60 miles.
 

[Las Palmas]

3 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

Yes Malc there too, albeit probably later and slower than us.
Since the global manufacturers will be reducing their manufacturing base for ICE vehicles, that will start in the "western world" but it will spread to rest of the world as well.
I am not talking about in the next few years, but about the next 25-50 years. 2050 is still 27 years away. A LOT can change in 27 years. 27 years ago even the G-Wiz didn't exist and there were few electric cars that could do much more than 60 miles.
 

If all new cars shall be electric on Battery juice we do not have 27 years to get raw materials to make the batteries or develop new kinds of batteries that keep performance when it gets cold.

Hydrogen is ready now:

https://newatlas.com/automotive/unsw-hydrogen-diesel-retrofit/

And surely the big companies working on the project will make things better.

Toyota, Yamaha, Maersk just to mention 3 heavyweight companies working on it and investing in it.

[BigBoomer]

Agreed, and for big ship engines and even truck diesels that is a good retrofit system,... if it ever gets out of the lab.
But for passenger cars it's almost certainly going to be Battery Electric Vehicles and Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles.
I'm not a fan of Battery vehicles either but they are available today, and they work well within certain limits.
Personally I have always preferred the idea of Fuel Cell vehicles as they are more flexible than BEVs.

[Malc1]

On 12/2/2022 at 4:27 PM, Malc1 said:

Your thoughts ?

wow, didn't I start something interesting  ............... 😇

Malc

[dutchie01]

Interesting thread indeed. Both electric and hydro technology is fascinating and it seems very much in development. We more or less know our petrolengines. Atkinson cycle, CVT, Turbochargers, intelligent gearboxes, downsizing et all. But especially hydro i dont know enough about. It sounds to good to be true? What are the downsides of hydro? Is it potentially explosive, does it need to be compressed in big hydrotanks in the vehicle? What about efficiency when igniting. Will an engine develop thesame amount of hp on petrol or hydro or is this 50% less and if so what about range?

Anyone?

[Las Palmas]

29 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Interesting thread indeed. Both electric and hydro technology is fascinating and it seems very much in development. We more or less know our petrolengines. Atkinson cycle, CVT, Turbochargers, intelligent gearboxes, downsizing et all. But especially hydro i dont know enough about. It sounds to good to be true? What are the downsides of hydro? Is it potentially explosive, does it need to be compressed in big hydrotanks in the vehicle? What about efficiency when igniting. Will an engine develop thesame amount of hp on petrol or hydro or is this 50% less and if so what about range?

Anyone?

More or less as dangerous as liquid gas, less than gasoline, if you spill it it does not lay on the ground as a very flammable material, it just goes up in the air. Range depend on tank, like gasoline does. Big companies are starting to work with it so it must be something they think of as worth spending money on.

https://www.yamaha-motor.com.au/discover/news-and-events/news/corporate/2022/february/tapping-the-potential-within-hydrogen-powered-engines