Ghost 2 - can thieves remove the hardware?

[Southern Aston]

Hi all,

We had a 2019 RX stolen recently via the wheel arch CAN bus method in what appeared a professional / targeted theft. Before committing to buying a replacement (and risking a repeat theft)  I am trying to get comfortable that Ghost 2 (which I would have installed) cannot be somehow bypassed. The main thing I’ve not been able to determine is whether the actual hardware (the chip wired in) can be removed if thieves know what they are looking for. Thinking in particular about RXs. Speaking with a couple of installers I’ve not got much clarity. Can anyone advise on this? If any security concerns any direct messages also would be very welcome. 

Many thanks,

SA 

[LenT]

7 hours ago, Southern Aston said:

Hi all,

We had a 2019 RX stolen recently via the wheel arch CAN bus method in what appeared a professional / targeted theft. Before committing to buying a replacement (and risking a repeat theft)  I am trying to get comfortable that Ghost 2 (which I would have installed) cannot be somehow bypassed. The main thing I’ve not been able to determine is whether the actual hardware (the chip wired in) can be removed if thieves know what they are looking for. Thinking in particular about RXs. Speaking with a couple of installers I’ve not got much clarity. Can anyone advise on this? If any security concerns any direct messages also would be very welcome. 

Many thanks,

SA 

Ultimately a targeted vehicle can always be towed away, in which case a concealed tracker system comes into its own.  But car security seems to revolve around how much you are prepared to spend on it and how much inconvenience you are prepared to put up with.

The best advice seems to be to invest in a ‘layered system’ of security.  For example, you can fit mechanical or electronic systems that will isolate the CAN bus.  So the thief has to spend time removing or locating them.

The attraction of the Ghost system is that the car appears to be cooperating - until the moment that it isn’t!  The thief is then presented with the dilemma of whether to persist in trying to start the car or - if recognising a Ghost system - trying to bypass it.  Both involve spending more time in the car and risking detection.

And finally a bright yellow steering lock covering the steering wheel, combined with turning the wheels into the kerb, can be quite an effective deterrent in the first place!  And the only one that should advertise its presence.

 

[Las Palmas]

4 minutes ago, LenT said:

But car security seems to revolve around how much you are prepared to spend on it and how much inconvenience you are prepared to put up with.

That is the problem. How much you are willing to live with?

No system can make sure the car cannot be stolen, damaged, broken into.

[PCM]

I am NO expert but... I think a visual deterrent is better.

Ghost sounds amazing but - and I could be wrong - the car could still be significantly damaged before the thief realised.

You are then left with your car, but severely damaged?

( CCTV, PIR lights, locked gate if you have a driveway...? )

[Las Palmas]

A simple old-fashioned alarm with remote control, one that can send alarm to your phone when tampered with car; must have cabin- and tilt- sensor (so you do not need extra switches in doors and car is not towed away), also own power supply to alarm, so if car Battery is removed, alarm will still function; solar charging to alarm Battery (or charging only when engine is running, blocked with a diode so power can get into the Battery and not be taken out through electric circuit in the car), a powerful siren inside the car well hidden. You will then need 2 remote controls.

That will make probability for the car being stolen, close to not really there anymore, car can still suffer severe damage. Thief can still come with a sound proofed container to tow the car in and drive away with it. As soon as car is inside container no signal will be sent anywhere.

Our Lexus cars are not that much wanted by rich thieves, I think. Maybe the ugly yellow thing on the steering wheel is the least irritating for owner.

 

[Hillie]

https://autowatch-ghost.co.uk/ 

Ghost II does look like a very capable security system.  However I am concerned that any 3rd Party Anti Theft Security device such as this might interfere with other systems on the vehicle and create a scenario where by Lexus potentially voids any warranty or defect claims by blaming the after market 3rd Party System? 

Another question, would this device disable the entire CAN BUS system, and completely disable keyless entry / courtesy lights etc or does it just immobilise the powertrain.

 

I could not find any discussion or FAQ on the Ghost website or product page on these points.

 

 

[Las Palmas]

Whosoever can get into the can-bus system and communicate with and control it has complete control over so many things in the car, that only an alarm system that is not connected to anything in the car will stay functional after can-bus system has unlocked the doors.

[Las Palmas]

38 minutes ago, Hillie said:

I could not find any discussion or FAQ on the Ghost website or product page on these points.

Why would Ghost inform anybody that the system they sell is not perfect?

[Hillie]

56 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Why would Ghost inform anybody that the system they sell is not perfect?

Exactly,  its not untill the buyer has the system installed do the quirky bit and pieces or the much larger gremlins come crawling out.... 

 

[Arqum]

I’ve got Pandora after seeing a friend of mine who fits alarms for a living find a ghost, rip it out and start the car in 10min. 
 

The package I have disables CAN, has no tag no start, and even if you bypass that immobiliser, it has another one. On top of that that factory alarm still works too. 
 

if after all that they do start the car then they are welcome to it for all their efforts.

 

ps also have a Stoplock full steering lock as a deterrent 

[Las Palmas]

As said in the beginning: It is a matter how much you are willing to go through to make it a bit more difficult to steal your car.

But never install anything that meddles with the can-bus unless you are 250% sure of what you are doing.

 

[Southern Aston]

Thanks Arqum. That is interesting on the hardware and is was what I feared. From the box it comes in it looks like the Ghost is still sizeable. So it strikes me a determined thief can still go hunting for it and unless it’s really buried somewhere under the bonnet they can find it. My RX was stolen at 3am off the street at which time I imagine the thieves could afford some time to hunt around. 
 

I’ve heard the argument that a good quality installation makes the Ghost hard to find but not convinced that a pro can go hunt it down with a bit of effort? 
 

Is Pandora also hardware that is potentially detachable? I’ll look it up.
 

I’m starting to think that much as I like the RX it’s CAN bus weakness is going to be hard to offset and leaves it more vulnerable than other manufacturers. Towing aside of course. 
 

Thank you everyone else for your comments as well. 

 

SA

[WipeOut]

Excuse my ignorance on this sort of attack on the RX CAN Bus. Can disabling the smart entry access via the car's vehicle customisation menu stop this type of attack?

 

[Herbie]

10 minutes ago, WipeOut said:

Excuse my ignorance on this sort of attack on the RX CAN Bus. Can disabling the smart entry access via the car's vehicle customisation menu stop this type of attack?

 

No, I don't think so. The CAN bus is how the various ECUs communicate (I think so anyway) so once you have access to that I think you can pretty much do anything to get the car working.

[Hillie]

Here is the Ghost II owners manual.   I do like the option to configure the device to allow the vehicle to start but still LOCK the gearbox to prevent it driving away versus complete vehicle shutdown. 

 

https://ghosttracker.co.uk/Au****chGhostUsermanualv2.pdf

Au****chGhostUsermanualv2.pdf

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, WipeOut said:

Excuse my ignorance on this sort of attack on the RX CAN Bus. Can disabling the smart entry access via the car's vehicle customisation menu stop this type of attack?

 

No. Disabling smart entry will stop a relay attack, but it has no effect on a CAN bus attack.

[WipeOut]

6 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

No. Disabling smart entry will stop a relay attack, but it has no effect on a CAN bus attack.

Thanks.

Oh dear, better get a Stoplock / Disclok!

[LenT]

On 11/23/2022 at 4:52 PM, WipeOut said:

Thanks.

Oh dear, better get a Stoplock / Disclok!

 

They are the Ultimate visual deterrent- possibly second only to a Doberman in the passenger seat.

I had the wheel covering version on a soft-top Elan and to my knowledge no-one ever tried to tackle it.

But it was a faff to slip on and then unlock every time.  And it did live on the floor behind the passenger seat.  The other slight negative is that it did leave an impression on the steering wheel.

On the other hand, it’s probably the cheapest and easiest security device to kick off with!

You could have it working today.

One point about the Ghost and similar systems:  for chummy to tackle them directly, they first have to know they’re there.  As for CANbus attacks, as I mentioned earlier, there are mechanical and electronic products that will isolate it.

 

[JamesIS220]

A hungry rottweiler is what you need to leave in the car!

If only! Lol.

[rayaans]

TBH I dont tink theres much you can do. Steering locks can be removed fairly easily if the vehicle is towed away anyway

GHOST and steering locks might force them to come into your house if they really want it. 

 

[wendle]

Ghost immobilisers are not easy to find, they are as big as a stick of chewing gum, they are normally fitted inside any part of the the wiring loom, not just under the bonnet, they carefully unwrap the tape surrounding the main loom, wire in the Ghost, slide the unit into the loom and re rap it, if its done right it is as near as impossible to find.

[Sybaris]

There is more risk of the person installing Ghost to make a mess of it than the car being taken.

[Herbie]

14 minutes ago, Sybaris said:

There is more risk of the person installing Ghost to make a mess of it than the car being taken.

I don't agree with that but I do know that the way jobs go is down to the individual installer, which is true of almost anything; good/bad plumbers, good/bad decorators and so on.

The biggest problem with a Ghost is that it doesn't begin to do its work until the scrotes are already in the car. The real goal is to deter them from even thinking that your car is a prospective target in the first place.

[Sybaris]

The thing that deters me from trackers is would I want the car back if it was stolen?  Trying to sell a recovered car makes life difficult and also what condition would it be in?  If you have decent gap insurance then you get a new one.