A very interesting read

[Linas.P]

Interesting - so that raises the question... what is average weight of Caravan and what licenses Caravan drivers have? Do they all really have Cat-C? 

Because BE - still has same limit of 3500kg... and if we take even average SUV, like Q7, XC90 or even RX450h, they already are easily over 2000kg (closer to 2200 really). Completely empty unfurnished caravan is like 700kg+... so that makes it nearly 3000kg without either towing car or caravan being loaded.

Now if go back to the same logic of adding 100kg of fuel, 4 adults (350kg), some food and drinks for weekend (say another 200kg) and it can very easily be over 3500kg. Ohh... and that is before septic tank is considered! 😄 

Now I am happy to state I am not at risk ever being found behind the wheel towing caravan, so I never ever even thought about it... how do they do it? IS that the reason we see Nissan micas towing caravans? 

[Mr Vlad]

Blimey you shouldn't see a Nissan Micra towing a caravan as its way to small and light. It could tow a very small trailer I think. 

That was a fabulous find on your car Steve and I appreciate you posting that 👍

As for EV emitting no emissions then I'm sorry to say they do and it's been proven on a panorama type program. The tyres wear a bit more than on a fossil fuel car because of their weight and because of that they emit more 'rubbish ' (sorry can't think of the word) from their tyres.

That ok then Colin as I wasn't wanting to wind you up in any way shape or form.

I'd be interested in knowing what the weight was of the RX450H I had when it was Fully loaded with 5 in it, clothes for a week and other stuff which totally stuffed the huge boot plus a full tank of go go juice. 

[wharfhouse]

57 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Interesting - so that raises the question... what is average weight of Caravan and what licenses Caravan drivers have? Do they all really have Cat-C? 

Because BE - still has same limit of 3500kg... and if we take even average SUV, like Q7, XC90 or even RX450h, they already are easily over 2000kg (closer to 2200 really). Completely empty unfurnished caravan is like 700kg+... so that makes it nearly 3000kg without either towing car or caravan being loaded.

Now if go back to the same logic of adding 100kg of fuel, 4 adults (350kg), some food and drinks for weekend (say another 200kg) and it can very easily be over 3500kg. Ohh... and that is before septic tank is considered! 😄 

Now I am happy to state I am not at risk ever being found behind the wheel towing caravan, so I never ever even thought about it... how do they do it? IS that the reason we see Nissan micas towing caravans? 

On the gov.uk site:

What you can tow

You can tow trailers up to a certain weight with your car driving licence. The weight you’re allowed to tow depends on when you got your licence.

You’ll need to know the weight of both the vehicle and trailer - also known as the ‘maximum authorised mass’ (MAM).

The MAM is listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle or trailer.

If you got your licence before 1 January 1997

You can usually drive a vehicle and trailer with a combined weight of up to 8,250kg MAM. View your driving licence information to check.

You’re also allowed to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kg MAM.

If you got your licence from 1 January 1997

You can tow a trailer that weighs up to 3,500kg MAM.

[Linas.P]

21 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Blimey you shouldn't see a Nissan Micra towing a caravan as its way to small and light. It could tow a very small trailer I think. 

That was a fabulous find on your car Steve and I appreciate you posting that 👍

As for EV emitting no emissions then I'm sorry to say they do and it's been proven on a panorama type program. The tyres wear a bit more than on a fossil fuel car because of their weight and because of that they emit more 'rubbish ' (sorry can't think of the word) from their tyres.

That ok then Colin as I wasn't wanting to wind you up in any way shape or form.

I'd be interested in knowing what the weight was of the RX450H I had when it was Fully loaded with 5 in it, clothes for a week and other stuff which totally stuffed the huge boot plus a full tank of go go juice. 

It goes extreme (not sure if that is real, but still fun):

The thing from tyres is called "particle emissions". It is true that BEVs emit more due to weight, but even electricity is not "emissions free". Even if that electricity comes from solar or wind, it isn't free of emissions as the solar panels have lifecycle emissions and wind turbines have lifecycle emissions. Overall, quite comprehensive studies concluded that average BEV is about 30% cleaner over it's lifetime than average ICEV... ohhh and that is equivalent to 1 flight hour of passenger jet!

One of the biggest issues with BEVs is that emissions are built into their Battery and they must drive at least 80-100k miles to offset it, scrapping ICEV after 5 years and 50k miles is not much of an issue, but scraping BEV after 5 years and 50k miles means it is way way more polluting than ICEV.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

On the gov.uk site:

What you can tow

You can tow trailers up to a certain weight with your car driving licence. The weight you’re allowed to tow depends on when you got your licence.

You’ll need to know the weight of both the vehicle and trailer - also known as the ‘maximum authorised mass’ (MAM).

The MAM is listed in the owner’s manual and is normally shown on a plate or sticker fitted to the vehicle or trailer.

If you got your licence before 1 January 1997

You can usually drive a vehicle and trailer with a combined weight of up to 8,250kg MAM. View your driving licence information to check.

You’re also allowed to drive a minibus with a trailer over 750kg MAM.

If you got your licence from 1 January 1997

You can tow a trailer that weighs up to 3,500kg MAM.

That does not answer my question thought. I have BE cat myself so I know that I can tow a trailer, but the mass should not exceed 3500kg for both.

My question was - considering that most people use SUVs to tow the caravans and considering that many SUVs are now 2200-2700kg and caravan is 700Kg+ ... what is happening in practice. Do people blocking the roads around the country with their caravans actually have C cat? 

My suspicion is that many of them exceeding 3500Kg and don't have right category to be on the roads. I am just speculating here, but perhaps police are checking that or perhaps police is not aware of this issue... or they just don't give a...... because nowadays everything is done by cameras - including weighting the cars just by looking at them...

[wharfhouse]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That does not answer my question thought. I have BE cat myself so I know that I can tow a trailer, but the mass should not exceed 3500kg for both.

My question was - considering that most people use SUVs to tow the caravans and considering that many SUVs are now 2200-2700kg and caravan is 700Kg+ ... what is happening in practice. Do people blocking the roads around the country with their caravans actually have C cat? 

My suspicion is that many of them exceeding 3500Kg and don't have right category to be on the roads. I am just speculating here, but perhaps police are checking that or perhaps police is not aware of this issue... or they just don't give a...... because nowadays everything is done by cameras - including weighting the cars just by looking at them...

Apologies, yes that wasn't the full picture as it was also to do with the changes that happened last year for towing. It does still however depend on when one got a driving licence, so:

I have C1E on my licence as I have had it since the late 1970's which states:

You can drive vehicles weighing between 3,500 and 7,500kg (with a trailer over 750kg), with no more than 8 passengers and a driver. The combined weight of both can’t exceed 12,000kg, but there is then an additional restriction code on my licence of Not more than 8,250kg.

For only BE on the licence, it states:

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats and a driver, with any size trailer within the towing limits of the vehicle.

So, yes, what you can drive/tow will depend on when you got the driving licence - I can tow with a MAM of up to 8250kg so that could be a very heavy car (or even a truck) with a very heavy caravan or trailer (so long as it's within the towing limits of the car) whereas indeed, on your licence you would be limited with only BE to the car and trailer being less than 3,500kg in total. And so yes, I am sure there will be people (younger people especially) who as cars have and will get heavier be driving with MAM over 3,500 kg and therefore driving illegally...! In addition to being stopped by police (if ever) perhaps more importantly they would also be uninsured should they have an accident.

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

Apologies, yes that wasn't the full picture as it was also to do with the changes that happened last year for towing. It does still however depend on when one got a driving licence, so:

I have C1E on my licence as I have had it since the late 1970's which states:

You can drive vehicles weighing between 3,500 and 7,500kg (with a trailer over 750kg), with no more than 8 passengers and a driver. The combined weight of both can’t exceed 12,000kg, but there is then an additional restriction code on my licence of Not more than 8,250kg.

For only BE on the licence, it states:

You can drive vehicles up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) with up to 8 passenger seats and a driver, with any size trailer within the towing limits of the vehicle.

So, yes, what you can drive/tow will depend on when you got the driving licence - I can tow with a MAM of up to 8250kg so that could be a very heavy car (or even a truck) with a very heavy caravan or trailer (so long as it's within the towing limits of the car) whereas indeed, on your licence you would be limited with only BE to the car and trailer being less than 3,500kg in total. And so yes, I am sure there will be people (younger people especially) who as cars have and will get heavier be driving with MAM over 3,500 kg and therefore driving illegally...! In addition to being stopped by police (if ever) perhaps more importantly they would also be uninsured should they have an accident.

Ohh... actually I didn't catch this little nuance and how it makes a difference, but now I see what you mean. It sounds stereotypical, but I assume most people with caravans nowadays will be the ones who have gotten their licenses before 1997... so you right 3500Kg may not even apply to them and 8250Kg is plenty for any caravan ever. 

Sure that is stereotype that only old people are into caravans, but realistically it is rare to see anyone under 40 towing the caravan. It seems it is mostly the retired people (I may be wrong) and because the change happened in 1997, this means oldest person on new restriction is 42 years old and very few retire before 55. 

[wharfhouse]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

Ohh... actually I didn't catch this little nuance and how it makes a difference, but now I see what you mean. It sounds stereotypical, but I assume most people with caravans nowadays will be the ones who have gotten their licenses before 1997... so you right 3500Kg may not even apply to them and 8250Kg is plenty for any caravan ever. 

Sure that is stereotype that only old people are into caravans, but realistically it is rare to see anyone under 40 towing the caravan. It seems it is mostly the retired people (I may be wrong) and because the change happened in 1997, this means oldest person on new restriction is 42 years old and very few retire before 55. 

Year by year though, even for stereotypical caravanners ages, more will be brought into the BE trap of 3,500kg without possibly realising... 

[Boxbrownie]

The gross train weight is the vehicle and trailer/caravan, a bit different from just the vehicle GVW.

 

As you have found out you don’t need any other license class above normal unless doing it commercially.

[Boxbrownie]

Also some the classes that are legacy included from the 1970’s will expire upon the driver’s seventieth birthday.

 

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Also some the classes that are legacy included from the 1970’s will expire upon the driver’s seventieth birthday.

 

Yes C1 by default expires at 70 unless one opts to take a medical (at own cost) to retain it - and then do same every 3 years when reapplying for the driving licence - since some people may be driving motorhomes over 3500kg at that age (and maybe heavy cars and caravans) something to think about when 70th birthday arrives - I've got a few years yet before I get there! 

[Boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

Yes C1 by default expires at 70 unless one opts to take a medical (at own cost) to retain it - and then do same every 3 years when reapplying for the driving licence - since some people may be driving motorhomes over 3500kg at that age (and maybe heavy cars and caravans) something to think about when 70th birthday arrives - I've got a few years yet before I get there! 

I am not so sure the 3500kg applies to (older) drivers with a normal license, I am sure you can tow GTW of up to 8250kg.

[wharfhouse]

10 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

I am not so sure the 3500kg applies to (older) drivers with a normal license, I am sure you can tow GTW of up to 8250kg.

A driver loses the C1 at 70 years old (if they had it - i.e. passed the driving test pre 1997) by default and then they would revert to only having the BE category and so would be limited to 3500kg - in addition to completing the forms to renew the driving licence at 70 the driver can opt (at their own cost) to have an additional medical which if they pass enables then to keep their C1 category (and have to do this every 3 years). Losing C1 may not bother too many drivers when they each 70 but for some motorhome drivers and those with a heavy car/caravan it could be important.

[Mr Vlad]

Correctly put Phil. Me being a professional driver for over 30 years and sit a CPC every 5 years. Roll on my 70th lol coz this job of mine is near murder at my time of life But its been said doing a labour intensive job goes towards a longer life.

Crikey Linas where did you find that photo from. I think I saw that some years ago. Funny as duck (ooops can't spell)

[Boxbrownie]

On 10/14/2022 at 11:14 AM, wharfhouse said:

A driver loses the C1 at 70 years old (if they had it - i.e. passed the driving test pre 1997) by default and then they would revert to only having the BE category and so would be limited to 3500kg - in addition to completing the forms to renew the driving licence at 70 the driver can opt (at their own cost) to have an additional medical which if they pass enables then to keep their C1 category (and have to do this every 3 years). Losing C1 may not bother too many drivers when they each 70 but for some motorhome drivers and those with a heavy car/caravan it could be important.

Yes, over 70