A very interesting read

[Mr Vlad]

I couldn't think of a better title. The cream I'm on about is regarding the larger SUV's and the possibility of losing one's driving licence. Oh? How?

Well the larger SUV's weigh 2.7 tons (so I read). Now the article didn't say if the weight was wet or dry (max weight with fuels and passengers or just the vehicle). So let's assume the vehicle is dry. Fill it up with fuel and five people plus full of luggage. The weight of that larger SUV would then probably weigh over 3.5 tons. 

The standard driving licence is for vehicles under 3.5 tons. So there is the possible problem. If that owner hasn't a license to drive upto and including 7.5 tons then they could be in great bother. 

What about grandfather rights I hear some of you say. Well I'm not sure about that. One will have to look on their respective licences for inclusions.

So just what are these manufacturers of the larger heavier SUV doing making a vehicle which could jeopardise an owners licence? It would have to be the dealers checking the licence of prospective buyers.

[Boxbrownie]

You’d have to go some to get overweight, even a fully loaded new Landrover Discovery is under 3.4 tons gross…..and that’s the eight seater!

I think they have thought about this. 😉

[J Henderson]

Also, what about the physical size of some of these SUVs?. They're just as big as a van, which is subject to lower speed limits than a "car" on certain roads.

I wonder if they'd still be as popular if you could legally only do 50mph in one? 😉

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, J Henderson said:

Also, what about the physical size of some of these SUVs?. They're just as big as a van, which is subject to lower speed limits than a "car" on certain roads.

I wonder if they'd still be as popular if you could legally only do 50mph in one? 😉

AFAIK it is weight (GVW) which restricts speed.

[ColinBarber]

Bentley are worried:

https://uk.motor1.com/news/585338/bentley-wants-higher-weight-limit-europe/

 

[Linas.P]

I would love to see SUVs being subject to different rules, (like vans maybe with different speed limits) and maybe some sweet additional tax, sadly it needs to happen worldwide otherwise stupid fashion won't end. Basically anything to make them less popular as there is really no reason why people in the city would needs such a large car. Ok there may be families with 4 kids and 3 dogs, but that is exception... now everyone just buys SUV as default choice which is just bad for everyone, car choice, environment, roads... everything.

Anyway this whinge aside... I just can't see how you can load the SUV with extra 800kg, non-LWB Bentley is 2645kg with fuel and Royce Royce is 15kg more. 5 "average" people x 80kg - 400kg. That leaves 400+kg for any personal items. Unless car is filled with bricks, rocks or cement I just can't see it happening. And yes EWB is 3250kg which is very close, but it only seats 4 people and actually has less space in the boot (it just has loads of space for rear passengers). Now granted - theoretically it is possible if somebody deliberately tries, but in practice it just won't ever happen. 

[Boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Bentley are worried:

https://uk.motor1.com/news/585338/bentley-wants-higher-weight-limit-europe/

 

They will have to “design clever”……a catch phrase that was bumbling around decades ago now 😁

[Mr Vlad]

Absolutely and basically get off the EV bandwagon and concentrate on hydrogen powered cars. 

What kind of money is being wasted by some car manufacturers begging that the weight ceiling be raised. That money can go on sorting getting hydrogen stations being built or pumps introduced in existing fuel stations. 

[Boxbrownie]

40 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Absolutely and basically get off the EV bandwagon and concentrate on hydrogen powered cars. 

What kind of money is being wasted by some car manufacturers begging that the weight ceiling be raised. That money can go on sorting getting hydrogen stations being built or pumps introduced in existing fuel stations. 

 

[Boxbrownie]

If you skip through Roddy’s terrible introduction (I cannot watch him for more than a few minutes at a time!) but the professors actual interview is very interesting and factual without bias.

[Spock66]

1 hour ago, Mr Vlad said:

What kind of money is being wasted by some car manufacturers begging that the weight ceiling be raised. That money can go on sorting getting hydrogen stations being built or pumps introduced in existing fuel stations. 

If cars returned to the size and weight they were 20-30 years ago that would go a long way to reducing CO2 emissions.

I was watching a youtube review of a 1980s BMW 735i, the current 3-series is now bigger than a 7-series used to be.

[royoftherovers]

13 minutes ago, Spock66 said:

If cars returned to the size and weight they were 20-30 years ago that would go a long way to reducing CO2 emissions.

They would do nothing to reduce emissions Sir.

Emissions are not a function of either size or weight.

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Absolutely and basically get off the EV bandwagon and concentrate on hydrogen powered cars. 

Mod comment:

If this topic is going to degenerate into another EV / hydrogen 'discussion' then it will be locked - there are other topics already running for that.

[Mr Vlad]

Colin. All topics 'degenerate' into one thing or another. The worst culprit is the 64 page plus fuel price thread. That has gone through at least 5 different subjects. 

I started this thread about the weight of some SUV's and the possibility of its owner losing their driving licence. 

It was a post from you that sparked a comment of clever design. My comment seems to have wound you up for whatever reason. 

Freedom of speech is a God given right so longs as it doesn't denegrade a person or belief.

Very interesting interview with that professor. I didn't realise the way hydrogen is made and just how inefficient it is. Makes me wonder just what is the efficiency of making electricity and large EV batteries that weigh a ton (nearly anyway)

[ColinBarber]

5 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

My comment seems to have wound you up for whatever reason. 

I'm responding to reports and comments from LOC members about threads going off topic etc. etc.

[Boxbrownie]

42 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

 

Very interesting interview with that professor. I didn't realise the way hydrogen is made and just how inefficient it is. Makes me wonder just what is the efficiency of making electricity and large EV batteries that weigh a ton (nearly anyway)

I won’t take the bait 😉 in deference to Colin, there are plenty of reference materials on the web.

 

I’ll just say it is a great pity Hydrogen isn’t cheap and clean to make, we could have very long range EVs powered with a fairly compact fuel cell which wouldn’t mean we need overweight SUVs, getting back on topic 😁

[Boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

They would do nothing to reduce emissions Sir.

Emissions are not a function of either size or weight.

Not quite true, as weight needs to be moved in the first instance and the greater weight the more effort (energy) involved, the same is true of size and drag through the air. But in practical terms unless your comparing a van to a Fiat 500 there is not that much in it. 👍

[Spock66]

7 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

They would do nothing to reduce emissions Sir.

Emissions are not a function of either size or weight.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/25/suvs-second-biggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures-reveal

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415645/

[Boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, Spock66 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/25/suvs-second-biggest-cause-of-emissions-rise-figures-reveal

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415645/

Have to be careful with these statistics as they are a percentage increase rather than a total output.

 

Looks good as a headline though.

[Bluemarlin]

17 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

Not quite true, as weight needs to be moved in the first instance and the greater weight the more effort (energy) involved, the same is true of size and drag through the air. But in practical terms unless your comparing a van to a Fiat 500 there is not that much in it. 👍

Surely that depends on the vehicle though? A zero emissions vehicle is going to produce zero emissions, regardless of its size or weight.

[Spock66]

2 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Surely that depends on the vehicle though? A zero emissions vehicle is going to produce zero emissions, regardless of its size or weight.

The initial comment I made was specifically with reference to ICE vehicles, the trend in increasing vehicle size and weight is directly contributing to increasing CO2 emissions.

But on your point there is really no such thing as a zero emissions vehicle, the energy has to come from somewhere and unless that is totally green there will be an environmental impact.

[Boxbrownie]

6 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Surely that depends on the vehicle though? A zero emissions vehicle is going to produce zero emissions, regardless of its size or weight.

Yes, a zero emissions vehicle of course will produce no emissions, it was the fact we were talking about emissions made it only relevant to ICE vehicles, although of course a zero emissions vehicle such as an EV will still use more energy to move its mass with Battery power than a lighter more aerodynamic zero emissions vehicle, so effectively (unless you can guarantee the electric is green) you are causing the power station to emit more emissions than the smaller vehicle as even though as small as the difference may be.

[Linas.P]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:47 PM, royoftherovers said:

They would do nothing to reduce emissions Sir.

Emissions are not a function of either size or weight.

I wouldn't agree with that - even 2 cars with identical engines, say BMW 530d and BMW X5 3.0d will have different emissions based on their weight and shape. Simply said same engine in BMW 5-series will have to work less at any given time and burn less fuel, less fuel burnt = less emissions. This is both true when car starts driving - lighter car will need less fuel to move itself up-to speed... and when at speed 5-Series will more fuel efficient because of drag.

Same even true for BEVs, although there is no strictly identical BEV for example Tesla Model-X will use more electricity than Model-S to go same distance, more electricity is more emissions. Now again - Model-X does not use same Battery and same engines as Model-S (Model-X is slightly newer and more efficient), so like for like comparison is not possible, but it is still true that Model-X uses more kW/mile, meaning just because of weight and size it is less efficient and more polluting.

So size, weight and shape - do impact emissions. Perhaps it could be argued the difference is marginal, or that they are not directly impacting emissions, but at the end of the day - larger, heavier and less aerodynamic vehicle will pollute more. And all combined it could make rather big difference, because larger heavier vehicle will require bigger, wider, heavier wheels, bigger brakes, stronger suspension components etc. etc.

Another practical example - I watched how Brabus makes armoured G-Class. They add about 800kg of armoured glass and steel to the car, but overall after they upgrades brakes and suspension to handle all extra weight the car ends-up weighting 1800kg more on already heavy 2500kg G63 AMG. As result of that they add second fuel tank which doubles fuel capacity just to keep same range. So despite staying the same shape and keeping same engine 1800 extra kg doubles the fuel consumption... and that doubles the emissions.

Finally, it is just physics - to move heavier object more energy is needed, more energy used = more pollution. Sure there are caveats, because energy can be produced more efficiently, transmitted more efficiently and used more efficiently. So it may be true that despite weighting more, more modern and more efficient SUV will emit less emissions that old smaller car, but that does not matter, because as soon as like-for-like comparison is made - more modern and more efficient smaller car will always be more efficient than SUV with equally efficient engine.

[Linas.P]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:31 AM, Bluemarlin said:

Surely that depends on the vehicle though? A zero emissions vehicle is going to produce zero emissions, regardless of its size or weight.

The problem is that there is no such thing as "ZERO emissions vehicle" and actually I would argue this branding for BEV is deliberately misleading, because it gives false perception for owners. Logic would say no matter how many times one multiples 0 it will be zero. The problem is that we call vehicles which are NOT AT ALL zero-emissions as such. 

On this topic I have watched very balanced and nice piece, I can't put it better myself so here is the link:

 

[Redsteve]

On 10/10/2022 at 4:35 AM, Mr Vlad said:

I couldn't think of a better title. The cream I'm on about is regarding the larger SUV's and the possibility of losing one's driving licence. Oh? How?

Well the larger SUV's weigh 2.7 tons (so I read). Now the article didn't say if the weight was wet or dry (max weight with fuels and passengers or just the vehicle). So let's assume the vehicle is dry. Fill it up with fuel and five people plus full of luggage. The weight of that larger SUV would then probably weigh over 3.5 tons. 

The standard driving licence is for vehicles under 3.5 tons. So there is the possible problem. If that owner hasn't a license to drive upto and including 7.5 tons then they could be in great bother. 

What about grandfather rights I hear some of you say. Well I'm not sure about that. One will have to look on their respective licences for inclusions.

So just what are these manufacturers of the larger heavier SUV doing making a vehicle which could jeopardise an owners licence? It would have to be the dealers checking the licence of prospective buyers.

Hello Guys.

With regard to larger vehicles being close to the 3.5T weight limit I found this warning in the door frame of my LS460. 

As far as I know, the Tachograph would only have to be fitted and used if the vehicle was used for commercial reasons. If you have the entitlement to drive up to 7.5T on your driving licence you don't need to use a Tachograph for personal use, for example towing a caravan while on holiday. However, if someone paid you to drive the car while towing their caravan you would need to use a Tachograph if the car and caravan exceeded 3.5T.

Steve.