START UP ENGINE RATTLE

[ahmed-abrar]

I'm starting this new thread as a off shoot hijack from an existing one

This morning i started my car from being parked overnight on a level surface & for the first time i heard  a one second rattle which i have only heard before when parked on a nose down incline on occasion

Previously i considered a low oil level as a reason , but checks discounted that as a cause

another thread has mentioned solenoids but i'm not so sure exactly 

[samplify]

Most likely the VVTI cam gear rattle. It happens from time to time if oil drains out of that area. I've heard leaving the car on for a few mins after you've finished driving helps to prevent it. I don't think it poses a threat to anything though!

[Mr Vlad]

Yes it's been said all is250 on a cold start have a rattle for a second then it goes off. No detriment to the engine or driveability. 

[Texas]

Is a known issue whereby the lifter oil drains downs and at start up it takes time to refill, there was a US TSB but I don’t think it happened here🙄 I can only foresee a problem if it ( the loud ticking noise) persists for more than a second or two or if it happens at Every start up regardless of soak time.

[SeanR]

Would an oil like magnatec help ?

[Tyre Tread]

As per other thread, mine does it if I park nose down on a slope so I always park nose up or level.

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, samplify said:

Most likely the VVTI cam gear rattle. It happens from time to time if oil drains out of that area. I've heard leaving the car on for a few mins after you've finished driving helps to prevent it. I don't think it poses a threat to anything though!

Either this or dry valve lifters themselves.   

7 hours ago, SeanR said:

Would an oil like magnatec help ?

No, in my experience it made no difference whatsoever.

First thing which helped me a lot was engine flush, without flush the rattle would be back after 4-6k miles, with flush there would be no rattle until like 10k. Second thing, simply doing oil changes more often (or rather at "proper" intervals like 5-6k) and that should solve it. Third thing, there is Wynn's additive for specifically valve lifters, it is like £8 and definitely makes engines sound much smoother on start-up and eliminates this noise. Likewise I heard ZX1 helps with same thing, basically you need some additive which make oil film stronger and makes it stay attached to metal surfaces rather than drying out. 

[PCM]

13 hours ago, ahmed-abrar said:

Previously i considered a low oil level as a reason , but checks discounted that as a cause

What's the milage on your car? Could it be 'old age'?

[AntC]

Per the other thread, none of the suggestions resolved my rattle, unfortunately. Frequentl oil changes at 5k miles, engine flush, Wynn's hydraulic valve lifter, topping up oil when necessary. Tested oil control solenoids, cleaned VVTi filters.

However, mine only happens when the engine is warm, 20-30 minutes after driving, never on a cold start.

There was only one instance, right after an oil change, where there was no rattle for about a month, then it came back.

My next plan is using 0w20 oil to see if it makes a difference.

I have seen mentions of a pre-lube system on the US forums, which involves a small oil tank that serves the purpose of keeping oil pressure up after the engine is turned off. In theory, this should eliminate the rattle entirely since there will be no need to build up oil pressure during crank. However, I have no idea what the cost of this could be, as well as whether it is doable on the IS250, considering the available space under the bonnet.

The thing I'm wondering the most about is the cold vs warm start. If the issue is the oil being drained out, shouldn't it be present on both warm and cold starts?

[ahmed-abrar]

4 hours ago, PCM said:

What's the milage on your car? Could it be 'old age'?

currently its on about 68500 miles

[ahmed-abrar]

I'm gonna try a can of liquid moly valve lifter additive I've ordered from you know who online & see if i can hear the difference

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, AntC said:

Per the other thread, none of the suggestions resolved my rattle, unfortunately. Frequentl oil changes at 5k miles, engine flush, Wynn's hydraulic valve lifter, topping up oil when necessary. Tested oil control solenoids, cleaned VVTi filters.

However, mine only happens when the engine is warm, 20-30 minutes after driving, never on a cold start.

There was only one instance, right after an oil change, where there was no rattle for about a month, then it came back.

My next plan is using 0w20 oil to see if it makes a difference.

I have seen mentions of a pre-lube system on the US forums, which involves a small oil tank that serves the purpose of keeping oil pressure up after the engine is turned off. In theory, this should eliminate the rattle entirely since there will be no need to build up oil pressure during crank. However, I have no idea what the cost of this could be, as well as whether it is doable on the IS250, considering the available space under the bonnet.

The thing I'm wondering the most about is the cold vs warm start. If the issue is the oil being drained out, shouldn't it be present on both warm and cold starts?

If it happens on warm engine after 20-30 minutes of driving, then it is different issue altogether. This issue with lifters/valve train/valve chain is specific for cold start.

Not sure how 0W20 helps, as cause of rattle likely to be lack of lubrication and if it happens on warm engine then it probably means oil is already to thin, not too thick, so by adding thinner oil with lower warm viscosity you probably will make it worse rather than better. Thinner oil only makes sense for cold start i.e. using 0W30 instead of 5W30 so that it flows better right away, but on warm you should be looking at second number and generally the higher the better (within reason).

[AntC]

 

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

If it happens on warm engine after 20-30 minutes of driving, then it is different issue altogether. This issue with lifters/valve train/valve chain is specific for cold start.

Not sure how 0W20 helps, as cause of rattle likely to be lack of lubrication and if it happens on warm engine then it probably means oil is already to thin, not too thick, so by adding thinner oil with lower warm viscosity you probably will make it worse rather than better. Thinner oil only makes sense for cold start i.e. using 0W30 instead of 5W30 so that it flows better right away, but on warm you should be looking at second number and generally the higher the better (within reason).

I guess the oil being thinner when warn makes sense as it would leak back down faster. The reason I did consider using thinner oil is with the idea, that thinner oil would flow more quickly during crank and would go to the necessary place to prevent the rattle.

However, I am 100% certain that the rattling sound is the exact same as the one on cols start. Will try making a video and post it here.

If I do use thicker oil, wouldn't this make the car more prone to the cold start rattle issue though?

I would also like to note that this happens only after the engine has reached or almost reached operating temperature. For example, if I drive for 10 minutes and the engine hasn't warmed up yet, there will be no rattle on the next start.

What would be the thickest oil that you can suggest using? 

[Linas.P]

27 minutes ago, AntC said:

I guess the oil being thinner when warn makes sense as it would leak back down faster.

And that is correct - thinner oil will leak down faster, but that is only desirable when engine is cold, when engine is hot you kind of want for oil to stick as much as possible to protect the surfaces and that is why we have multigrade oils - so that we can have thinnest possible oil for cold starts and thickest possible oil for when engine is warm. It is all kind of relative because all oils will be much thinner when warm, so second number just indicates that they are better at resisting thinning out too much.

How thick you could go? Well, first of all you probably want to keep it thin for cold starts, so 0 or 5, which leaves you with 0W40 or 5W50. I personally used Mobil1 Long Life 0W40 and it was much batter compared to 5W30 Magnatec, stayed clean, didn't burn at all and I didn't notice any negative effects. Obviously Mobil was just better grade oil, fully synthetic vs. hydrocracked Magnatec, so I shouldn't be surprised. 

That said, your issue is just weird, as if there is no issue on cold starts, there should be no issues when engine is warm. I can only speculate but it seems maybe something is expanding the way it shouldn't when engine warms-up and then it starts grinding? VVTI is complex system and hard to diagnose, but I may look to VVTI solenoids or something like that. Solenoids should regulate the oil flow trough the system, meaning that maybe they close little bit when they detects that engine has warmed, but maybe one of them malfunctions and closes too much or not at all.

[AntC]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

And that is correct - thinner oil will leak down faster, but that is only desirable when engine is cold, when engine is hot you kind of want for oil to stick as much as possible to protect the surfaces and that is why we have multigrade oils - so that we can have thinnest possible oil for cold starts and thickest possible oil for when engine is warm. It is all kind of relative because all oils will be much thinner when warm, so second number just indicates that they are better at resisting thinning out too much.

How thick you could go? Well, first of all you probably want to keep it thin for cold starts, so 0 or 5, which leaves you with 0W40 or 5W50. I personally used Mobil1 Long Life 0W40 and it was much batter compared to 5W30 Magnatec, stayed clean, didn't burn at all and I didn't notice any negative effects. Obviously Mobil was just better grade oil, fully synthetic vs. hydrocracked Magnatec, so I shouldn't be surprised. 

That said, your issue is just weird, as if there is no issue on cold starts, there should be no issues when engine is warm. I can only speculate but it seems maybe something is expanding the way it shouldn't when engine warms-up and then it starts grinding? VVTI is complex system and hard to diagnose, but I may look to VVTI solenoids or something like that. Solenoids should regulate the oil flow trough the system, meaning that maybe they close little bit when they detects that engine has warmed, but maybe one of them malfunctions and closes too much or not at all.

Thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll try using 0w40 instead and see whether it will have any effect. Otherwise, I'll keep searching for information since I doubt any garage other than a Lexus/Toyota dealership will want to diagnose a VVTi issue.

[H3XME]

Just like @AntC, my car will only SOMETIMES rattle after a short drive. Never on a cold start. Drive 10mins to the shop, come out after another 10mins and the car would have this 1s start up rattle, but like I said it's only sometimes. I tried different oils and it didn't make any difference. It's not causing any issues to be honest. That I know of anyway.. The car developed this around 135,000 miles.. it's only 174k now and it's not getting any worse.  My mates car did it on cold starts when he got it with around 80k on, but went away with more frequent oil changes. Mine never rattled cold.

[Thelongterm]

Might not affect the IS in the same way but If you are interested in the mechanics of a similar issue, have a watch of this excellent clip.

Mine does this rattle very rarely if the oil is not up to the middle to top dipstick line.

 

 

 

[is200 Newbie]

I had this on a couple of IS's i owned and to be honest it didn't cause any issues over the 10 years i owned them but managed to reduce the noise quite a bit. What i did do tho was i always changed the oil on a 6 monthly basis (this was back a few years when oil was relatively cheap) and during the oil change i would always run an engine flush through at the same time (Wynnes engine flush, smelt a bit like paraffin?) - 20 minutes at a higher rev than tick over. Whether it was placebo effect, it did reduce the times it rattled, but as it's a noticeable noise i would say yes it was effective reducing it down to once or no rattles at all in the 6 month period between changes. I seem to remember it did not remedy it immediately as it was over a long period of changes but i had always used an engine flush on all cars so carried on with the IS's. Yes, petrol and oil have cleaning additives but i was used to doing it for relatively little expense. I always used Castrol Magnatec which then changed to start /stop.