The start of a long, slippery slope?

[Herbie]

Paying for what the car already comes with.

[Phil xxkr]

24 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Paying for what the car already comes with.

As I mentioned in an post earlier the subscription model is evident in all sorts of ways. Mobility have been on it for years. Perfect for "driving" a two tier system, those in work, with the latest model and being a hamster on the wheel, and those not in work. Interesting how over time hire purchase became socially acceptable followed by leasing followed by PCP followed by continuous subscription. 

[route66]

I suppose this isn't that new. I recall VW had cruise control in all Golfs about a decade ago but it would only work if you had a particular stalk. If you didn't have cruise control, you just had to order the CC-enabled stalk for a few quid and it burst in to life!

 

Things are a bit more sophisticated now and we have all heard about over the air updates.

 

In my own opinion, if the manufacturer wants to load a car with unenabled features that you have to pay for (either at time of ordering or afterwards with a one-off or regular subscription payment) then that's ok as long as it doesn't come at a financial or environmental cost to those who don't want the feature.

 

So for "virtual" things - software features, etc, that's ok. Sticking the functionality into the base car is fine, doesn't take any extra time, doesn't weigh anything, etc.

 

But for physical things, that's different. Even if economies of scale are such that the feature can be physically installed in a dormant state with no added cost to the base car, it's not really a good idea. It may be cheaper for BMW to install heated seats into every car and then just get the revenue from those who pay for it, but even then, that raises some questions:

 

·       Can an owner with the relevant know-how "hack" something to get this functionality for free or will BMW have some legal clauses that prevent an owner from interfering with their own car? I know some game console manufacturers did this to prevent people cannibalising their heavily subsidised consoles for parts to be used in other devices.

·       If you pay a one-off payment, does this feature stay with the car or does the new owner have to pay again?

·       What about the environment considerations of having every car have a feature that only a few will use - e.g. the extra weight and manufacturing impact?

·       What if the unused feature develops a fault - who pays if the wiring in your dormant heated seats causes problems elsewhere or even a fire? I believe adaptive suspension is also an option - this tends to be more complex and less reliable than simple passive shock absorbers. And most especially on BMWs who don't have a stellar reputation in this area!

·       What if you want to upgrade the seats to some specialised aftermarket seats? Will the car think you've been messing with it and "tell" the manufacturer so they can invalidate your warranty? I.E. guilty until proven innocent?

·       I like to own things – in the old-fashioned way – but I realise that the world is changing and many consider cars as things to use rather than own – through PCP or pay by the hour schemes, etc. In this case, I don’t think this matters but for those like me with “old fashioned” ownership ideas, I’m not happy that “ownership” becomes a “license to use” with conditions attached.  

 

 

 

 

[Malc]

5 minutes ago, route66 said:

I’m not happy that “ownership” becomes a “license to use” with conditions attached.  

a changing world methinks .......... the youngsters of today will know no different as time passes ............. and as with EVs and charging points and black boxes insurers have in cars .  an individual's independence will be a long forlorn wish and it's starting to happen right now in our Western World and, dare I say it ............. in our understanding of  freedom and democracy 

Malc

[Huwge]

I believe Tesla have been doing this for some considerable time. First owner buys car and specs it with lots of extra 'toys'. 

When it is sold on, everything is disabled by Tesla, making the car the basic model once again unless the new owner buys them again

[Malc]

5 minutes ago, Huwge said:

Tesla, maki

 

5 minutes ago, Huwge said:

When it is sold on, everything is disabled by Tesla,

that's just terrible 

Malc

[Las Palmas]

1 hour ago, route66 said:

I suppose this isn't that new. I recall VW had cruise control in all Golfs about a decade ago but it would only work if you had a particular stalk. If you didn't have cruise control, you just had to order the CC-enabled stalk for a few quid and it burst in to life!

Worked in a company selling those stalks to Peugeot, VW and a couple of other car importers cheaper than they could buy from manufacturer. The harness needed to be a bit changed as well for most of the cars.

[Las Palmas]

Adobe and Microsoft have been doing this for many years now and both are having a lot of customers renting.

I find it stupid, but some feel that having the latest updates constant make it worth it.

Still have not gone completely to Linux as having bought too many expensive programs not functioning with anything but Microsoft OS. Bought not rented, maybe not so smart?

[dutchie01]

80% of those fiddly things are useless toys you only use once. All you need is a steeringwheel, speedo, wipers, heating, airco and thats it really..  No need for 2 mtr wide touchscreens or seats with 178 different settings, or dual zone aircon or 5 different mappings for the engine and 3 different ones for the gearbox, or comfort and sport etc etc.

Maybe a good start to a new thread, Things that annoy me most in a car. For me number one will be touchscreens.

[Barry14UK]

41 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

80% of those fiddly things are useless toys you only use once. All you need is a steeringwheel, speedo, wipers, heating, airco and thats it really..  No need for 2 mtr wide touchscreens or seats with 178 different settings, or dual zone aircon or 5 different mappings for the engine and 3 different ones for the gearbox, or comfort and sport etc etc.

Maybe a good start to a new thread, Things that annoy me most in a car. For me number one will be touchscreens.

People differ in what they want and are prepared to forgo in cars but when you buy a well loaded car, you don't expect to pay extra for this by way of subscription except for navigation updates.

I would be happy to revert to manually wind up windows, manual seat adjustment and manual rather than electrical steering wheel adjustment.  I also prefer to use my own navigation than have the built in one you have to update at excessive cost.  I don't need enormous size wheels with ultra low profile tyres. What I would like is to have is a space saver  or better still a full size spare wheel with all wheels being the same size.

[rayaans]

Its not any different to adding options on the car. 

and itll probably be hacked reasonably quickly.

[Spock66]

2 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Its not any different to adding options on the car. 

I disagree, I have options such as Panoramic Sunroof, ML Sound System, Head Up Display, Blind Spot Monitor etc. All of these require additional physical components and manufacturing costs, albeit the person with the base model will have helped fund the R&D and may have some of the underlying infrastructure such as common wiring loom etc for these extras.

[route66]

2 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Worked in a company selling those stalks to Peugeot, VW and a couple of other car importers cheaper than they could buy from manufacturer. The harness needed to be a bit changed as well for most of the cars.

For the Golf, I think it was in 2008 when changes to the wiring wasn't required - just replace the stalk and recode

[Malc]

43 minutes ago, Barry14UK said:

or better still a full size spare wheel with all wheels being the same size.

harking back to the space age inception of my Ls400 

and my oh my, what progress since eh !

Malc

[Linas.P]

In some sense this doesn't scare me as much, I am certain that as long as heated seats exists in the car, the function could be hacked. It is silly when you need to hack your own car to use what is already installed in it and most likely you have paid for anyway, but if I have to I will hack it. Good luck for BMW trying to prove to me that I have "pirated" heated seats in my car.

[ColinBarber]

5 hours ago, Huwge said:

I believe Tesla have been doing this for some considerable time. First owner buys car and specs it with lots of extra 'toys'. 

When it is sold on, everything is disabled by Tesla, making the car the basic model once again unless the new owner buys them again

 

5 hours ago, Malc said:

 

that's just terrible 

Malc

 

Yes it would be terrible if true, but it isn't.

Upgrades stay with the car, and you see some owners upset by this and wishing it moved with them to their new Tesla.

[PaulWhitt20]

Can I just pay for the heated seats in December and January then not pay the rest of the year?

[Malc]

12 hours ago, PaulWhitt20 said:

Can I just pay for the heated seats in December and January

in my 2006 Honda Legend I also have cooling seats too .....  does Lexii etc not have those too ?

Malc

[Mr Vlad]

My is250 has cooled seats for my bum. 

[PaulWhitt20]

My IS also has cooled seats - I'll pay for them in July and August.

Actually when you look at the cost £15 per month or £180 a year or £1800 over the lifetime of ownership of the car, I'll just wear a coat.

[Malc]

1 minute ago, PaulWhitt20 said:

I'll just wear a coat.

covering your posterior .  how preposterously impossible ........ in summer 

Malc

[PaulWhitt20]

Just now, Malc said:

covering your posterior .  how preposterously impossible ........ in summer 

Malc

The coat is for winter, in the summer I take my jumper off.

[Linas.P]

15 hours ago, PaulWhitt20 said:

Can I just pay for the heated seats in December and January then not pay the rest of the year?

Well, I guess that is seriously their marketing strategy. Instead of paying £600 upfront, you can have it switched on only for 2 months a year for 3 years of your lease for £18/month, making it £108. Obviously, they probably expect people to forget to cancel the subscription and let it run year long for 5 years, making them more money than just selling it upfront. 

In either case, these subscription based features are just stupid in my opinion and I can't see any positive about it. 

 

[dutchie01]

All brands are experimenting with this new form of income if successfull could be a new businessmodel. Subscription to a car seems to work, volvo already has 15% of sales from that. Accessories by subscription is another way, mercedes is doing this with the new S and E models including the EV variants. For instance 4 wheel steering. Without paying a monthly fee you get 3 degrees and when you pay 13 or something. Interesting. I have an app downloaded from the appstore which costs me only 0.99 a month. absolutely nothing i hear you say, only its on my phone now for 4 years so you do the maths.

[Malc]

I'm quite flabbergasted that people are content to pay for their cars in this way .  never ending .......  and the impact that must be having for future values and prices when on-sold to another ..  not just in the UK or the western world  .......... but the huge marketplace for dead and dying, but serviceable car models throughout Asia and Africa

not sure where the final resting places will be for these new electronic controlled marques / models except for the SCRAPPER with negligible value coz they will be unusable beasts for sure

I see very many older cars, vans, trucks etc queued-up for export from Sheerness docks on Sheppey, Kent where I live ..... these vehicles have another life somewhere for sure ..  future high tech cars .....  on subscription, just won't maybe 

Malc