Why are folk selling their is250's

[toffee_pie]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

What doesn't help either is that GS450h prices got stuck like 4-5 years ago and they haven't depreciated even a bit. 5 years ago they were like 14-15k, now they are 12-13k. It is just ridiculous that in first 5 years those cars depreciated by 75% (I mean they were £60-70k new) and for the second 5 years, they literally stuck with the price and didn't depreciate even 10% more. I guess inflations does amazing things. If the trend would have followed, now they should be £4-6k and that would be no brainer, but for £13k there is quite a few cars to choose. I guess the other big reason - Lexus barely sold few 100 and almost none of the facelift ones, so supply on mk4 GS in UK is just non-existent which keeps the prices-up.

I know it is repetitive, but imagine if we had GS350 in UK, same gearbox as IS-F, they even had AWD (although that used standard 6-speed auto and generally RWD is better to drive) - how amazing would be that?!

AWD is amazing, take it from someone who has a Subaru with proper AWD - Looking at fast cars is well and good but if you are putting 400 odd horses through one pair of wheels it can get a bit tricky at times. I would not pay 14k for a GS450h let alone 70k - I would get a LS460 at least that got a V8 and a proper auto box. The AWD LS460 would be great, if one came for sale I probably would buy it - seems like they only sold 1 or 2 in England however and it looks more rare than what I currently drive - 37 cars made with matching spec - 17 sold in UK

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

AWD is amazing, take it from someone who has a Subaru with proper AWD - Looking at fast cars is well and good but if you are putting 400 odd horses through one pair of wheels it can get a bit tricky at times. I would not pay 14k for a GS450h let alone 70k - I would get a LS460 at least that got a V8 and a proper auto box. The AWD LS460 would be great, if one came for sale I probably would buy it - seems like they only sold 1 or 2 in England however and it looks more rare than what I currently drive - 37 cars made with matching spec - 17 sold in UK

AWD makes steering very dull, it is great for low grip environment (i.e. rally on gravel), but is less than ideal if you want spirited driving on smooth road. I understand benefits of AWD and for some cars it makes sense, but definitely not on GS350, especially considering that compromise you have to make on gearbox. 306hp isn't too much to handle for rear wheels, but even if it would get tricky then that is part of the "fun". 

But I agree with you on the prices - GS was not very competitive new and it is still not competitive used. With hindsight it was good buy in 2018, as if one have bought it then they had no inflation whatsoever on the car (although that is true for most cars nowadays, I even managed to make £4000 by buying RC and keeping it for few years).

There are some rare unicorns called mk3 GS460, which  do pop from time to time on sale, but I didn't know there was AWD LS in UK. 

[F.A.]

15 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

AWD is amazing, take it from someone who has a Subaru with proper AWD - Looking at fast cars is well and good but if you are putting 400 odd horses through one pair of wheels it can get a bit tricky at times. I would not pay 14k for a GS450h let alone 70k - I would get a LS460 at least that got a V8 and a proper auto box. The AWD LS460 would be great, if one came for sale I probably would buy it - seems like they only sold 1 or 2 in England however and it looks more rare than what I currently drive - 37 cars made with matching spec - 17 sold in UK

I would be surprised if  a GS450h was 70k as the GSF was around  £73k. 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, F.A. said:

I would be surprised if  a GS450h was 70k as the GSF was around  £73k. 

I think the base started from £52k for 2012, the facelift started at £58k if memory serves. So by the time you get F-Sport or Premier, add ML, few more options it was not far from £70k, maybe £65k. Still it was a lot. One can certainly get BMW M5 for same money (be it very basic M5).

Lexus really banked on it being "hybrid" and it was kind of unique in that aspect for some time, but it did not matter, because whole point of hybrid was lower BIK... yet in UK the way pollution and taxes were calculated gave no benefit to GS450h whatsoever. So it was basically dead on arrival and then BMW came out with 530e and MB with E350e few years later, which both were plug-ins and much lower BIK/tax... which was final nail in the coffin for GS. 

[toffee_pie]

23 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

AWD makes steering very dull, it is great for low grip environment (i.e. rally on gravel), but is less than ideal if you want spirited driving on smooth road. I understand benefits of AWD and for some cars it makes sense, but definitely not on GS350, especially considering that compromise you have to make on gearbox. 306hp isn't too much to handle for rear wheels, but even if it would get tricky then that is part of the "fun". 

Wet roads, corners - motorways in the wet driving fast or country roads - AWD any day and the weather in England is unpredictable most of the time. The quickest I drove my Subaru was going from Dublin to Cork one Christmas years ago, it was around 120mph on the motorway going down and it was wet also - no problem at all, I eased off when I looked at the speedo but didn’t think I was going that fast. The Subaru’s with manual gearboxes have 50/50 torque bias also which makes for a perfect 'sport' mode - right out of the box, hydraulic steering also so no computers involved.

I have been looking at cars like Jaguars with 500bhp but having all that power at rear wheels without even LSD seems a disaster waiting to happen

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

I have been looking at cars like Jaguars with 500bhp but having all that power at rear wheels without even LSD seems a disaster waiting to happen

LSD is certainly preferable, although not much help if you start aquaplaning, but even AWD is not much help in such case. I personally never had issues with RWD cars in any weather, the worst you can get in UK is just a little bit wet. Nothing compared to the place I learned to drive with 20cm snow over the ice and -30C in winter... Although I haven't driven may car with more than 300hp for long time. The key is experience driving on slippery road and good tyres, that is why I can't understand people on chinesium dichfinders asking for trouble on the roads - they are danger to everyone, not just themselves. Cheap tyres should be illegal 😄 

[toffee_pie]

33 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

LSD is certainly preferable, although not much help if you start aquaplaning, but even AWD is not much help in such case. I personally never had issues with RWD cars in any weather, the worst you can get in UK is just a little bit wet. Nothing compared to the place I learned to drive with 20cm snow over the ice and -30C in winter... Although I haven't driven may car with more than 300hp for long time. The key is experience driving on slippery road and good tyres, that is why I can't understand people on chinesium dichfinders asking for trouble on the roads - they are danger to everyone, not just themselves. Cheap tyres should be illegal 😄 

I live in the country, wouldn’t swap my car for anything particularly during adverse weather, cannot beat the handling a Subaru provides - in the wet it’s in a league of its own, have done many motorway runs in the SE of England in torrential rain and it’s like having the outside lane to yourself, my car doesn’t have traction control only ABS and the only time that activated was about a month ago when I was taking an acute roundabout way too quickly.

+1 on Tyres, the first thing I done when I looked at this car was inspecting the tyres, I was looking for 2 things- Brand name and 4 matching tyres. Everything checked out. If an owner cannot afford tyres they probably cannot afford to service it 

[H3XME]

11 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

I live in the country, wouldn’t swap my car for anything particularly during adverse weather, cannot beat the handling a Subaru provides - in the wet it’s in a league of its own, have done many motorway runs in the SE of England in torrential rain and it’s like having the outside lane to yourself, my car doesn’t have traction control only ABS and the only time that activated was about a month ago when I was taking an acute roundabout way too quickly.

Yes, Subarus are good when they're in their element. Otherwise they're not amazing. And you can't compare a farmer's car with luxury cruisers. AWD is not going to do a lot at all when you start aquaplaning, so staying "safe" at 120 in wet is down to your tyres more than anything else. As I fellow Subaru owner, albeit Toyota GT86(BRZ), they are quite good driver's cars, but nothing more than that. I had an Aussie imported manual SF Forester and as fun as it was on the fields, there was nothing more to it. I sold it a year later because 1) we don't get no snow here and the little we do, I will enjoy more with a RWD car 2) No luxuries in the car 3) Really crap on fuel - can't justify it with performance

[Steven9233]

On 6/27/2022 at 3:18 PM, SeanR said:

How much does it cost to get something newer and better, £18000 ?, £23000 ?,  £30000 +++++++++++++++

 

Il stick with this one,

 

No matter what car you get, the novelty wears off, especially when signed up to a BIG loan.

 

I actually think mine drives like a new car. As for speed, its fast enough, suppose im an old get now though that has no interest in acceleration, so long as its not annoyingly slow.

Dont wanna be taking out warranty on BMWs, Audi or Merc that are out of their manufacturers warranty. 

Been burned by a 7 year old Merc once, never again. Engine out and £3000 less in bank.

Money pit.

I was in motor trade for 12 years some time back , I knew before most that German cars especially Audi and merc are utter trash when it comes to reliability and “German engineering “ marketing tripe , the big stuff old E class etc were great but everything else is garbage , Honda / Toyota (Lexus ) are far far superior in engineering terms , but lack the so called image that people with no knowledge lust over . They have got progressively worse I’d rather drive a Honda jazz than a Audi A4 TDI or a merc C class , I simply couldn’t afford the catastrophic failure they all seem to get .  My old accord coupe was in family 22 years ( dads before mine ) ) ) never , not once had a fault or let us down , no one on this planet could say the same for a german car guaranteed Honda - Lexus - Toyota - happy life . Simple’s . 

[SeanR]

Before i got the IS250 (and think im repeating myself here) i was looking at C or E class. E class had better build quality than the C class, 

All 2 litre models had timing chain issues, hence was looking at the E350 which had a better rep for reliability. Then though, less economy.

Then, nearly bought a 2014 BMW 520. Again, timing chain issues. 

I spoke to an independent BMW specialist, asked him a price for a service and mentioned the timing belt issue.

His honest reply was "At 80,000 miles they ALL start to rattle"

On top of that you have the air suspension on some cars. Guy at work just spent £2000 plus having that repaired,

From then on, just looked at Lexus, even though the economy was not as good, i felt id rather live with that then be worrying about paying out for repairs/timing chain.

Older Mercs were better, my brov still drives a 1989 300CE, never had an issue.

New ones are not made to last.

Spent £3000 fixing a worn sprocket on a Merc CLS, it had only done about 60,000 miles.

They are expensive junk

Nice drive though, when all is well.

[toffee_pie]

9 hours ago, H3XME said:

Yes, Subarus are good when they're in their element. Otherwise they're not amazing. And you can't compare a farmer's car with luxury cruisers. AWD is not going to do a lot at all when you start aquaplaning, so staying "safe" at 120 in wet is down to your tyres more than anything else. As I fellow Subaru owner, albeit Toyota GT86(BRZ), they are quite good driver's cars, but nothing more than that. I had an Aussie imported manual SF Forester and as fun as it was on the fields, there was nothing more to it. I sold it a year later because 1) we don't get no snow here and the little we do, I will enjoy more with a RWD car 2) No luxuries in the car 3) Really crap on fuel - can't justify it with performance

I suggest you drive a 6 speed SpecB but you never did and never will, a bit ironic saying Farmers when you have a BRZ, if you want some decent compact coupe at least get a Porsche Cayman 3.4 - A BRZ wouldn’t entertain me at all.

This red Ford ST was taking interest to my car a few years back, I wasn’t even pushing my car - if I drove it hard that car couldn’t keep up and it would easily outpace your BRZ.

The farmers Subaru would leave your BRZ or Lexus behind quite easily on a B road

or a motorway for that matter

 

 

[toffee_pie]

A shame the IS350 wasnt sold in the UK - they have AWD versions also but for some reason Lexus never sold any of them here, ditto to the AWD LS460

[toffee_pie]

9 hours ago, Steven9233 said:

I was in motor trade for 12 years some time back , I knew before most that German cars especially Audi and merc are utter trash when it comes to reliability and “German engineering “ marketing tripe , the big stuff old E class etc were great but everything else is garbage , Honda / Toyota (Lexus ) are far far superior in engineering terms , but lack the so called image that people with no knowledge lust over . They have got progressively worse I’d rather drive a Honda jazz than a Audi A4 TDI or a merc C class , I simply couldn’t afford the catastrophic failure they all seem to get .  My old accord coupe was in family 22 years ( dads before mine ) ) ) never , not once had a fault or let us down , no one on this planet could say the same for a german car guaranteed Honda - Lexus - Toyota - happy life . Simple’s . 

Agree 100% German cars live on the brand image and marketing, when you look at cars like the Lexus LS, none of the high end german cars can meet that level of build quality. I learnt my lesson with a CL55 AMG, The engine was fantastic, which is more that could be said of the rest of the car

[H3XME]

26 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

I suggest you drive a 6 speed SpecB but you never did and never will, a bit ironic saying Farmers when you have a BRZ, if you want some decent compact coupe at least get a Porsche Cayman 3.4 - A BRZ wouldn’t entertain me at all.

This red Ford ST was taking interest to my car a few years back, I wasn’t even pushing my car - if I drove it hard that car couldn’t keep up and it would easily outpace your BRZ.

The farmers Subaru would leave your BRZ or Lexus behind quite easily on a B road

or a motorway for that matter

 

 

You sound upset😂

I have driven a 3.0L 6 speed Legacy wagon.. I was looking at getting them at one point but I didn't after I drove it. Underwhelming. Sounds great on paper though. 

You're comparing apples to oranges. It's like me saying why didn't you get a S4 instead, you melon.

It's a FWD 180hp Fiesta ST180 with open diff you're stroking your ego up against there. I'll give you this, on a wet country road, yes, maybe (depending on your driving skill). On dry, legacy wouldn't stand a chance against the 86. The beauty of them is that they can out run more powerful cars because they're light, nimble and balanced, but I take it you've never done any track days to know what cars are like when they're pushed to the traction limit beyond 70mph and you're only ever giving the big-un when you can fully utilise the awd system on slick roads. - like I said. Great in their element a.k.a sh*t weather. Otherwise they're nothing special in terms of performance. Be better off having the EJ20 Spec B.

[toffee_pie]

14 minutes ago, H3XME said:

You sound upset😂

I have driven a 3.0L 6 speed Legacy wagon.. I was looking at getting them at one point but I didn't after I drove it. Underwhelming. Sounds great on paper though. 

You're comparing apples to oranges. It's like me saying why didn't you get a S4 instead, you melon.

It's a FWD 180hp Fiesta ST180 with open diff you're stroking your ego up against there. I'll give you this, on a wet country road, yes, maybe (depending on your driving skill). On dry, legacy wouldn't stand a chance against the 86. The beauty of them is that they can out run more powerful cars because they're light, nimble and balanced, but I take it you've never done any track days to know what cars are like when they're pushed to the traction limit beyond 70mph and you're only ever giving the big-un when you can fully utilise the awd system on slick roads. - like I said. Great in their element a.k.a sh*t weather. Otherwise they're nothing special in terms of performance. Be better off having the EJ20 Spec B.

When one resorts to foul language there is only one getting worked up here

The Fiesta ST3 would outpace any of your luke warm cars without trying – My Subaru would put that in its place and your BRZ would not even compete with the ST3 – If you want to back stab cars at least own something a bit better. And if you are still not convinced let me know when you are next doing a track day – wet or dry works with me 

The 3.0 is more reliable and sounds way better than the 2.0 EJ, next time drive a 6-speed saloon - that’s why I prefer them. 

And no S4 because of what the previous posters said about German metal being unreliable junk, I need something for a daily

[Linas.P]

22 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

+1 on Tyres, the first thing I done when I looked at this car was inspecting the tyres, I was looking for 2 things- Brand name and 4 matching tyres. Everything checked out. If an owner cannot afford tyres they probably cannot afford to service it 

That is wisdom speak. I can probably accept the car with two matching premium tyre on the front and another two matching premium tyres on the rear, but nothing below that. Tyres are CHEAP and they are the only thing keeping car on the road. No only that - premium tyres works out cheaper, because they last longer, so it is double no-brainer. Not only it is most crucial for safe driving, but as well cheaper to have good tyres.

No 350 is real shame, IS, RC, GS... it would be genuine premium performance option without going into extremely expensive and unpractical F. I would still go for RWD, because Lexus does not do good AWD (I have owned IS250 AWD and it had wooden steering and lazy shifts +20% fuel consumption), but 350 would be so cool in UK. 

[H3XME]

7 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

When one resorts to foul language there is only one getting worked up here

The Fiesta ST3 would outpace any of your luke warm cars without trying – My Subaru would put that in its place and your BRZ would not even compete with the ST3 – If you want to back stab cars at least own something a bit better. And if you are still not convinced let me know when you are next doing a track day – wet or dry works with me 

The 3.0 is more reliable and sounds way better than the 2.0 EJ, next time drive a 6-speed saloon - that’s why I prefer them. 

And no S4 because of what the previous posters said about German metal being unreliable junk, I need something for a daily

Made me laugh because it was a silly comparison on your part...

"Something better" subjective. The fact is that BRZ/86 does a short track such as Wakefield Park in 1:10 stock. Legacy Spec B does it in 1:13.. There you go then. 

[H3XME]

19 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is wisdom speak. I can probably accept the car with two matching premium tyre on the front and another two matching premium tyres on the rear, but nothing below that. Tyres are CHEAP and they are the only thing keeping car on the road. No only that - premium tyres works out cheaper, because they last longer, so it is double no-brainer. Not only it is most crucial for safe driving, but as well cheaper to have good tyres.

No 350 is real shame, IS, RC, GS... it would be genuine premium performance option without going into extremely expensive and unpractical F. I would still go for RWD, because Lexus does not do good AWD (I have owned IS250 AWD and it had wooden steering and lazy shifts +20% fuel consumption), but 350 would be so cool in UK. 

IS350 is a matter of ~£8000 these days. Get one from Japan. RC on the other hand.. That we both really want is still very expensive😪

UK climate doesn't justify AWD unless you're  a muddy farmer, into green laning or just scared of RWD..

[Mr Vlad]

WOW. Well I'm back from the worst Bowness break I've had in 18 years. As far as music goes I'm a headbanger. But what the ###k the room we stayed in. Converted atic. Banged my head don't know how many times. Think that's what made me ill aswell as getting a cold. But I digress. The drive back was back on the old route. Yes I broke the speed limits 75% of the time and the cars fuel economy was excellent. 36mpg. Well chuffed. 

I read a comment that the seat squab is too short and none adjustable like in some beemers. Yes I can fully see that. Glad I'm only 5'8" coz when we got out of the car after a solid 1hr45 drive we were as fresh feeling as a fresh thing. 

As for which car can out handle another? Well that's purely down to the driver. Now I like Ford's. I've had a few. But from that video how does one know it's a ST3? I couldn't tell. It could have been a ST2 or just a ST but it was a fiesta. The number after the letters is trim level and nothing to do with performance. Comparing one type of car to another. A good few years back I had a 240bhp 5 door hatchback. A Ford Mondeo titanium x sport. Once whilst going to a classic car show in Cheshire (not tatton) down a favourite road of mine the A34 I caught up to a ferrari. At lights he'd out drag me but he was utter bobbins round corners and I caught up to him in no time. I got peed off with him thinking what a #osser just coz you can afford it but you can drive it. So at a set of lights with a bend a few hundred yards ahead I drew along side him. I anticipated the lights perfectly and I got to the bend first and thatcwas it. He was out of my mirror within a minute. True story.

I don't think I could drive a scooby to do it justice nowadays but I know someone who can tie one up in knots. Its purely down to the driver. 

I understand why folk get rid of their is250's. I felt close when my alternator went. 

 

 

[toffee_pie]

2 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

But from that video how does one know it's a ST3?

It was a ST3, I get quite a few drivers up my bumper but not normally in full on WRC mode so I pinged in the reg to find out what it was, it’s a very quick car the ST3 and should out pace this car on a track easily but it’s all about the driver, like you and the Ferrari.

Unlike the IS250 which is common with probably thousands on the road only 17 saloons like mine even sold in the UK, can assume many are crashed or written off now. I knew it was a bit rare when I bought it but no idea this much rare - the sound of the engine is enough reason to keep it and the handling is just the best - The hardcore Impreza’s with DCCD can dial in torque bias to suite needs but with a 50/50 split like this has you are pretty much set for optimal conditions all the time.

So, the Subaru is a different beast entirely to the IS250 but its draining on your back and posture in general especially around town, well if you are over 40 that is - I couldn’t use it as a daily if I was in the city, I was close to selling it in 2019 as I was between jobs but moved to the countryside and just kept it. A WRX STi is quicker but not really feasible for a daily unless you have rubber joints and the running costs are worse

When I had the Lexus, my wife used to be asleep in the passenger’s seat on journeys, never does she sleep in the Subaru.

I have it way too long and would look at getting a replacement but my driveway can only do 2 cars so any replacement out the window

On 8/23/2022 at 8:36 PM, H3XME said:

UK climate doesn't justify AWD unless you're  a muddy farmer, into green laning or just scared of RWD..

I disagree, If you live in rural areas you cant beat the safety AWD brings and it rains a lot in England,  if your GT86 was behind me at a corner I would leave it trailing coming out of it becaue of the AWD - just as happened to the ST3 in fact and it doesnt mater if its wet or dry I just need to shift up exiting the corner and you are gone, 3rd to 4th gear gets up to around 100mph, rather quickly at that.

This is the beast from the east (when it had summer tyres on - now have all season)

And overtaking is so easy and with so many useless people being unable to overtake nowadays that surge of speed from 3rd gear is very useful - not bad for a farmers car

 

[toffee_pie]

On 8/23/2022 at 8:17 PM, Linas.P said:

Tyres are CHEAP

I think many would disagree with that,  they can get pretty expensive! but anyone who gets ditch finders is asking for trouble

[Linas.P]

24 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

I think many would disagree with that,  they can get pretty expensive! but anyone who gets ditch finders is asking for trouble

In upfront cost - I guess yes. But everything needs to be put into right perspective. On Lexus IS250 17" premium tyres are £80-90, the budgets are £40-50. So if one is replacing the whole set - yes that is like double the cost, but is it really a big cost? £320 fitted vs £200 fitted, sure one can save £120 upfront, but what is that 1.5 petrol tank? For a part which will last 20-30k miles vs. the one which will last 15k miles? Just considering the mileage premiums already works out cheaper, but they as well more likely be more fuel efficient. So in fact one may save money by having more expensive tyres. As such I would say saving on budget tyres is always false economy.

And by the way, I am not saying one has to always but Michelin, there are few decent mid-range tyres, which slightly cheaper and still safe. Although to be fair most of the time difference between premium and mid-range in my case was like £8 per tyre... is it really make sense to compromise on that? I just can't see it. And considering car ownership costs thousands of £, saving on tyres which are the most important thing for safety is never the right place to save on. 

Now sure, when we get to 19" the difference in price may be more substantial, but at the same time difference in fuel economy and mileage will be more substantial as well. 

But I guess it does not matter anyway... many people could not even check their tyre pressures properly, so they end-up destroying perfectly good tyres just by running them underinflated etc. So it is as pointless as trying to teach deaf and blind person how to read. People just don't care about cars, about driving and this information won't reach their brain anyway.

That said - I think you made good point, if you want to see how car was maintained, just look at the tyres (and I always do that). One thing you don't want for sure is to buy the car from the person who didn't care about maintenance.. and nothing screams more about it than budget tyres. 

[Mr Vlad]

Tyres are a myriad of questions and answers and arguments. And that's a shame. I'd bet that a majority of car owners go off the recommendation of the tyre shop they go to. Me I buy branded tyres. Yes years ago I only ever bought part worn but branded. I can't remember what the cheap tyres on the front of my car But they're actually really really good. 

Yes Ford ST cars are fast and go round bends almost like on rails. If the dealer offered me a decent part ex then I'd have had the focus (some yeas back and the 2.0) as it impressed me a lot.

[H3XME]

12 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

 

And overtaking is so easy and with so many useless people being unable to overtake nowadays that surge of speed from 3rd gear is very useful - not bad for a farmers car

 

Eric, I'm not saying the EZ30 Legacy is slow, I'm just saying it can't compare to everything only because it's AWD and has almost 250hp. (>Supposedly.. Subaru, like other manufacturers tend to be figure happy on paper. Stock BRZ/86 isn't 200hp either like they claim. - I had it dyno'd when it was stock) Either way, it is still more powerful/better than most cars on the roads even today.

Your AWD system will significantly help you in bad conditions, otherwise it's arguable. You will also take corners differently to me, you can't step on it mid corner to "tighten" the line or it'll want to understeer/ naturally take wider line because of your almost evenly split power delivery. On dry tarmac racing you will find your Subaru to be not as good as RWD cars or AWD cars with better split between rear wheels. BMW X-Drive, Skyline GT-Rs... They can all send up to 95% power to rear wheels. If you prefer AWD, fine, it's a preference. It sure does make you feel like nothing (or a lot less) can go wrong as you can drive fast more relaxed because it can save your a*s like a safety cushion. A lot of people with RWD cars are guilty of over-tyre-ing their cars because it makes them feel safer, but it ruins the handling of the car. Whatever you're comfortable with, but coming at me saying my car is sh*t, not knowing anything about its suspension, alignment, brakes or tyres and the purpose of the setup is a silly thing to do. One thing is sure though, less than 15mins of driving to the max on twisty B roads and you're done with the Legacy because you'll cook the brakes. 

[SeanR]

On 8/22/2022 at 8:35 PM, toffee_pie said:

AWD is amazing, take it from someone who has a Subaru with proper AWD - Looking at fast cars is well and good but if you are putting 400 odd horses through one pair of wheels it can get a bit tricky at times. I would not pay 14k for a GS450h let alone 70k - I would get a LS460 at least that got a V8 and a proper auto box. The AWD LS460 would be great, if one came for sale I probably would buy it - seems like they only sold 1 or 2 in England however and it looks more rare than what I currently drive - 37 cars made with matching spec - 17 sold in UK

Great in the snow, remember flying past folk that were stuck, basically anything rear wheel driven.