Rear inner wing replacement.

[Bluesman]

Anybody have any idea what replacements inner rear wings fitted would you expect to pay? 

[Malc]

Mike, hi  .... Ive never heard of this before  .........  what could be the issue with it ?   Can you even get hold of one ?

Malc

[steve2006]

I’m guessing here at the parts shown ( the rear outer wheel arch section) ?

Looks like a rear quarter section outer panel removal to gain access.....a lot of work and cost.

[Bluesman]

On 5/28/2022 at 2:42 PM, Malc said:

Mike, hi  .... Ive never heard of this before  .........  what could be the issue with it ?   Can you even get hold of one ?

Malc

Sorry for the late reply not been to well. I will get some pictures and post them tomorrow.

[Bluesman]

8 hours ago, steve2006 said:

I’m guessing here at the parts shown ( the rear outer wheel arch section) ?

Looks like a rear quarter section outer panel removal to gain access.....a lot of work and cost.

Hi Steve. Many thanks for the info. They tell me that they aren't part of the main structure and are there to protect for the ingress of water etc.

Not sure what to do for the best.

[Malc]

Have they rotted through or is this just preventative longshot maintenance ? or salvageable with filler etc maybe .......... if it's just preventing ingress of water ...  road water splahes and floods maybe  ?

Malc

[Malc]

Posted March 15, 2020

I think both the LS 400 and LS 430 are lovely cars. I got a beautiful LS 400 with 80000 miles on  it (now only 83000) and had the car dinitroled, the only problem area is the inner wheel arches, which I only discovered last week. I am having them professionally sorted, which involves, rust removal and then plating and  welding, painting/rust proofing and then job done. This car is worth this expensive work being done as its sills, floorpan and other areas bar the inner wheel arches are mega solid. I would have advertised her this week as I have another dream car in my sights but will not sell until I get the car in a position that I would be happy to buy same.

 

Mike, whilst idling away on here I found this post from way back from a   GUEST 

the only mention of inner wheel arches i ever remember seeing

Malc

[TimUK]

On 5/30/2022 at 3:25 PM, Malc said:

Posted March 15, 2020

I think both the LS 400 and LS 430 are lovely cars. I got a beautiful LS 400 with 80000 miles on  it (now only 83000) and had the car dinitroled, the only problem area is the inner wheel arches, which I only discovered last week. I am having them professionally sorted, which involves, rust removal and then plating and  welding, painting/rust proofing and then job done. This car is worth this expensive work being done as its sills, floorpan and other areas bar the inner wheel arches are mega solid. I would have advertised her this week as I have another dream car in my sights but will not sell until I get the car in a position that I would be happy to buy same.

 

Mike, whilst idling away on here I found this post from way back from a   GUEST 

the only mention of inner wheel arches i ever remember seeing

Malc

My understanding is that rust in the rear inner arches is a very common issue (a quick Google brings up plenty of references to it).  I had exactly the same issue as the one described in that post from 2020, except my car had done 150K.  It wasn't an MOT fail, however, it was starting to let water into the boot, which is how I first discovered the rust.  I had exactly the same work done as the original poster, except I had the whole rear end Waxoyled as the subframe is also vulnerable to rust.  I can't remember the exact cost but I think it was around £700.  That was a few years ago and the inner arches are still solid, but there are now a few slight bubbles appearing on the outer arches. 

So at some point I'm going to have to decide what to do next.  I did briefly chat to a guy who used to do full classic car restorations and he said it could easily end up being £1500 per side if you wanted the inner/outer arches repaired to A1 with fabricated repair sections and the rear quarter painted.  He assumed that new repair sections wouldn't be available.  Obviously this is a lot of money, but with the value of the cars going up, it could eventually become viable in those cars (like mine) where the rest of the car is rust free.     

[Razor61]

8 hours ago, TimUK said:

My understanding is that rust in the rear inner arches is a very common issue

You are 100% correct……….from my experience looking at quite a few LS400’s the area that can be affected varies depending on whether it’s a MK3 or MK4.
Mk3 can be checked around the rear inner arch where it meets the exterior bodywork and in the boot areas under the flaps on the lh and rh sides. Bottom of the rear arches are the main areas of concern.
MK4 seems to rust in a different way, the best way to check is to remove the side trims in the boot and the tool box assembly then look down the side and check the condition of the inner wings/arches. However, if there are already rust bubbles on the outside of the rear wing where the rear wing meets the bumper at the boot end, it’s probably too late and there are already holes in the rear wing/arches. Checking things as said above will confirm it.
I suspect there are a lot of LS400 owners with this issue or the start of this issue and don’t know it.

[Malc]

2 hours ago, Razor61 said:

I suspect there are a lot of LS400 owners with this issue or the start of this issue and don’t know it.

and my amazement continues that our revered limos are still around at 21 - 33 years of age when almost every other marque has long since " bitten the dust " and gone off to make baked bean tins 

I'm quite expecting at some stage to face the horrible fact that the old gal will end up totally uneconomic to keep going .......... through rust maybe ?..........  or some silly event can write her off willy nilly thru' bad driving by someone ( in a Beemer maybe  ) at any time .. indeed mines on a write-off Cat N status and fully restoring her rear doors that have wonkyness wrinklies from slight smacks makes total restoration a bit silly at her now 238.5k miles and probable tiny value ......... but until that final " smack " happens .....  and who knows if or when it might, or never, I live in hope that I've got the luxury of my almost zero value limo for a while longer

I'm not worrying too much about pristine appearances for sure

Malc

[TimUK]

2 hours ago, Razor61 said:

MK4 seems to rust in a different way, the best way to check is to remove the side trims in the boot and the tool box assembly then look down the side and check the condition of the inner wings/arches. However, if there are already rust bubbles on the outside of the rear wing where the rear wing meets the bumper at the boot end, it’s probably too late and there are already holes in the rear wing/arches. Checking things as said above will confirm it.
I suspect there are a lot of LS400 owners with this issue or the start of this issue and don’t know it.

The rust bubbles on my Mk3 are in a different position to what you describe for the Mk4 as they are at 1 o'clock and 9 o'clock.  So I don't know if this is the typical place or not for a Mk3?  Either way, the bubbling only appeared after the issue was identified in the inner arches, so I agree that there are probably plenty of owners that haven't noticed the issue yet.

[Malc]

14 minutes ago, TimUK said:

as they are at 1 o'clock and 9 o'clock.  So I don't know if this is the typical place or not for a Mk3? 

on my Mk3 the only rust bubbles I have ( or ever seen ) are on the offside exterior rear wheel arch at about ---- Midday to 5pm'ish ......  all else, on the face of it, even after a good hosing of the inner arches all round, reveals nowt of even surface rust 

it's the sod-ing rust on that front weird mild steel exhaust box that's now got to be sorted and it's going in for fabrication of a new box and bits at a local'ish specialist sports exhaust centre to deal with ................... with a half day booked in for next Tuesday 7th  at £300+vat they tell me  ( taking her in Monday to collect Wednesday so thay have all the time necessary should hiccups arise ) 

Malc

[TimUK]

1 hour ago, TimUK said:

The rust bubbles on my Mk3 are in a different position to what you describe for the Mk4 as they are at 1 o'clock and 9 o'clock.  So I don't know if this is the typical place or not for a Mk3?  Either way, the bubbling only appeared after the issue was identified in the inner arches, so I agree that there are probably plenty of owners that haven't noticed the issue yet.

Doh!  I just realised that using a clock to describe the position of the bubbling was pretty stupid given that it depends which side of the car you're looking at!  Basically it's at the top of the arch, and in front of the wheel just above the plastic trim.

[TimUK]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

on my Mk3 the only rust bubbles I have ( or ever seen ) are on the offside exterior rear wheel arch at about ---- Midday to 5pm'ish ......  all else, on the face of it, even after a good hosing of the inner arches all round, reveals nowt of even surface rust

Similar place to mine then.  So either you're lucky and this is just rust from a previously repaired scrape, or it's rusting from the inside of the arch, in which case I'd say it's inevitable that the inner arch will also be affected.  My inner arches didn't actually look rusty, it was only when I started poking around that I discovered the weakened metal. 

[LenT]

4 hours ago, TimUK said:

The rust bubbles on my Mk3 are in a different position to what you describe for the Mk4 as they are at 1 o'clock and 9 o'clock.  So I don't know if this is the typical place or not for a Mk3?  Either way, the bubbling only appeared after the issue was identified in the inner arches, so I agree that there are probably plenty of owners that haven't noticed the issue yet.

As a digression, this reminds me of a similar problem I had with a Honda Prelude.  At approaching 120,000 miles and 14 years, I noticed signs of bubbling at the bottom of a rear wheel arch, defiling its otherwise pristine flanks.

A local body shop told me that a plastic inner wheel arch liner had become sufficiently displaced to allow water to get behind it and start localised rusting from within.  Fortunately they made a good job of sorting it out and I took the hint and px’d the Prelude for a new Accord.

[Bluesman]

Many thanks for all your great suggestions.  When I purchased her 12 years ago I always said I would keep her replacing mechanical bits what ever needed but when it came to bodywork with Tinwormilitis  it would be time to say goodbye. She has a MOT until the end of Feb 2023. I have found a car which looks fantastic and with only 73k on the clock to replace her with. It was a hard decision to make but its one that had to be made.

[Malc]

22 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

I have found a car which looks fantastic and with only 73k on the clock to replace her with. It was a hard decision to make but its one that had to be made.

so you're replacing her with ???

Malc

[Malc]

4 hours ago, TimUK said:

Basically it's at the top of the arch, and in front of the wheel just above the plastic trim.

and yours is 2 years younger than mine ...  and I only ever really noticed the " worm " a year or so ago 

Malc

[Razor61]

28 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

I have found a car which looks fantastic and with only 73k on the clock to replace her with. It was a hard decision to make but its one that had to be made.

I think you are doing the right thing, once the rot wreaks havoc at the rear end the cost of repairing can’t normally be justified.

6 hours ago, TimUK said:

The rust bubbles on my Mk3 are in a different position to what you describe for the Mk4

The MK3 tends to rust in areas you don’t notice when washing the car, like any car the lips can rust though.
On the MK4 the bubbling in the area I mentioned is normally caused by a hole (normally about the size of a 50p piece if caught early) further up the inner arch next to where it joins the rear wing. Water gets in and runs down the arch and causes corrosion at the bottom and rusts through in the area I mentioned.

[Malc]

16 hours ago, Razor61 said:

like any car the lips can rust though.

ah of course now you mention it .... I remember that from old past times with " ordinary " cars of the era

maybe hopefully that's all that's the simple issue with mine !

Malc

[Malc]

On 6/1/2022 at 3:14 PM, Bluesman said:

I have found a car which looks fantastic and with only 73k on the clock to replace her with. It was a hard decision to make but its one that had to be made.

c'mon Mike, confess all  

Malc