LC500 V8s back to mid £40k by end of year?

[DavidCM]

19 minutes ago, DtoTheM said:

Exactly this, I'm relatively new to watching the LC500 prices but it seems bonkers Vs what I paid for my 650i GC 5 years ago, that had a list price of 89k and I picked up a 4 year old one for 27,000! And it was mint, absolutely mint you co

It proves BMWs depreciate more than Lexus.Having had the "pleasure"of running a 430d for a month this time last year,whilst my car was being repaired,I can see why.The quality,finish and refinement were very poor.The only positive was it was fast.

[DtoTheM]

16 minutes ago, DavidCM said:

It proves BMWs depreciate more than Lexus.Having had the "pleasure"of running a 430d for a month this time last year,whilst my car was being repaired,I can see why.The quality,finish and refinement were very poor.The only positive was it was fast.

Interesting, on the basis of the lexus I've seen in my hunt I'd say the opposite. However my 650 had the upgraded leather and it's got the polished wood trim, it's now 10 years old and looks better than most of the lc500's I've seen. That said I'm hugely fussy, I've also go a 350e convertible which took months to find one that had the right spec and without the stupid scratchy default metal trim inside. I've no clue about the lower numbers on the BMW range, they never appealed to me and like you the few I've sat in have only reinforced the idea that the badge is what sells the cars. You'd assume given how Carbon copy they are that the materials and quality were the same across most of the line, but that's probably how they get your money!!

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, DavidCM said:

It proves BMWs depreciate more than Lexus.Having had the "pleasure"of running a 430d for a month this time last year,whilst my car was being repaired,I can see why.The quality,finish and refinement were very poor.The only positive was it was fast.

When it comes to depreciation that is perhaps true post pandemic, but it is certainly not universally true. I do agree with the interior thought - if you compare RC to similar year BMW 4-Series then RC really feels like quite special place to be in, you could get that in BMW as well, but you will be spending £8000 for options like extended leather, comfort pack, digital pack and so on. That is not to say Lexus does not have it's own issues, but BMW poverty line interiors can really get very basic. 

Going back to depreciation, for example when I bought my RC, I specifically bought it because it had depreciated tremendously compared competition. To recap in October 2019 I bought RC200t which was first registered on January 2017 with 54k miles for just £15,500... so this was 2 years old car (just about to turn 3) at Lexus dealership and sold for 35% of it's original price. I could not buy similar MB C200 Coupe or BMW 420i for anything like that price. £15,000 would have bought me 2014 BMW 420i with like 120k miles and I think cheapest C-Class Coupe would have been ~£16,500k. Ohhh and by the way it fully loaded with every single possible option available - and this is not usual sales pitch where they say "ever option", but in fact they just list all the features that comes standard and not a single option... no - when I say fully loaded, I mean it had everything and nothing else could be added. 

Now sure argument can be made - "yeah but 200t was kind of trash and literally nobody wanted it" which is true, but at the same time BMW 420i is considered "poverty line" on BMW side (similar 2L Turbo engine), yet they didn't have anywhere near as much depreciation before pandemic. 

Same is true for RC-F... I remember in 2017 used RC-F with mere 30k miles were popping up well under 30k, there were several cars listed at £27,000 and even £25,700... comparing that for example with M4 which kept it's price way better. I even remember having discussion about why Lexus are so expensive to lease, and it was basically all down to depreciation, because Lexus used to depreciate a lot, this automatically means you paying a lot more on the lease as most owners would usually choose not to pay balloon as the car would be worth below it, and that meant Lexus had to put lower balloons on lease, which then automatically increases either deposit or monthly payments.  

Take same LC500 for example. Launched in late 2017 for £89k, several examples with mere 5000 miles were selling at under 50k by late 2019, some as low as 42k. £39k drop in 2 years is A LOT, some were under half-price... again compare to BMW i8 which was launched in 2014 and by late 2019 it was around the same price ~£50k... but that took BMW 5 years to lose about 50% of value (original prices for them I believe was £99k). And it took Lexus LC only 2 years to drop to the same levels. Even today when LC is 6 years old and kind of historically overpriced when compared to BMW i8, it still works out it has depreciated at same rare ~7.5%/year for Lexus and ~7.3% for BMW. 

In summary - I don't think it is true to say that "Lexus always keeps it's value better than BMW", yes it is kind of true for last couple of years, but I would not bet it will last forever. 

[DtoTheM]

I think the "concern" is that times are uncertain, the 2nd hand market has gone a little crazy, mostly due to the pandemic and with electrification rampant it's hard to predict future values, who is to say there won't be a double dip in values in a few years? All cars lose value so it's not like I'm pretending it's some sort of investment. However it would be annoying to buy a used one at peak value, my desire to own one doesn't extending to paying more than I should and I dislike having conversations with sellers listing out issues to address before paying inflated prices!

You can pick up a 2019 850i for 10k less than 2017 LC500's that's bonkers, also I don't want an 850i I want an LC500 😛

[Linas.P]

Indeed, I had spare cash recently and thought maybe I buy something cool to drive again, but with market being so uncertain I just decided not to risk it. As I said - in any sort of economic turmoil used Luxury cars are the first on on the chopping block. As I mentioned there are now i8s on the market for £30k and with decent miles, but I don't want to be in situation paying £30k this year and car plummeting to £20k within a year.

Clearly used cars are in big bubble now, when that bubble burst it could result in anything, prices may reset all the way to what they should be or even below. But that said even BMW i8 for £30k is way safer buy then LC for £50k. I am quite confident BMW i8 won't cost less than £20k in 3 years time, so my risk is what ~£3k a year. But I can easily see LC500 selling for £25k in 3 years time... and I wouldn't want to be one stomaching £8k+ depreciation a year on what already is 6 years old car. Let's not forget - BEV bubble is already bursting, there is no demand, dealers not taking them in, actually they could not sell the new ones, people struggling to sell them privately, it is just a matter of time when they will bring rest of the car market down. And unlike housing bubble (which is massive bubble) there are no backstops, for housing government and banks will do anything to maintain it in the bubble, even if it comes down to spending tax payers money to keep it inflated, with used car markets there are no back-stops, when it busts it bursts and then it is a race to the bottom. So currently I would be very very worried to hold onto expensive car and even more worried to buy into one. Seems like perfect example "buying it when price is high and selling when it is low".

[eightk]

17 hours ago, malcolmw said:

Am I right in thinking that all models of the convertible have leather seats?

Yes - full leather seats even on the sport and the door cards are also leather/plastic because alcantara doesn’t like getting wet - it’s built for the British summer!

[eightk]

Price wise I think a lot of the retained value is the rarity and the fact that most sell via main dealers who can keep the used prices up. The right spec sells quickly. As I’ve previously said I think the ten year warranty also has an effect. BMW i8 outside warranty - err no thanks! The LC seems to be in a class of one - it’s not as sporty as the 911 or F type and not as bargelike as something like BMW and Merc convertibles/coupes, it’s kind of in the middle. Plus it’s not turbod - there aren’t many NA V8s left now…

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, eightk said:

Price wise I think a lot of the retained value is the rarity and the fact that most sell via main dealers who can keep the used prices up. The right spec sells quickly. As I’ve previously said I think the ten year warranty also has an effect. BMW i8 outside warranty - err no thanks! The LC seems to be in a class of one - it’s not as sporty as the 911 or F type and not as bargelike as something like BMW and Merc convertibles/coupes, it’s kind of in the middle. Plus it’s not turbod - there aren’t many NA V8s left now…

Agree that most of them staying within dealership network definitely factor in the price staying high. BMW i8 can be warranted by third parties, but indeed that won't be cheap. However BMW 8-Series compares quite well with LC and getting 12k miles 2020 car for £40k is actually no brainer, you can even get M850i for £43k. Obviously... argument could be had whenever L6 compares with V8, but both have their benefits. If V8 is important then again even M850 is cheaper and then M8 exists, but that costs more. 

[Shahpor]

12 hours ago, DtoTheM said:

You can pick up a 2019 850i for 10k less than 2017 LC500's that's bonkers, also I don't want an 850i I want an LC500 😛

I look this up and couldn't believe the prices.

This used example https://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/vehicle/202303185369869 has lost half its value (£60,000!) in less than 3 years and 8000 miles!

Serious bargain if someone was so inclined.

[Linas.P]

36 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

I look this up and couldn't believe the prices.

This used example https://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/vehicle/202303185369869 has lost half its value (£60,000!) in less than 3 years and 8000 miles!

Serious bargain if someone was so inclined.

And if you not afraid of little bit of miles (guaranteed motorway, because nobody is making 50k in the city in 2 years in M850i) then it get's better - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111270001581

 Just small correction there - M850i Launched at £100k, there was some limited edition for £121k, but neither of cars we posted are that limited edition. So yeah - 40% depreciation on 8000 miles and 55% depreciation over 50k miles.

[eightk]

No offence to the BMW but it looks like every other BMW coupe.

Plus the spec will be so variable because there were so many options that it’ll be hard work to find exactly what you want.

Plus it’ll be out of warranty.

Plus nobody would have paid full price when they were new - these are the cars that were being discounted 20 grand and more in 2019/20. That translates to the used market where they will be impossible to trade in when you’ve got bored with it. Which you will. Very quickly 😀

[DBIZO]

12 hours ago, Shahpor said:

I look this up and couldn't believe the prices.

This used example https://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/vehicle/202303185369869 has lost half its value (£60,000!) in less than 3 years and 8000 miles!

Serious bargain if someone was so inclined.

How is this a bargain? I'm not being funny, genuine question. I just don't see how this car is worth its price. Will it keep its valuation now well? Or is it that you get more car for your money? Because for this money, I can think of plenty of better or more interesting options.

- Mercedes S63 Coupe 2019 Grey Mercedes-Benz S Class 4.0 S560 V8 BiTurbo AMG Line (Premium) Coupe 2dr Petrol G-Tronic Euro 6 (s/s) (469 ps) for sale for £65,995 in Taunton, Somerset (autotrader.co.uk)

- Lexus LC500 

- Aston Martin DB9 2015 Aston Martin DB9 6.0 V12 GT T-TronicII Euro 6 2dr for sale for £64,495 in Wilmslow, Cheshire (autotrader.co.uk)

- Maserati GT: 2018 Grey Maserati Granturismo 4.7 V8 Sport MC Shift Euro 6 2dr for sale for £52,995 in WOKINGHAM, BERKSHIRE (autotrader.co.uk)

- Ferrari 612 Scaglietti ! 2004 Silver Ferrari 612 5.7 Scaglietti FI Coupe 2dr Petrol Automatic (475 g/km, 532 bhp) for sale for £54,995 in EDGWARE, BOROUGH OF BARNET (autotrader.co.uk)

- Any TVR would be more exciting

I really don't see how that BMW 8 is a better choice than any of these. Mercedes is surely more comfortable and has more class; Lexus much more unique (fewer of them, NA V8) and a reliable sporty tourer that will last 250k miles with little chance of problems; Aston and Maserati are better at moderate extravagance; and Ferrari and TVR are extra headturners, and will keep their value much better from now on.

 

[Shahpor]

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

And if you not afraid of little bit of miles (guaranteed motorway, because nobody is making 50k in the city in 2 years in M850i) then it get's better - https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202111270001581

 Just small correction there - M850i Launched at £100k, there was some limited edition for £121k, but neither of cars we posted are that limited edition. So yeah - 40% depreciation on 8000 miles and 55% depreciation over 50k miles.

True.  I was comparing it to buying a new one at the moment, which will cost you over £120k list price in a similar spec.

3 hours ago, eightk said:

No offence to the BMW but it looks like every other BMW coupe.

Plus the spec will be so variable because there were so many options that it’ll be hard work to find exactly what you want.

Plus it’ll be out of warranty.

Plus nobody would have paid full price when they were new - these are the cars that were being discounted 20 grand and more in 2019/20. That translates to the used market where they will be impossible to trade in when you’ve got bored with it. Which you will. Very quickly 😀

Surprisingly, there weren't too many option packs for the 8 series, although the ones it did have were very expensive!

Also, unless my dates are failing me, the one I posted still has its original warranty until August this year.

2 hours ago, DBIZO said:

How is this a bargain? I'm not being funny, genuine question. I just don't see how this car is worth its price. Will it keep its valuation now well? Or is it that you get more car for your money? Because for this money, I can think of plenty of better or more interesting options.

- Mercedes S63 Coupe 2019 Grey Mercedes-Benz S Class 4.0 S560 V8 BiTurbo AMG Line (Premium) Coupe 2dr Petrol G-Tronic Euro 6 (s/s) (469 ps) for sale for £65,995 in Taunton, Somerset (autotrader.co.uk)

- Lexus LC500 

- Aston Martin DB9 2015 Aston Martin DB9 6.0 V12 GT T-TronicII Euro 6 2dr for sale for £64,495 in Wilmslow, Cheshire (autotrader.co.uk)

- Maserati GT: 2018 Grey Maserati Granturismo 4.7 V8 Sport MC Shift Euro 6 2dr for sale for £52,995 in WOKINGHAM, BERKSHIRE (autotrader.co.uk)

- Ferrari 612 Scaglietti ! 2004 Silver Ferrari 612 5.7 Scaglietti FI Coupe 2dr Petrol Automatic (475 g/km, 532 bhp) for sale for £54,995 in EDGWARE, BOROUGH OF BARNET (autotrader.co.uk)

- Any TVR would be more exciting

I really don't see how that BMW 8 is a better choice than any of these. Mercedes is surely more comfortable and has more class; Lexus much more unique (fewer of them, NA V8) and a reliable sporty tourer that will last 250k miles with little chance of problems; Aston and Maserati are better at moderate extravagance; and Ferrari and TVR are extra headturners, and will keep their value much better from now on.

 

Where to begin...

I would prefer the 8 series over the Mercedes, but that is down to the individual.

I don't consider the Aston and Ferrari as 'everyday' cars like the 850 would be, so not really a good comparison.  For the Maserati, again, preference thing.

Also, what makes the 8 series a good buy equally applies to the cars you posted, so it is a choice at the end of the day.  With the exception of the LC500, as my only car, I would choose the BMW over all the cars you have linked, so in terms of a good used car purchase, I still maintain the 8 series I posted is worth it considering what you get for your money.

Just my opinion, of course.

[DtoTheM]

13 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

True.  I was comparing it to buying a new one at the moment, which will cost you over £120k list price in a similar spec.

Surprisingly, there weren't too many option packs for the 8 series, although the ones it did have were very expensive!

Also, unless my dates are failing me, the one I posted still has its original warranty until August this year.

Where to begin...

I would prefer the 8 series over the Mercedes, but that is down to the individual.

I don't consider the Aston and Ferrari as 'everyday' cars like the 850 would be, so not really a good comparison.  For the Maserati, again, preference thing.

Also, what makes the 8 series a good buy equally applies to the cars you posted, so it is a choice at the end of the day.  With the exception of the LC500, as my only car, I would choose the BMW over all the cars you have linked, so in terms of a good used car purchase, I still maintain the 8 series I posted is worth it considering what you get for your money.

Just my opinion, of course.

Agreed, I've enjoyed my 6 series, the 8 is just newer, the 650 (and therefore the 850) I liken to an armchair rocketship, it's comfy, it's fast, it does everything you need, build quality is exceptional, never had an issues or expensive costs, the adjustable suspension is lovely it's all good. (I have no warranty either)

What does the Merc give you for 10k more? 

The Maserati is gorgeous, the gran cabrio I'd get but it's under featured it's a 20 year old car at this point plus servicing and quality seem somewhat debatable.

Do we need to talk about Ferrari ownership costs? You could buy it for free and it would still be more expensive.

I realise many of you are owners and everyone has a soft spot for their car and the LC500 is clearly a more interesting car than an 8 series but in terms of value the 8 is an absolute bargain.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, eightk said:

No offence to the BMW but it looks like every other BMW coupe.

Plus it’ll be out of warranty.

Plus nobody would have paid full price when they were new - these are the cars that were being discounted 20 grand and more in 2019/20. That translates to the used market where they will be impossible to trade in when you’ve got bored with it. Which you will. Very quickly 😀

I agree with first point - 8-series lacks originality, particularly inside I felt it does not go far enough to stand out from say 4-Series. Crystal gear selector is simply not enough to justify double the price from purely visual perspective (whereas LC500 feels almost custom crafted compared to RC). Now whenever that is really bad thing - I am not so sure, 8-Series looks striking in flesh, it is extremely fast, it handles extremely well and if you like BMW looks, then you will like BMW-8. So yes there is too little to separate it from lesser BMWs, but it isn't necessary bad thing. 

Now sure Lexus LC is more unusual car and if money were no object i.e. I were given both of them brand new for free I would choose LC500... but money is an object and I just can't see how LC500 is worth 20k more than newer BMW 8-Series (adjusted for mileage). It just isn't... and by the way whereas you can live with BMW 8 as single car in household, I would argue you can't with LC, to own LC one needs to have separate car for going to shopping etc. The particular issue is the boot, which is pretty much non-existent in LC. BMW 8 has massive boot, folding rear seats... I mean you can put bicycles there if you wanted to. In LC boot you can put a purse... and that is pretty much it. 

BMW has standard 3 years warranty + 12 Month purchase warranty if you get it from dealership. Then it has standard deal of what they call "insured warranty" or what Lexus used to call "extended warranty", in fact BMW one is much cheaper as well. LC extended warranty used to be £1995 or something crazy like that and BMW 8-series is £895. Now sure Lexus Relax is something else and really add a lot of value especially for cars like LC, that said BMW "insured warranty" is little bit more comprehensive, but it costs more money. All in all, let's just say BMW will cost you £2400 more over 3 years period because of warranty, but likewise in 4 years times Lexus will be out of the warranty altogether, whereas BMW will still be able to get the warranty for extra 3 years. And I am sure Lexus 100k+ extended warranty won't be cheap for LC. 

And finally I am not so sure about the last bit - all expensive coupes have tendency to sink like rocks in first few years, true for 8-Series, true for BMW i8, true for LC or MB S-Class Coupe ... or any of them. However, let's look into realistic ownership scenario - let's say you get LC500 for £49k, it already has 80k miles, you own it for 3 years, put another 20k miles on it, now it is out of warranty, 8 years old Lexus... how much money you expecting to get for it? I reckon £20k if you lucky. In the mean time you will enjoy very cheap ownership indeed. £180 road tax, £2000 for services and warranty is included. So you get back £17k after 3 years ownership. Let's take example for BMW - 2020, 50k miles for £45k, after same 3 years and 20k miles, I reckon you will still be able to sell it for £35k (that is what 5 years old 8-series are now going for), and yes your service will be more expensive and you will have to pay £895 for warranty to avoid horrors of BMW ownership, you will pay £600 extra on road tax... and in the end of ownership you get like £28k back. So Lexus ownership will work out at just over £10k a year and BMW ownerships will be half of that.

And I mean sure, you can say - "don't buy 80k miles LC", but if we looking at comparable mileage it will be £58k... so it will depreciate even more and cost of ownership may workout even worse. And for BMW 8-Series it is not necessary to get M850i, if you happy to go for 840i, those are selling as low as £35k and I reckon they will depreciate less. LC is special car, but I don't think it is "that special" to cost double in terms of ownership over newer BMW.

1 hour ago, DtoTheM said:

What does the Merc give you for 10k more? 

I would say - slightly more usable rear seats. To the point where I would call it proper 2+2... and not 2+0/5x2.

[DBIZO]

Thanks for your responses. I guess my main point was that the idea of owning that BMW 8 over any other on my short list is not attractive a proposition. I'd need to drive it, and all the others, but ultimately it comes down to emotional connection. I don't think I'd ever want to turn back whilst walking away from my car and see the 8. I see the point in owning the others, what they offer, but what I see in the 8 is that it's for BMW drivers. I just don't see the broader appeal, the proposition, that's present with the other options. 

[DtoTheM]

5 hours ago, DBIZO said:

Thanks for your responses. I guess my main point was that the idea of owning that BMW 8 over any other on my short list is not attractive a proposition. I'd need to drive it, and all the others, but ultimately it comes down to emotional connection. I don't think I'd ever want to turn back whilst walking away from my car and see the 8. I see the point in owning the others, what they offer, but what I see in the 8 is that it's for BMW drivers. I just don't see the broader appeal, the proposition, that's present with the other options. 

Yeah the BMW isn't hugely emotional but you know when you park it that it starts everyday, nothing breaks, it's solid, it's quality, it's technically amazing. It's very sensible and very German and it'll never be outlandish or overly stylish, it's just what it is.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, DBIZO said:

I just don't see the broader appeal, the proposition, that's present with the other options. 

I think we need to clarify the meaning of "broader appeal", because it seems quite clear that it is the one thing BMW does not lack. Now I get what you saying - you don't see "what appeals others" and it just sounds like you simply don't like BMW as a brand... I for example don't like Audi and whatever they put out I could never understand why people so obsessed with it. For example I would say exactly the same thing about Audi R8 - I just don't get what is the appeal of it, but I am sure many people see something in it.

Likewise I can see why someone would choose LC500 over M850i, as I said money being no object I would probably do the same. LC500 seems like more original design, has it's genuine benefits, but has genuine downsides as well. Practicality being one and price another big issue - I think the way they are positioned LC500 is direct competitor to M850i and when one could get 2 years never car, with half the miles for £10k less... LC500 just doesn't compare well.  

18 minutes ago, DtoTheM said:

Yeah the BMW isn't hugely emotional but you know when you park it that it starts everyday, nothing breaks, it's solid, it's quality, it's technically amazing. It's very sensible and very German and it'll never be outlandish or overly stylish, it's just what it is.

Just little advise to better adapt to the community - in Lexus world BMW is considered very unreliable and troublesome, which compared to Lexus they probably are (conditionally), but compared to rest of the cars they are decent. There little bit of partially justified snobbism between Lexus owners, because Lexus reliability and build quality is second to none, but in other hand it really only becomes important when cars are 10 years old and have 120k miles+. If you take brand new BMW and brand new Lexus, I am sure they both will give you 5 years of trouble free experience, yet Lexus could give you 10 extra years... whenever it is relevant or not for most buyers that is another question. So as I said - many on here would NOT consider BMW as the car that "starts every day, never breaks, is solid and quality made", there is some truth in that, but overall people tend to oversaturate the issue and apply conditions that are likely not even relevant for most buyers. Sure Lexus LC500 will go for 200k miles and 20 years just with minimal service and without any repair work outside of what scheduled in the service... very cool! But how many people on here are planning to spend next 20 years in LC? Probably none...

[DtoTheM]

Possibly true but out of a sample of 1 11 year old BMW and 3 5 year old lexus only the BMW has stiff firm bolsters with soft leather! The Lexus all have extremely soft crushed bolsters (with unworn leather) that to me is an issue. There's no doubt the design and comfort in the Lexus is as good but given all the hype around the quality and reliability I find it disappointing to see every car (although it seems not the base trim) have this issue. 

Does it out me off? Not really but it's a very obvious in your face issue which makes you wonder what else may go wrong. Who wants to pay 55k+ for a car with a worse kept interior than your current car that's 5 years older?! Budgeting to have the seats redone on a car that's already looking like it's in a bit of a bubble. For all their faults BMWs generally aren't in a bubble they fall fast and if your not bothered about all the gadgets they're attractive for what you get.

All the lexus dealerships I've pointed the interior out to have fobbed me off with age appropriate wear and tear and yet can't explain why my 5 year older PX has less issues. It's again not quite the impression that's given out about the brand.

[DBIZO]

Interesting discussion, thanks. I'm not greatly invested in car makes, nothing against BMW. Equally, not really into Mercedes or the others. All I said is that the impression I get is that the new BMW 8 appeals to people who probably were attracted to the marque to begin with. I'm just trying to boil down what a car has to offer, how it stands out if you like - even if it stands out by not standing out too much given what it is (eg. DB9). I probably should have said I get the E31 generation 8-series, it has that instant cool factor to it, captures an entire era in industrial design. 

Re reliability. It's a running joke among real car people (not like me), that as a BMW owner your mechanics will know you by your first name soon enough, and will give you a call out of a genuine concern if you don't come by for a while.

Which? data rates BMW 3/5 stars based on owner experience with reliability, compared to Lexus 5/5. Of course, it's heavily weighted to mainstream models. High-end BMWs might be better, no clue.

Yes, I chose Lexus for the combination of comfort and peace of mind. We drive across Europe several times a year, I don't want to, mentally cannot, deal with a breakdown, particularly not on a random European motorway hundreds of miles away from either endpoints of my journey. Very low tolerance for any issues, and I don't trust garages either.

I realise I haven't much to contribute...

[Shahpor]

Some interesting points made by all 👍

Personally, I like the oddball outsider cars but I do have a soft spot for the older BMW's out there.  As such, I think I would prefer the LC500 over the 850, all things being equal.. However, as Linas points out, things aren't equal and price is a strong factor in any car purchase.  So, my only point from my original post is that the used 850i's I have seen represent a considerable cost saving compared to when they were new and can be considered a 'bargain'.  Whether you think there are better cars out there for the same price is somewhat irrelevant since I am speak of the BMW in isolation.

Having said that, when it comes to BMW, I do consider the M850i as an unusual choice, especially when you consider that a similar price would get you an M3 or M5.  Based on nothing more than my opinion, I think that the majority of people would opt for one of the full fat M cars over the 850; by extension, this makes me reflect on the 850 as the odd-one-out and actually makes it more appealing to me!  Strange logic I'm sure but that is what my brain is telling me 🙂

[eightk]

I just don’t think the BMW is a competitor to the LC. I had a Maserati Grancabrio before the LC - its a very similar design in a lot of ways except build quality. The LC hands down beats the Italian in almost every way except perhaps noise. Astons, Jag F Type, 911 are all similar, maybe the Merc coupes, the SL etc - the BMW just isn’t. It’s a 4 series after too many pies.

I also have a Kia Stinger - it’s as quick as the LC, has just as much standard equipment, it’s rear wheel drive and has a 7 year warranty and a better back seat and bigger boot. And the seat bolster doesn’t go squishy after ten minutes. In every objective way except noise it either matches or beats the Lexus for about a third the price. But I wouldn’t call it a competitor to the LC, same as the BMW isn’t. Just my opinion.

[DtoTheM]

51 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Some interesting points made by all 👍

Personally, I like the oddball outsider cars but I do have a soft spot for the older BMW's out there.  As such, I think I would prefer the LC500 over the 850, all things being equal.. However, as Linas points out, things aren't equal and price is a strong factor in any car purchase.  So, my only point from my original post is that the used 850i's I have seen represent a considerable cost saving compared to when they were new and can be considered a 'bargain'.  Whether you think there are better cars out there for the same price is somewhat irrelevant since I am speak of the BMW in isolation.

Having said that, when it comes to BMW, I do consider the M850i as an unusual choice, especially when you consider that a similar price would get you an M3 or M5.  Based on nothing more than my opinion, I think that the majority of people would opt for one of the full fat M cars over the 850; by extension, this makes me reflect on the 850 as the odd-one-out and actually makes it more appealing to me!  Strange logic I'm sure but that is what my brain is telling me 🙂

Good points, the M version is an interesting point, when I got my 650i GC I did look at an M6 but at that point it was a zf8 Vs a zf6, adjustable suspension Vs sport, about 0.3sec acceleration difference. I couldn't see the point, the 650 had all the things I wanted smooth and fast, most people think it's a 640d. That's actually what puts me off about the German brands, the homogeneity, it's just dull. Much prefer how the Japanese brands create near bespoke models with their own personality.

 

Not sure Ive ever got a call from the mechanics, I dread to think how often a Jaguar Landrover customer feels, probably have their mechanics on WhatsApp.

[Linas.P]

30 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Some interesting points made by all 👍

Personally, I like the oddball outsider cars but I do have a soft spot for the older BMW's out there.  As such, I think I would prefer the LC500 over the 850, all things being equal.. However, as Linas points out, things aren't equal and price is a strong factor in any car purchase.  So, my only point from my original post is that the used 850i's I have seen represent a considerable cost saving compared to when they were new and can be considered a 'bargain'.  Whether you think there are better cars out there for the same price is somewhat irrelevant since I am speak of the BMW in isolation.

Having said that, when it comes to BMW, I do consider the M850i as an unusual choice, especially when you consider that a similar price would get you an M3 or M5.  Based on nothing more than my opinion, I think that the majority of people would opt for one of the full fat M cars over the 850; by extension, this makes me reflect on the 850 as the odd-one-out and actually makes it more appealing to me!  Strange logic I'm sure but that is what my brain is telling me 🙂

One thing that surely makes them exclusive is the original selling price. £82k for 840s and 100k for M850s means not many were sold (at least by BMW standards), not many sold means you are unlikely to find yourself in the place where have M3 and you park next to another two M3s... sure you may park next to other BMWs and indeed one may mistake M850 for M4 at a glance... but you know for sure people will take a second glance... because "ohhh wait that is odd M... it isn't M4?!". And by the way - since when being mistaken for M4 is offensive? So I would not call them "odd ball", but they are certainly quite rare and exclusive. And I am not saying Lexus LC is any less exclusive... is just again all comes down to many things. If we just want most exclusive "current gen" car for under £100k, then Lexus LC500h is probably the car to go for... but if we want all-rounder, easy to live with, comfortable to sit 4 and still have enough space for all the things you need for weekend... and still be exclusive I think BMW 8-series or S-Class Coupe actually are better choice and for less money.

And just to be clear I am not slagging of LC500, but everything has price and all the cars are compromise, it just happens that LC500 cost more yet you as well have to compromise on more things. That is nice way of saying it is currently overpriced for what it offers. Likewise I am not criticising people who bought LC500, both used and new. You know somebody bought that S-Class Coupe for £135k+ and now it's £50k (I am thankful for a charitable person who absorbed that ridiculous depreciation), somebody may have bought LC500 I was looking at in 2020 for £42k and now made their money back and made £10k profit on top. But honestly at the prices as they are now I just cannot see how LC500 represents "good value".

2 hours ago, DtoTheM said:

Possibly true but out of a sample of 1 11 year old BMW and 3 5 year old lexus only the BMW has stiff firm bolsters with soft leather! The Lexus all have extremely soft crushed bolsters (with unworn leather) that to me is an issue. There's no doubt the design and comfort in the Lexus is as good but given all the hype around the quality and reliability I find it disappointing to see every car (although it seems not the base trim) have this issue. 

Does it out me off? Not really but it's a very obvious in your face issue which makes you wonder what else may go wrong. Who wants to pay 55k+ for a car with a worse kept interior than your current car that's 5 years older?! Budgeting to have the seats redone on a car that's already looking like it's in a bit of a bubble. For all their faults BMWs generally aren't in a bubble they fall fast and if your not bothered about all the gadgets they're attractive for what you get.

All the lexus dealerships I've pointed the interior out to have fobbed me off with age appropriate wear and tear and yet can't explain why my 5 year older PX has less issues. It's again not quite the impression that's given out about the brand.

Interesting way to look at quality by the comparing the bolsters. I am not saying it is wrong, but to be honest I have never even considered to check how the bolsters look on the car, certainly not as priority... usually my worries starts from engine, gearbox, maybe suspension, exterior cosmetics (many cars are crashed and poorly repaired, even small bumps/scratches and poor repair job can cause issues in long-run) and only then I look into interior. On all expensive and serious issues Lexus fairs better - they are not known to have any suspension issues... Yet BMW springs have tendency to collapse, ball-joins requires frequent replacements etc. Engines and gearboxes... on Lexus side usually bulletproof.. BMWs - plastic parts in the engine, poor gaskets weeping oil everywhere (at least it's good rust prevention). I must be very clear again - up-to 5 years old it probably does not matter, but Lexus is usually solid buy (dependant on price) even when it has 80k, 100k or 120k miles, BMWs are not. So if we look at cars with 25k miles this just becomes irrelevant, but when we look at long term reliability at 100k+ Lexus is better.

Now talking about bolsters specifically I think it is compromise... Either you have hard bolsters which stays firm, but rubs the leather through, like was the case on my 40k miles BMW 328xi and 55k miles Lexus RC, or you have softer bolster which colipases, but the leather stays intact. The IS250 SE-L had softer bolsters and I indeed driver's right side bolster had collapsed on all of them. I as well had IS 250 F-Sport and that had firmer bolsters... I assume it would have worn trough, but I only had it up to 20k miles so never experienced any issues. If you ask me personally - I would rather have soft bolster which collapses, than hard bolster which wears the leather trough. Collapsed bolster is way cheaper and easier to fix (you probably can even do it yourself), and can be done in the way that it is impossible to tell and looks like new. Worn trough leather is much harder to fix, more expensive, requires specialist skill and not always works out perfect. 

Either way - I never associated car quality with how it's bolsters wears out, but I guess everyone to their own. Perhaps BMW is better in that respect. 

[Shahpor]

32 minutes ago, eightk said:

I just don’t think the BMW is a competitor to the LC. I had a Maserati Grancabrio before the LC - its a very similar design in a lot of ways except build quality. The LC hands down beats the Italian in almost every way except perhaps noise. Astons, Jag F Type, 911 are all similar, maybe the Merc coupes, the SL etc - the BMW just isn’t. It’s a 4 series after too many pies.

I also have a Kia Stinger - it’s as quick as the LC, has just as much standard equipment, it’s rear wheel drive and has a 7 year warranty and a better back seat and bigger boot. And the seat bolster doesn’t go squishy after ten minutes. In every objective way except noise it either matches or beats the Lexus for about a third the price. But I wouldn’t call it a competitor to the LC, same as the BMW isn’t. Just my opinion.

A fellow Stinger owner?  Small world 🙂

A competitor to the LC it most certainly is not!