e10 REDEX Petrol System Cleaner

[J Henderson]

I've been buying this occasionally for years and use it in my IS250. It frequently goes on sale in Tesco for £2 and that's when I'll pick up a bottle.

With my latest purchase however, I noticed that its now comes in a new style bottle with an extra claim on the label - that it protects against corrosion from E10 petrol.

 

 

Intrigued by this, I done a bit of googling and found a reply attributed to the manufacturer (Holts), when queried whether this can make E10 petrol "safe" for an older car.

"If you have a car that is not compatible with E10 fuel then our Petrol System Cleaner will make the petrol compatible by protecting against potential corrosion from the higher ethanol content."

There are other products on the market which do exactly this (make E10 safe for incompatible vehicles), but they are way more expensive than Redex. Especially when a bottle does 2 tankfuls.

Food for thought if you have a 2005-2007 car? 🤔

 

[Linas.P]

I think it is just "clever" marketing, but potentially. Ethanol itself could cause 2 types of issues - as solvent it can damage some seals which are not meant for the ethanol and secondly ethanol attracts water more than petrol and thus could corrode some parts which are not resistant to corrosion. For first issue I don't believe redex would help and that is more relevant issue in modern cars (that is eating at seals), but I would not be surprised it redex would contain some rust-inhibitors to protect from rusting. Now this second part is not really relevant for newer cars as it is very uncommon for petrol system to corrode, nor it is really relevant for E10 anyway, because it is only 10% ethanol and even when we say that ethanol attracts water it is just slightly more than petrol. BUT... all that said this later part allows redex to claim they "protect from ethanol", sure it does not make ethanol into petrol and it doesn't make it "safe" (if we believe that E10 is actually unsafe), but it does "something".

As for E10 - I will be running IS250 on E10 without any worries, I have driven thousands of miles in Europe on E85 and had no issues. The only thing I was told and I believed it, was that one should not leave ethanol in the tank for long time because it attracts water, so I always made sure that I only use E85 for journeys where I can burn entire tank in less than a week. However, after many years I now think this is somewhat unfounded worry - yes ethanol degrades quicker than petrol, but the difference is minor. If you leave petrol in the tank for 6 months it will be off and it won't burn as well as fresh petrol, perhaps same will apply to ethanol (E85) after 3 months, and after 6 month maybe you won't even be able to start the engine... which may turn out to be expensive thing to resolve. But by this time we are way detached from the problems of E10 and rather in extreme circumstance of abandoned cars which should not happen anyway. 

So my opinion is that issue with E10 is way overblown, we have already had E5, so if 5% ethanol didn't blow the seals I doubt 10% will do (just my opinion), likewise I have used E85 extensively without any issues... in fact most IS250 owners in Europe most likely uses E85 every day, because in many countries that is default option. Yes ethanol goes bad quicker, but not as quick that it would be an issue for average car driver at least once a week and refuelled at least once a month. Nor an issue which would require specific additives to prevent damage. As for ethanol itself - I don't like it, but not because it damages engine or something, rather because ethanol is not as efficient fuel and in my opinion should not cost the same as petrol... yet they simply replaced E5 like for like. And secondly - the science behind the environmental benefits is really divided, on one hand it is renewable, but on other hand it is probably even more polluting. SO not only it basically costs more, because you need more of it, but as well there is no obvious benefit and perhaps some downfalls in certain vehicles.  

[Mr Vlad]

I'm not a lover of redex products. Decades ago it was the sole reason the engine of one of my motorbikes failed. It produced a gum so I've never touched it since. Yes there are folk who swear by it. That's fair enough but that product above is a marketing ploy. There are genuine products out there yes costing 15 18 quid that counteract the effects of E10. Personally I wouldn't touch any of them. Just an injection cleaner with every fill is what I use and have done for over 30 years. 

[MrTrendizzle]

The problem i see with E10 fuel is that (iso-octane), widely used in petrol, has a chemical formula of C8H18 which reacts with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide and water. The lower the hydrogen levels the less chance it has to react with oxygen causing a higher than normal carbon monoxide which to get around this you would require pumping in much much more oxygen in to the engine forcing cars to run very very lean to counter the emissions issue.  

But this brings on to another problem. Due to the high temps and pressures within the combustion of an engine a by product is created called nitrogen oxides. This creates the "smog" people are so afraid of. It's typically formed by nitrogen and oxygen in the air reacting together under high temperatures as found in the exhaust system. Altho a catalytic convertor can capture most of this and burn it off much much more is released out the back of our cars which is counter productive to what the governments want to achieve.  

CO2 and water are used in all matter of plants and vegetive growth while NOX only gets absorbed by Oak, Beech and Hickery tree's.  

I would assume Redex contains either ammonia, alcohol or water which bonds the hydrogen molecules together allowing for a cleaner and hotter ignition of the fuel which will also result in the carbon build up being stripped and burnt from the internals of the engine.  You could get an Ammonia blood test kit online and dip it in the redex to confirm this is the case or not. Eitherway anything that bonds the hydrogen better than ethanol will work wonders.  

PS: If you already made the switch to E10 be sure to disconnect the Battery for 10 minutes to reset the ECU map allowing it to relearn the new fuel having to increase AF ratios correctly. My Lexus IS250 went from 23mpg on E10 up to 36mpg on the motorway and i average around 26mpg doing the school run. E5 is still much better pushing 30mpg on the school run.

[Mr Vlad]

I'm actually thinking of using both E5 and E10 on a 50/50 basis. Don't know why but it entered my head just today. The price difference I don't think is as big as it was but I've not looked to compare recently. Great post there MrT 👍

[Texas]

So Mr Trendizzle, Question for you, 

In your profile it states that your IS250 is a 2007, and as such, according to on-line E10 comparability checking is should Not use E10, Is this correct and are you actually using E10 in your Car regularly?

[MrTrendizzle]

44 minutes ago, Texas said:

So Mr Trendizzle, Question for you, 

In your profile it states that your IS250 is a 2007, and as such, according to on-line E10 comparability checking is should Not use E10, Is this correct and are you actually using E10 in your Car regularly?

That is correct i have a 2007 IS250 SE. (56 plate) I am indeed using E10. I checked online and the 4GRFSE engine which is what's in my car is (not) compatable (see attached picture)  

I was using E5 but as the price is £1.89.9 where I live I can't justify that price to often. Its still my go to fuel if the price is in the £1.60's tho.  

Edit: I'm an idiot. It says EXCLUDING!.... I've used roughly 3 tanks of E10 since it came out and the only difference I've noticed is a lack of power. I'll crack out the camera later and check the cylinders just to be safe. I would assume due to the increased carbon build up and higher nox levels it could cause a cat failure or injector issue. I will do some digging and double check that later on.

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, MrTrendizzle said:

That is correct i have a 2007 IS250 SE. (56 plate) I am indeed using E10. I checked online and the 4GRFSE engine which is what's in my car is compatable (see attached picture)  

I was using E5 but as the price is £1.89.9 where I live I can't justify that price to often. Its still my go to fuel if the price is in the £1.60's tho.

According to Lexus, it is only after 2007, that is starting with 07 or 57 plate. Before 2007 cars are not compatible. This is apparently due to some rubber seals which are not rated for ethanol, but it is speculation because if you compare the part number before and after 2007 there is no difference, so who knows. Lexus does not provide specifics of what and why isn't compatible. 

https://mag.lexus.co.uk/e10-petrol/

Now again, my personal opinion - I will use E10 without worry, despite my recent purchase is 2006/02 registered IS250 on 55 plate. I have driven my previous IS250s on not only E10, but even E85 without any issues (although namely two of them were 2010, 2012, but the one I had the longest and used E85 the most was 2006). As a matter of fact majority of Europe uses E85 and the only issues is fuel consumption, because E85 is not as energy dense. In IS250 in particular consumption is not that bad - 5-10% higher than pure petrol, but I assume the maximum power output is lower e.g. I was not able to reach same top speed on autobahn on E85 as I did with pure petrol. For normal driving it was not noticeable, but for top speed it was instantly noticeable, especially as I had one tank right after the other. So I reckon ECU detects different fuel and adjusts timing in a way that it uses just slightly more fuel, but makes slightly less power. To get same power or even more power on E85 one needs to have forced induction and bigger injectors - as E85 has higher octane (less likely to pre-detonate) many drag racers and tuners really like it, as provided fuel injection volume is not an issue they can run loads of boost and make huge power. But for daily driving this is not a benefit, only detriment. 

22 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Just an injection cleaner with every fill is what I use and have done for over 30 years. 

E10 is actually better in that aspect - ethanol could be used as injector cleaner, so not sure what would you use injector cleaner on top of already using E10?

[Mr Vlad]

Who knows Linas. I've been using the same additive in all my cars over the past number of decades. Why did I start using it? After I saw the internals of an engine which had done over 300k miles and it was clean, the additive was used from new though but that was enough for me. Also a friend of the time who used it in his diesel saw an improvement in the cars economy on all the cars he drove and he really was a high miler then.

I've not seen physical proof E10 is either good or bad for a car. Physical proof is what I follow, not words.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

Who knows Linas. I've been using the same additive in all my cars over the past number of decades. Why did I start using it? After I saw the internals of an engine which had done over 300k miles and it was clean, the additive was used from new though but that was enough for me. Also a friend of the time who used it in his diesel saw an improvement in the cars economy on all the cars he drove and he really was a high miler then.

I've not seen physical proof E10 is either good or bad for a car. Physical proof is what I follow, not words.

Yes but you talking about oil additives here, not fuel additives. I started using oil additives on IS250 as well, mainly to do with sticking valve lifters and noisy VVTI... not only it makes cold starts quieter and engine overall smoother it as well makes economic sense and it is somewhat proven to work, but oil has completely different purpose in car than petrol. On top of that £15 once a year on oil additive makes economical sense and results are noticeable, whereas £6-15 on top of every tank of petrol and no noticeable results is much harder to justify... I would not be surprised if 90% of the stuff is "snake oil". 

[Mr Vlad]

No Linas I'm on about fuel additive. As for engine oil additive there's only one I use and again on every car I've had in the last 30+ years. ZX1 and its a one time only addition. As for the fuel additive Millers Oils Petrol Power Eco Max is dosed 50ml per 50l of fuel. So basically 1 dose per full tank. So 10 doses forc20 tank fulls. I pay about £12 so that makes it £1.20 extra per tank full.

Elsewhere on here I've mentioned ZX1, example: a neighbour with an old 3.0l S type jag. Very rattly on start up. After ZX1 quiet as a mouse.

[MrTrendizzle]

8 hours ago, Linas.P said:

According to Lexus, it is only after 2007, that is starting with 07 or 57 plate. Before 2007 cars are not compatible. This is apparently due to some rubber seals which are not rated for ethanol, but it is speculation because if you compare the part number before and after 2007 there is no difference, so who knows. Lexus does not provide specifics of what and why isn't compatible. 

https://mag.lexus.co.uk/e10-petrol/

 

Sorry i was out in town with the wife today and replied on my phone. So sorry for the late reply.
Once i had posted my comment i realised my mistake and it actually said "Except" which surprised me a little and gave me a little fright. I did make an edit admitting to my mistake.

I've used roughly 3 full tanks of E10 without any issues so far. I have used E5 between those tanks so maybe i've actually done my car a little favour my stripping away some of the carbon build up at the risk of fuel filter and possible rubber seals/gaskets which to be fair most if not all seals are made of the same material and like you pointed out the two engines Lexus show as E10 good/bad use the exact same part but claim one engine is not suitable for E10 fuels.  

I've done a little testing with my car and have ran both E5 and E10. E10 gives much lower MPG than E5 and slightly less power it does seem. But the moment i reset my ECU the car seemed to adjust it's fuel map to the E10 and boosted the MPG accordingly. Still not as good as E5 but damn near close.  

I did pop my little snake cam in the sparkplug hole and the cylinder and piston seem pretty clean, no exterior wear on the gasket so it hasn't eaten it's way through the rubber just yet and i popped the fuel pump out from under the seats and all the rubber on that thing looked pretty damn good and felt almost like new so no damage from the E10 to that either.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Mr Vlad said:

No Linas I'm on about fuel additive. As for engine oil additive there's only one I use and again on every car I've had in the last 30+ years. ZX1 and its a one time only addition. As for the fuel additive Millers Oils Petrol Power Eco Max is dosed 50ml per 50l of fuel. So basically 1 dose per full tank. So 10 doses forc20 tank fulls. I pay about £12 so that makes it £1.20 extra per tank full.

Elsewhere on here I've mentioned ZX1, example: a neighbour with an old 3.0l S type jag. Very rattly on start up. After ZX1 quiet as a mouse.

The effect of oil additives is pretty clear, but what makes you believe fuel additive does anything? 

[Mr Vlad]

The fuel additive I use Linas is used because of the actual experience of a trusted friend who at the time drove well over 300k miles a year and with that additive the fuel consumption was bettered by a few mpg. 3mpg might not sound  much but over a year it's quite a mighty sum. 

[Malc]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:44 PM, MrTrendizzle said:

Oak, Beech and Hickery tree's.  

a fresh view on a car manufacturer Marketing doing good by the planet .... for every new car sold a Beech, Oak,  Hickory tree will be planted .. would it catch on and promote sales I wonder  ..........  and ..........

....... price difference here twixt E10 and ( what I use in my '95 Ls400 )  E5 is       8 pence a litre ......  and the E5 seems to give a very slight, almost imperceptible, BUT it is there, uplift in the car's response to my driving .....  what the economy mpg figures are like I really don't know and it would be too complex for me to worry about ....  my analytical mind gave up that sort of effort way back I'm afraid  BUT I'm thinking I might just do the fresh marketing approach on my own business website to offer to plant a tree for every ( what I sell ) sold !

Malc