Lexus RZ revealed

[Barry14UK]

Looks are always going to be "in the eye of the beholder".  I would say that anybody who knows a little about cars if asked what car this was, they would identify this as being a Lexus.  It does make a statement and is very different in looks to it's all electric competitors.  Generally I quite like the looks although there are aspects I am not keen on.

I like the inside although like leather.  How the remote steering will work on our pot holed roads will be interesting to ascertain.

Battery range is disappointing for what should be cutting edge.  I understand Toyota are fairly well advanced on solid state batteries and hoped these might be incorporated.  When these are introduced it will be a substantial upgrade and could hit the used market.

This has to be priced significantly higher than the Bz4 and brand loyalty aside, non committed to marque motorists may well be tempted to go elsewhere. The KiaEV6 and Hyundai Ioniq 5  oushine it in some areas and have a head start.

Actual reviews by impartial testers will be interesting and provide much more information and impressions than all the hype found when new models are revealed by manufacturers. 

[ganzoom]

10 hours ago, rayaans said:

Fair enough if you just want tech but as a car it's nowhere near a proper contender 

 

Technology though is the driver of the world we live in today. Its not an accident the world's wealthiest companies are all tech firms.

On a similar note in my day jobs is more and more clear we need more technologies and integration in the NHS if we are going to get close to delivering health care needs for the future.

Just doing what's been done before, which Lexus/Toyota is very good at simply doesn't cut it any more. If Toyota/Lexus wants to compete and stay relevant they need to innovate and do it as a much faster pace.

EVs are already 'done', they will and are becoming mainstream. The next bit of innovation is now been developed. The proposal by the DfT shows what's coming next, the infotainment system in Teslas have been able to play iPlayer since 2017, and autonomy software in development since 2016.......Toyota/Lexus are so far behind the curve interms of technological innovation its like comparing a Cambrige Utd to Liverpool, or Waterstones to amazon. Yes our Lexus is better built than our Tesal, but interms of relevance, our Lexus is a dead end. 

Check out which brands car is been featured on an official government website......Tesla spends £0 on advertising but their ability to influence is quite staggering.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-moves-closer-to-a-self-driving-revolution

[talaipwros]

Although the market proved me wrong again and again, I see no reason why anyone should by a Tesla due to the build quality issues and the fact that everything has to pass through this central tablet.

 

for the same'ish price Tesla Y or Lexus RZ, there is simply no comparison. Lexus all the way.

 

( as far as I am concerned , i4 is a much better car than Model 3 too, when BMW capacity increases, there will be no reason to buy a Tesla anymore- other than the charging network that is)

[rayaans]

17 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

Although the market proved me wrong again and again, I see no reason why anyone should by a Tesla due to the build quality issues and the fact that everything has to pass thtough this central tablet.

 

for the same'ish price Tesla Y or Lexus RZ, there is simply no comparison. Lexus all the way.

 

( as far as I am concerned , i4 is a much better car than Model 3 too, when BMW capacity increases, there will be no reason to buy a Tesla anymore- other than the charging network that is)

The issue is that a lot of these buyers tend to buy them and complain about the build quality on YouTube and various forums. 

Yet if you slate a Tesla its supposedly the best vehicle known to man. 

The Tesla supercharging network is going to be open to any EV in the future which reduces Teslas main attraction. 

Yes Tesla may have done it first but I reckon once the Germans/Japanese start properly getting into it closer to 2030 there'll be too much competition.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Yes Tesla may have done it first but I reckon once the Germans/Japanese start properly getting into it closer to 2030 there'll be too much competition.

I agree that Tesla is horrible when you get into it and build quality is just not acceptable for "premium" brand, poor reliability and customer service. However, for Lexus or any other automaker to really get up-to speed they need to beat Tesla either on technology (like range, charging times) or price and for time being they are doing neither. I have predicted in the past that when other automakers going to start making proper EVs Tesla will be dead in the water with their sub-par quality, but it has not happened because it seems that so far all other makers are happy to lose market share for some short term profits. Like take for example i4 vs Model 3 - seems like no brainer for me, because BMW is an actual car and Model 3 is stupid toy, but then when one looks to price i4 is prices closer to Model S than it is to Model 3, yet it is not even as fast, nor has as good range.

Basically, unless established automakers going to start some loss leaders (which would be sensible why they still have reserves) to get back market share in this segment, they won't catch Tesla.

[rayaans]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I agree that Tesla is horrible when you get into it and build quality is just not acceptable for "premium" brand, poor reliability and customer service. However, for Lexus or any other automaker to really get up-to speed they need to beat Tesla either on technology (like range, charging times) or price and for time being they are doing neither. I have predicted in the past that when other automakers going to start making proper EVs Tesla will be dead in the water with their sub-par quality, but it has not happened because it seems that so far all other makers are happy to lose market share for some short term profits. Like take for example i4 vs Model 3 - seems like no brainer for me, because BMW is an actual car and Model 3 is stupid toy, but then when one looks to price i4 is prices closer to Model S than it is to Model 3, yet it is not even as fast, nor has as good range.

Basically, unless established automakers going to start some loss leaders (which would be sensible why they still have reserves) to get back market share in this segment, they won't catch Tesla.

You fail to grasp the point that nobody buys a vehicle based on simple numbers.

An I4 has an interior quality better than a model X which costs nearly twice the price. It's massively more refined than a model 3 and that's where the money goes.

You mention Tesla Model S as a price comparison but that car costs almost £74k starting

[Linas.P]

Just now, rayaans said:

You fail to grasp the point that nobody buys a vehicle based on simple numbers.

We will have to agree to disagree on this - a lot of people buy cars based on numbers alone. That is why we had period of diesels, just based on stupid and unachievable headline MPG figures. Besides, Tesla have areas which are actually better, not just number - like range acceleration and charging... and it is actually cheaper. 

[rayaans]

17 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

We will have to agree to disagree on this - a lot of people buy cars based on numbers alone. That is why we had period of diesels, just based on stupid and unachievable headline MPG figures. Besides, Tesla have areas which are actually better, not just number - like range acceleration and charging... and it is actually cheaper. 

Once again not true. 

Maybe when comparing petrol to diesel in one vehicle

Most buyers already know which car they like and what they want before looking at drivetrains

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Once again not true. 

Maybe when comparing petrol to diesel in one vehicle

Most buyers already know which car they like and what they want before looking at drivetrains

The problem is that many people already knows which car they like and that is Tesla... and now other makes have to make people switch. 

[Spock66]

Rightly or wrongly Tesla has become the 'Hoover' of electric vehicles and this has made Elon Musk the richest man in the world.

I think electric vehicles have their place, ideal for short range urban driving; but the rush towards full electrification to save the planet is a gross over simplification.

[talaipwros]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

, but then when one looks to price i4 is prices closer to Model S than it is to Model 3, yet it is not even as fast, nor has as good range.

 

Not really, i4 M50i is faster  than Tesla model3 Performance and costs the same.

 

The difference in quality is abysmal

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

Not really, i4 M50i is faster  than Tesla model3 Performance and costs the same.

 

The difference in quality is abysmal

How does that work? i4 M50 3.8s, Tesla Model 3 Performance 3.1s and BMW is still £12000 more expensive?! Yes Tesla "quality" is like cheap Chinese toy, but many people seems to be able to look past it.

 

[rayaans]

43 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

How does that work? i4 M50 3.8s, Tesla Model 3 Performance 3.1s and BMW is still £12000 more expensive?! Yes Tesla "quality" is like cheap Chinese toy, but many people seems to be able to look past it.

 

Linas you need to get your facts correct. You're spewing out figures from mid air.

A Tesla model 3 performance costs £60k and an I4 M50 is £63k

The difference between a 3.1s car to 60mph and a 3.9s car to 62mph is very small in the real world. 

Like I said nobody buys a car based on numbers alone. Most buyers already know what they want. 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Linas you need to get your facts correct. You're spewing out figures from mid air.

A Tesla model 3 performance costs £60k and an I4 M50 is £63k

The difference between a 3.1s car to 60mph and a 3.9s car to 62mph is very small in the real world. 

Like I said nobody buys a car based on numbers alone. Most buyers already know what they want. 

Somehow according to BMW it starts at £72,995 and according to Tesla the Model 3 Performance £61,063 ?!

[rayaans]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Somehow according to BMW it starts at £72,995 and according to Tesla the Model 3 Performance £61,063 ?!

It's definitely £63k

[talaipwros]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

How does that work? i4 M50 3.8s, Tesla Model 3 Performance 3.1s and BMW is still £12000 more expensive?! Yes Tesla "quality" is like cheap Chinese toy, but many people seems to be able to look past it.

 

they both have 0-60 at 3.6 ( the Tesla reported  sprint is ...after rolling)

 

 

price wise, Tesla deducts from advertised price...savings from using an EV.  When they ask you to pay, it is 61K for Tesla and 63K for BMW

 

so, for me, there is no comparison

[talaipwros]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Somehow according to BMW it starts at £72,995 and according to Tesla the Model 3 Performance £61,063 ?!

Nope, this is after several spec packages on top.

[Escanor]

I had big hopes for the RZ. Given the waiting time of NX I thought i would move to RZ and be a green champion in my local grocery runs, rolling my eyes in despair and throwing my arms in the air with exaggerated desperation as local shoppers get out of their oil drinking behemoths.

But as I saw the range my brain started to work, quite slow to be sure and through the very foggy COVID induced haze it has been.

In a few years as BEV become more mainstream the infrastructure is hardly going to cope up. I know most people say nobody is going to drive 200 miles at a stretch, but if there is limited charging options in the road or if it's clogged or not working then every single mile becomes vital. Realistically charging at your home and hopefully at your destination might be the reasonable assumption here. I can't see myself pushing another car out of the port or stealing a charger from another car happening.

So on that happy thoughts, I closed my RZ plans, steadied my mind as I cross the path of the EV crowd and waiting anxiously for my NX, which hopefully will be here before the second coming.

[ganzoom]

10 hours ago, rayaans said:

.Yes Tesla may have done it first but I reckon once the Germans/Japanese start properly getting into it closer to 2030 there'll be too much competition.

The main USP between Tesla and everyone else is as you have already mentioned technology. Tesla is a technology/software company that happens to make cars, where as traditional car manufacturers are fitting technology/software into their cars.

Our 4.5 year old Tesla pretty much did the 140 miles on the M1/M4/M6 without only a handful of interventions from me this evening. The performance of the Autopilot software right now is noticeably better than 18 months ago, in another 18 months the software will be better again.

When was the last time Lexus improved the software in your car? Most car manufacturers cannot/woudlnt offer software support development as soon as it leaves the showroom where as Tesla are supporting/pushing features to cars made half a decade ago.

The 'firmware' on Tesla cars have been designed from the ground up for software improvements and new feature deployment. 

 

[dutchie01]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:42 PM, rayaans said:

You can't really compare the model y to the RZ. 

The RZ is in a class above and the quality of Tesla in general is extremely poor especially refinement. They're riddled with issues. 

Fair enough if you just want tech but as a car it's nowhere near a proper contender 

 

Tesla is outselling Lexus in the UK 3 to 1. So in that aspect you can turn it around by saying Lexus is nowhere near a proper contender to Tesla.

I agree with cabin quality etc but it seems it doesnt really matter anymore. Yes, to us enthusiasts that can admire the engineering behind an IS 250 glovebox or the 100% perfect stitching of the leather. Tesla customers dont care. They buy their car for other reasons. Range, software, power, handling, chargernetwork.

So far i cannot see Lexus making the slightest dent in the Tesla sales as the above items are just not there. The new Lexus EV will remain a niche product.

 

 

 

 

 

[rayaans]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Tesla is outselling Lexus in the UK 3 to 1. So in that aspect you can turn it around by saying Lexus is nowhere near a proper contender to Tesla.

I agree with cabin quality etc but it seems it doesnt really matter anymore. Yes, to us enthusiasts that can admire the engineering behind an IS 250 glovebox or the 100% perfect stitching of the leather. Tesla customers dont care. They buy their car for other reasons. Range, software, power, handling, chargernetwork.

So far i cannot see Lexus making the slightest dent in the Tesla sales as the above items are just not there. The new Lexus EV will remain a niche product.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you dont seem to understand that Lexus aren't after outright sales anyway and one of the core aspects of Lexus as a brand is exclusivity. Its almost like saying Ford is selling Lexus 10 to 1.

Tesla are becoming close to BMW/Merc/Audi - mass market appliances and I see more Model 3s than BMW 3 series nowadays. Now thats saying something. From a sales perspective thats all well and good but sales doesnt necessarily mean its a premium product.

[dutchie01]

so if a tesla isnt premium because of the interior/buildquality is a lexus with an average drivetrain then premium?

 

[Spacewagon52]

The debate continues! 

Tesla have gained from the BIK company car market. If, and only IF, you were spending your own money on a three-year-old car - would you buy a Tesla?

[rayaans]

13 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

so if a tesla isnt premium because of the interior/buildquality is a lexus with an average drivetrain then premium?

 

Certainly. 

Premium is all about the feel of the vehicle. The materials used, the quality of the damping, the NVH, the alignment of the doors etc. Tesla falls heavily behind on these main areas of what a premium vehicle should be. 

Last time I checked Mercedes have been using some renault engines in their vehicles, Audi uses the same engines as a Skoda or VW. 

Like I said, the Audi Q4 uses a much inferior powertrain to the RZ for suspected similiar cost. Is that not a premium vehicle? Sales numbers are one thing, but dont confuse that with being premium, otherwise the Ford Fiesta would be the most premium of them all for a long time.

Take the IS300h - do you drive around thinking "oh heck, this is an inferior powertrain compared to the BMW 330e, Mercedes C300e"? Did you buy it thinking that the BMW 320d in the real world is faster, probably more economical and has better steering?

Because I certainly dont get into my RX and think it needs to have a twin turbocharged V6 plug in hybrid whilst im driving around.

[Spock66]

9 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Premium is all about the feel of the vehicle. The materials used, the quality of the damping, the NVH, the alignment of the doors etc.

And also the dealer experience and after sales service which Lexus scores highly on.