Yet another automatic oil change question - BG flushing and Total oil products?

[Mr Vlad]

Yes there will always be 2 or 3 ways to change the gearbox oil either partially or fully and somewhere in between. 

Now let's think about an engine oil change. If its done at say 3-5k miles in a year do you change all of it or just part of it?

If that car has say 60k miles do you swap all or part of the engine oil?

If that car has 150k miles do you swap part or all of the oil?

Now that car with 60k miles. Would you use a flush agent?

Now that car with 150k miles. Would you use a flushing agent?

Now a car which does 15k miles a year and has 150k miles on it. How often would you change the oil? Would you change all or part of it? Would you use a flushing agent?

A multi cylinder car engine has many many moving parts, some big some small. Particles are created due to wear and tear and those particles become cruddy. No one in their right mind only drops 2 or 3 litres of engine oil and replaces it with the same.

Some engine parts where oil goes are as small as areas within an auto gearbox and the solenoids valves etc.

Like I said before technology is here now to enable us to do a full replenishment of gearbox oil by pumping new oil in whilst the old oil is pumped out.

This post of mine is not directed to anyone directly. Its for everyone to read and digest.

Q. Why do we change our engine oil?

For the same reason why don't we therefore change our gearbox oil?

[Spock66]

10 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Q. Why do we change our engine oil?

For the same reason why don't we therefore change our gearbox oil?

Engine oil will get contaminated with combustion products, there is no combustion in the gearbox, hence it has a much longer life.

[Linas.P]

I see your point, but ATF and engine oil are not comparable. Gearbox is sealed part, no combustion happens there and ATF is hydraulic fluid, not only lubricant. Engine is not sealed part, combustion happens in the engine, there is always some blow by and oil in the engine is mostly just lubricant (apart of VVTi system). So the way it works and what it does is very different and not really comparable.

There should not be any "sludge" in gearbox, like it is in the engine (that is unless ATF was overheated) and all the small metal shavings should be either stuck to the magnet at the bottom or in the filter. Again - if transmission was used properly, not raced etc. there really should be no reason to flush it. And I have seen my old IS250 transmission innards at near 200k miles - it was sparkling clean, magnets were clean, so I really can't see why flushing would be needed. 

Likewise I guess we both agree that oil/fluid life is different in the engine and gearbox. If we say that engine oil is ideally replaced every 5k miles and gearbox fluid every 50k miles (I would argue even a 100k), then by same measure we can agree that engine does not need flushing until 100-150k... therefore gearbox shouldn't really need it until it has done million miles?!

Finally, again this advise cannot be universal, because each car may have been used differently and have different issues. That is why my first question was - do you have issues with it? That is the main point - why take most aggressive approach in case where it is just preventative measure and gearbox works fine? In other hand if OP said - yes I have solenoid performance problem, I have tried "top-up", I have tried dropping pan, replacing filter and replaced 4L of ATF and it is still there, I would say - yeah sure, maybe as a last resort try flushing it. Appropriate measures to the problem one has... 

[Mr Vlad]

Very good points. Personally I am going to get my cars gearbox oil replenished. I drive my car both gently and harshly. I am noticing notchy gear changes when cold and it makes me wonder if the one journey I did all in 4th gear and being at redline for a good few minutes did a little damage via over heating. Probably not but I bet I didn't do the oil any good. This one journey was done after the cars service where they changed a couple of litre of gearbox oil at my insistence. My car is a keeper, unless I come into a good amount of money then it's a RCF, so I want to prolong the life of my car for at least another 10 or even 15 years.

There are members who are on the fence whether to replenish their gearbox oil or not. Basically if you're going to keep your car for years and I mean at least 6 years then do indeed get it done. Not with a flush agent or cleaner chemicals but new oil for old.

If you're only going to keep your car a year or three then just do a pan drop and filter change for piece of mind.

Linas. What you saw in your 200k milers gearbox is great news to share and should help members decide on an oil top up or replenish. 

Bug. Like I said before. Go for a replenish without a chemical cleaner unless your car has an issue warranting a cleaner. 

[Linas.P]

10 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

unless I come into a good amount of money then it's a RCF

Damn - so many takers for RC-F, it will be fierce competition few years later... I am in the same boat. 

[Alfalfa]

16 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Fair enough, I just wonder what is the benefit of "flushing" it with machine, over simply removing pan, changing the filter and refilling? I guess less mess? But I would be less confident about having correct amount of fluid afterwards. 

The diffirence is that if you want to replace all oil you have to do the empty pan method maybe 8-10 times and still you are not sure that all the old oil is out of the gearbox, for me the decission was easy, but yes there are more than one road to Rome.

[Alfalfa]

4 minutes ago, Alfalfa said:

The diffirence is that if you want to replace all oil you have to do the empty pan method maybe 8-10 times and still you are not sure that all the old oil is out of the gearbox, for me the decission was easy, but yes there are more than one road to Rome.

The method to level the oil is the same, but you only do it one time in a Flushing.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, Alfalfa said:

The diffirence is that if you want to replace all oil you have to do the empty pan method maybe 8-10 times and still you are not sure that all the old oil is out of the gearbox, for me the decission was easy, but yes there are more than one road to Rome.

You are right - you would need to change the fluid few times to achieve decent results, I would say 2-3 would be ideal at which point you will probably have 85%+ of fresh fluid and anything after that would be diminishing returns. Even after 8-10 times there is no guarantee that 100% of fluid is fresh, because effectively you just continuously diluting existing fluid, not to mention it be not economically feasible to do. 8-10 times fluid replacement is the same cost as new gearbox... so why do it? 

That said using flush machine to replenish fluid probably achieves same as 2-3 fluid changes from pan, but again that is compromise - on the good side you achieve same level of change in single operation, on other hand it is way more aggressive method of doing it, which could lift dirt and push it into the gearbox, the filter does not get changed and it is questionable whenever correct ATF is used for this process or is it just generic ATF. So basically there are cons and pros with this approach. 

[Alfalfa]

15 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You are right - you would need to change the fluid few times to achieve decent results, I would say 2-3 would be ideal at which point you will probably have 85%+ of fresh fluid and anything after that would be diminishing returns. Even after 8-10 times there is no guarantee that 100% of fluid is fresh, because effectively you just continuously diluting existing fluid, not to mention it be not economically feasible to do. 8-10 times fluid replacement is the same cost as new gearbox... so why do it? 

That said using flush machine to replenish fluid probably achieves same as 2-3 fluid changes from pan, but again that is compromise - on the good side you achieve same level of change in single operation, on other hand it is way more aggressive method of doing it, which could lift dirt and push it into the gearbox, the filter does not get changed and it is questionable whenever correct ATF is used for this process or is it just generic ATF. So basically there are cons and pros with this approach. 

I changed the filter also. I dont know the power of the Flushing stream compered to the stream in the gearbox but i did the Flushing and its to late to regret.

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Alfalfa said:

I changed the filter also.

Which is what I would do, but it was not clear from your post. So basically you took the pan off, drained the fluid, replaced the filter and only then used flushing machine? or you changed the filter after flushing? I mean that is perhaps good compromise although I can see few caveats with both approaches.

If you changed the filter before flushing, then you likely made it dirty again during the flushing and that kind of requires it to be replaced again. Whereas if you did it after, then it basically becomes two separate operation - flush first, then remove pan change filter and refill. I guess best of both worlds would be to remove pan before the flushing, drain as much dirty fluid as possible and clean the pan, but leave the old filter, flush it, then remove pan, drain again, replace filter and refill/check level. In such case one would get cleanest fluid, least risk of contamination, clean filter and guaranteed correct amount of correct fluid. 

[Alfalfa]

40 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Which is what I would do, but it was not clear from your post. So basically you took the pan off, drained the fluid, replaced the filter and only then used flushing machine? or you changed the filter after flushing? I mean that is perhaps good compromise although I can see few caveats with both approaches.

If you changed the filter before flushing, then you likely made it dirty again during the flushing and that kind of requires it to be replaced again. Whereas if you did it after, then it basically becomes two separate operation - flush first, then remove pan change filter and refill. I guess best of both worlds would be to remove pan before the flushing, drain as much dirty fluid as possible and clean the pan, but leave the old filter, flush it, then remove pan, drain again, replace filter and refill/check level. In such case one would get cleanest fluid, least risk of contamination, clean filter and guaranteed correct amount of correct fluid. 

After Flushing.

[ColinBarber]

19 hours ago, Linas.P said:

There should not be any "sludge" in gearbox, like it is in the engine (that is unless ATF was overheated) and all the small metal shavings should be either stuck to the magnet at the bottom or in the filter. Again - if transmission was used properly, not raced etc. there really should be no reason to flush it. And I have seen my old IS250 transmission innards at near 200k miles - it was sparkling clean, magnets were clean, so I really can't see why flushing would be needed. 

I think part of the problem is calling the procedure a transmission 'flush' - it isn't.

An engine flush is adding chemicals to the engine oil to dissolve varnish and sludge for a few minutes before draining out all the old oil and replacing.

A transmission flush typically is just replacing all the old ATF with fresh ATF of the same type - there are no chemical additives, but you need a external machine to force the fluid through the transmission because a drain/refill only replaced 50% of the fluid as the rest stays within the torque converter - you need to overcome gravity. It also pushes the fluid in the normal direction - not in reverse as you do with a heating system 'flush'.

You wouldn't half drain your engine oil and refill. If you think your ATF is of poor quality you shouldn't half drain that.

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

I think part of the problem is calling the procedure a transmission 'flush' - it isn't.

An engine flush is adding chemicals to the engine oil to dissolve varnish and sludge for a few minutes before draining out all the old oil and replacing.

A transmission flush typically is just replacing all the old ATF with fresh ATF of the same type - there are no chemical additives, but you need a external machine to force the fluid through the transmission because a drain/refill only replaced 50% of the fluid as the rest stays within the torque converter - you need to overcome gravity. It also pushes the fluid in the normal direction - not in reverse as you do with a heating system 'flush'.

You wouldn't half drain your engine oil and refill. If you think your ATF is of poor quality you shouldn't half drain that.

Yeas that is what I said above - people calling it "flushing", but it isn't if it doesn't use chemicals. I continue to call it "flush" because it uses same machine which could do flushing with chemicals.

And indeed if ATF is very bad then it all needs to be replaced, the only problem that there is no way to drain it all like in engine. It is wasteful process and the only option is diluting it whilst engine is running and transmission is in the gear until old ATF from torque converter cycles and eventually get's replaced.

The issue I have with using machine to "flush" it is for exactly the reason you mentioned - it does it in the same way as the fluid flows normally, meaning it pick-up fluid from pan, via filter, via torque converter and then back into gearbox and lastly control body. Meaning that if you really have "very bad ATF" and some dirt in transmission (most likely accumulated in the pan), then this all dirt has to go trough entire transmission before it get's flushed out. I mean yes sure - the very first thing after pan is the filter, so it will go trough filter before going trough transmission... however that is really taking a gamble on filter still being in good shape.

In either case - I see "flushing" machine (even without chemicals) as very risky to use before cleaning what was on the bottom of the pan. If the pan is cleaned and it is only used to get old ATF from torque converter, then yes that is fine. 

[H3XME]

Just to put my 5p here, if you're thinking about automatic transmission fluid change, I'd recommend garages with LIQUI MOLY Gear Tronic. It's generally specialist garages or high end garages that offer this service, but it's well worth the money and you know it's done properly. Companies such as Autotek Clevedon Ltd in Bristol offer this.. They are VW specialists, but more importantly they are automatic gearbox specialists and have the tools to do a good job.. https://www.facebook.com/Autotek-Clevedon-LTD-719311011482020/

 

[Mr Vlad]

Mmmmmm that looks so much like the cat 501s machine. Better video tho than the couple I've seen of the 501s in action. 

[Alfalfa]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:55 PM, Linas.P said:

I see your point, but ATF and engine oil are not comparable. Gearbox is sealed part, no combustion happens there and ATF is hydraulic fluid, not only lubricant. Engine is not sealed part, combustion happens in the engine, there is always some blow by and oil in the engine is mostly just lubricant (apart of VVTi system). So the way it works and what it does is very different and not really comparable.

There should not be any "sludge" in gearbox, like it is in the engine (that is unless ATF was overheated) and all the small metal shavings should be either stuck to the magnet at the bottom or in the filter. Again - if transmission was used properly, not raced etc. there really should be no reason to flush it. And I have seen my old IS250 transmission innards at near 200k miles - it was sparkling clean, magnets were clean, so I really can't see why flushing would be needed. 

Likewise I guess we both agree that oil/fluid life is different in the engine and gearbox. If we say that engine oil is ideally replaced every 5k miles and gearbox fluid every 50k miles (I would argue even a 100k), then by same measure we can agree that engine does not need flushing until 100-150k... therefore gearbox shouldn't really need it until it has done million miles?!

Finally, again this advise cannot be universal, because each car may have been used differently and have different issues. That is why my first question was - do you have issues with it? That is the main point - why take most aggressive approach in case where it is just preventative measure and gearbox works fine? In other hand if OP said - yes I have solenoid performance problem, I have tried "top-up", I have tried dropping pan, replacing filter and replaced 4L of ATF and it is still there, I would say - yeah sure, maybe as a last resort try flushing it. Appropriate measures to the problem one has... 

 

[Alfalfa]

I did the Flush with no gearbox problem, the only reason was that the oil had been used 250000km, but after the change the gearbox is  more responsive in gearing up and down, if this is important i dont know, but it tells me that the gearbox change behavior over time caused by older and not so effective oil, if its dangerous or not to not change the oil is not easy to tell but i am happy with the result.

[Alfalfa]

I dont know how my gearbox looks inside, the advice to skip the detergent came from Lexus repair shop boss,  so i followed his advice , my thinking is that after 250000km and 15 years the oil probably dont have the same quality as a new oil.

If you look at the HomePage of the Is250 gearbox manufacturer they recomend Flushing after 50000Km on this gearbox.

But i wil be the first to admit that the Sealed for life statement from Lexus is a strange statement when Nissin say 50000km.

[Bugster_MR2]

OK, so my first visit to the workshop did not go as planned. It turned out they did not have the necessary adapter for the BG Machine. They will order the adapter from BG, and set up a new appointment. 

[Mr Vlad]

Blimey. I'd have thought they'd have looked at your car before now to see what's what.

[Alfalfa]

11 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

OK, so my first visit to the workshop did not go as planned. It turned out they did not have the necessary adapter for the BG Machine. They will order the adapter from BG, and set up a new appointment. 

Not so strange when the gearbox is sealed for life, nobody need an adapter.😂

i had to be Sherlock Holmes to get the corect adapter in Norway, the flush unit importer sent wrong adapter and after that i found the corect fore them on the net, i guess i am the first in Norway that hawe flushed an Is250.

 

[Bugster_MR2]

According to BG in Norway, this adapter (nr 126) is what they need. But I am not so sure after reading Alfalfas posts. 😛

Which shop did you use, Alfalfa?

[Alfalfa]

5 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

According to BG in Norway, this adapter (nr 126) is what they need. But I am not so sure after reading Alfalfas posts. 😛

Which shop did you use, Alfalfa?

The adapters was borrowed from the BG importer , i flushed my car at A N Funnemark  in Notodden, now bilia Notodden.

[Alfalfa]

Just now, Alfalfa said:

The adapters was borrowed from the BG importer , i flushed my car at A N Funnemark  in Notodden, now bilia Notodden.

First BG sent something similar to the 3 pictures in the bottom, but i helped to get the corect that is like the 3 in the top, so if they have not sent it back to the BG faktory they still have it.

[Alfalfa]

4 minutes ago, Alfalfa said:

First BG sent something similar to the 3 pictures in the bottom, but i helped to get the corect that is like the 3 in the top, so if they have not sent it back to the BG faktory they still have it.

If you are Norwegian call me on 46660175. Better to explain in Norwegian.