Yet another automatic oil change question - BG flushing and Total oil products?

[Bugster_MR2]

Hi

My local workshop is confident there is no problem for them to flush my 07 IS250 auto transmission using the BG flushing machine with cleaning-chemicals. (https://www.bgprod.com/services/transmission/)

Since they are a Total Energies oil distributor, they suggest this oil:

"TOTAL FLUIDMATIC DVI MV

• TOTAL FLUIDMATIC DVI MV is an innovative automatic transmission fluid based on an advanced synthetic technology allowing very high performances. This fluid is Approved DEXRON® VI"

 

I've read loads of threads on not to flush, only tap and fill and only with Toyota fluids.

Has anyone got experience with BG flushing machines and/or this type of Total oil for the transmission?

 

Thanks.

 

Bug

[Linas.P]

First questions I would ask - do you actually have any issue with your gearbox so you considering this? Not only because of "whenever you looking for issues", but as well because if this process causes some issues it will be easier to prove i.e. if there were no problems before you did it, then the process caused the issue, but if there were already issue and they became worse it would be very difficult to prove it caused further damage.

Second question - does the company doing the job provides any guarantee or at least have suitable insurance cover to support you if you face issues?

Finally, let's not confuse the two - ATF top-up, replacement, refresh etc is not "flushing the transmission" and it does not clean it. It is very simple process - drain ATF and replace it with same just new ATF. When you say cleaning chemicals, this is completely different process. I can't say for sure how it works and what it does, but it is fundamentally more complex process which cleans transmission internally before replacing the fluid. How do they ensure there is no "cleaning" chemical are left in the transmission after it is done I have no clue and if any left then how do they ensure that does not cause issues for transmission going forward I don't know either. In any case this is more risky than ATF change and I would not recommend it unless you already have an issue and this is the last resort.  

[Alfalfa]

I did flush my Is250 but  I did’nt use the chemical  cleaning stuff, advised by the Lexus workshop boss, reason for not using the cleaning fluid was to avoid loose Debris from the gearbox to get in the solenoids.

My gearbox was in my opinion in full order before the flush but after the Flushing the gearbox is more responsive , flushed because the car had 250000km on the meter.

i cant recomend or not recomend but tell my story, so its up to you what decision you make, i dont know the Brand name of the Flushing machine  but its a Toyota store that did the job.

[Bugster_MR2]

Thanks Linas: 

1. Absolutely no issues. Just thinking about the fact my oil is 15 years old and have been there for 138000km. I do not believe in "filled for life" statements from any manufacturer. 

2. No, not really. But they claim no bad experiences in the past and have done hundreds of flushing jobs, including other Toyotas, but no Lexuses so far. 

They say they spend between 12 and 14 litres of fresh oil during flushing procedure to make sure all old oil and chemicals gets flushed out. 

 

Alfalfa: 

Thanks for your input. Good to hear.  I asked my local Toyota workshop, but they just answered "Not necessary. No recommend intervals from Lexus." 

[Mr Vlad]

BG product. Mmmmmm that's the American company yes? I contacted them about their inlet valves cleaning system. Got a reply we don't sell outside of the USA. 

So the place you've come across I assume they're an auto box specialist? Then if so that's perfectly ok. Just get proof they've done lots of toyota auto boxes. Now because your place has stated they use between 12 and 14 litres of oil to flush through then that sounds Good.

Personally I've not heard of the BG machine. I have however very recently heard of the Launch cat 501s machine which does exactly the same. 

Don't be put off by the 'experts' on here. They're mostly Google informed trolls. 

If you feel your car would benefit from a flush and fill then go for it. What are they charging for it by the way? I've been quoted in the region £500 for the cat 501s system. 

Ask them where they attach the machine to. For your information the oil cooler is located on the drivers side of the gearbox, that's where the take off is used in the machine and also its a specific union joint.

Let us know how you get on. 

[Alfalfa]

This is the conectors for the Is250 in my case.

[Bugster_MR2]

Vlad: Thanks. Yes, the american brand. Workshop charges around GBP 600. They aren't really auto box experts. Just an all round workshop with wide experience in all things regarding cars. 

Alfalfa: Thanks! Excellent info. Doesn't hurt to be a well informed customer. 🙂 Are you norwegian? I see one of the pictures you posted has norwegian text. 

[Las Palmas]

No oil last forever. So no matter what Lexus/Toyota claim it is better to have oil that is lubricating correct than oil that is no longer as good as it once was.

I would stick to the oil recommended by car manufacturer but I do not believe it it better to change the whole gearbox than the oil. That is only better for the company selling the gearbox.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

Thanks Linas: 

1. Absolutely no issues. Just thinking about the fact my oil is 15 years old and have been there for 138000km. I do not believe in "filled for life" statements from any manufacturer. 

2. No, not really. But they claim no bad experiences in the past and have done hundreds of flushing jobs, including other Toyotas, but no Lexuses so far. 

They say they spend between 12 and 14 litres of fresh oil during flushing procedure to make sure all old oil and chemicals gets flushed out. 

I think your are about right - "lifetime" just probably means 10years/100k miles, because after that manufacturer and most owners considers car not worth fixing. There should be no problems after 100k miles (so you still have ~20k kilometres to go), but after that would be the time I would consider replacing ATF, but again - not "flushing" and especially not with some chemicals. 

In the end of the day it is your car, so if you trust the shop and they would fix gearbox if something goes wrong then go for it, I personally would stay with few litters of fresh ATF ("top-ups") or at most removing pan and replacing filter, which then takes about 4L of ATF. As I said before I would only consider flushing as last resort i.e. you have solenoid error of some sort, ATF and filter change did not help and then you have an option to either flush the box or replace it. That said I would like to replace filter after flushing, so kind of requires yet another visit to workshop to take the pan off and replace and even more ATF.

[Alfalfa]

8 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

Vlad: Thanks. Yes, the american brand. Workshop charges around GBP 600. They aren't really auto box experts. Just an all round workshop with wide experience in all things regarding cars. 

Alfalfa: Thanks! Excellent info. Doesn't hurt to be a well informed customer. 🙂 Are you norwegian? I see one of the pictures you posted has norwegian text. 

Yes i am Norwegian.

[Alfalfa]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I think your are about right - "lifetime" just probably means 10years/100k miles, because after that manufacturer and most owners considers car not worth fixing. There should be no problems after 100k miles (so you still have ~20k kilometres to go), but after that would be the time I would consider replacing ATF, but again - not "flushing" and especially not with some chemicals. 

In the end of the day it is your car, so if you trust the shop and they would fix gearbox if something goes wrong then go for it, I personally would stay with few litters of fresh ATF ("top-ups") or at most removing pan and replacing filter, which then takes about 4L of ATF. As I said before I would only consider flushing as last resort i.e. you have solenoid error of some sort, ATF and filter change did not help and then you have an option to either flush the box or replace it. That said I would like to replace filter after flushing, so kind of requires yet another visit to workshop to take the pan off and replace and even more ATF.

The pan dont take out 4 L. A lot less.

[Alfalfa]

1 minute ago, Alfalfa said:

The pan dont take out 4 L. A lot less.

 

[SeanR]

Funnily enough, was talking to an engineer earlier this week, he comes into service our machines at work. Very knowledgeable.

He told me what as already been mentioned above about fluid life and manufacturer claims.

I asked him whether i should have it done and mentioned the price what Vlad stated above for the fluid change. He said if you plan on keeping the car then get it done, if not, dont.

He is a BMW fan, had his done at 100k miles but he did put another 50,000 plus miles on the car!

He also stated to avoid the "do it yourself" videos on youtube, get it done properly.

Suppose you just need to work out whether your going to do a fair bit more of mileage, before you sell it.

 

 

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, Alfalfa said:

The pan dont take out 4 L. A lot less.

~3.5L is what the job takes when you replace filter and remove oil pan. So you basically get 4x1L ATF hence 4L. 

[Spock66]

13 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

Yes, the american brand. Workshop charges around GBP 600. They aren't really auto box experts. Just an all round workshop with wide experience in all things regarding cars. 

Seems a lot to spend when you are not sure of the outcome and whether it's the correct grade oil.

But I don't believe sealed for life either, I think 10-years / 100k is about right for transmission oil.

I'd suggest go to a garage that does a simple drain oil, remove pan, fit new filter and refill with correct Toyota product.

[Barry14UK]

This is a subject that causes quite a bit of controversy on car forums and certainly on a BMW forum I am still a member of.  Reference was also made to the American experience because they tend to put more miles on their cars many do change their transmission fluid rather than accept the 'sealed for life' statement. The majority view on the BMW forum was better to change transmission fluid at regular intervals of about 70K miles and not after 100K miles if it had not been done by then but safest not to flush anyway.  I had my 5 series  replaced, (without flush), at 75K miles and changes seemed slightly better and at over 100K they are still almost imperceptible.

I think how long you intend to keep the car as your own is a big factor for UK drivers many only keeping  for 3 or 4 years or lease period and changing transmission oil is not even considered yet alone a flush.

[Mr Vlad]

Just to reiterate the use of a cleaning detergent in an auto gearbox. Let's first divert to the a carburettor with a multitude of delicate precision jets. The use of a carburettor cleaner. Mmmmmm that's a detergent with some kind of an acid to help it dissipate into the atmosphere. I don't ever recall anyone anywhere saying 'oh no you mustn't use that stuff coz it'll shift crud where it shouldn't go' yet there is a good number of folk saying just that when it comes to an auto box with solenoids in it. Scaremongering balderdash. I'd suppose however there may be a case or three where a very high mileage is250 with a problematic gearbox has this treatment done but to no avail and the gearbox is ruined. That case is an extreme and for a neglected very high mileage car.

However for a car which is about 14 years old and with 100k miles this treatment would be beneficial. No I'm no expert and I absolutely don't claim to be one. Unfortunately there are experts who are absolutely not but who give negative opinion. 

There is the technology now that this treatment using a tried and tested cleaner and flush of the oil, oh and the correct oil WF in our case, is the way to go. Yes it's expensive but less than a 1/4 the price of a new or recon gearbox.

I've spoken with dedicated auto gearbox specialists, some with such a machine and some without. They have worked on all top end cars with those fancy all singing all dancing gearboxes which make our gearboxes seem archaic. Those specialists with the treatment have used it with absolutely no issues whatsoever. Those specialists without the treatment are in the process of getting the machine. 

Bug, you go right ahead and get that machine treatment and if possible video it that folk on here can see the process in action and let us know ow the outcome at monthly intervals. 

[Alfalfa]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

~3.5L is what the job takes when you replace filter and remove oil pan. So you basically get 4x1L ATF hence 4L. 

Not according  the diagram i found, but i wasent there when i got my car done, so maybe you are right.

[Alfalfa]

9 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Just to reiterate the use of a cleaning detergent in an auto gearbox. Let's first divert to the a carburettor with a multitude of delicate precision jets. The use of a carburettor cleaner. Mmmmmm that's a detergent with some kind of an acid to help it dissipate into the atmosphere. I don't ever recall anyone anywhere saying 'oh no you mustn't use that stuff coz it'll shift crud where it shouldn't go' yet there is a good number of folk saying just that when it comes to an auto box with solenoids in it. Scaremongering balderdash. I'd suppose however there may be a case or three where a very high mileage is250 with a problematic gearbox has this treatment done but to no avail and the gearbox is ruined. That case is an extreme and for a neglected very high mileage car.

However for a car which is about 14 years old and with 100k miles this treatment would be beneficial. No I'm no expert and I absolutely don't claim to be one. Unfortunately there are experts who are absolutely not but who give negative opinion. 

There is the technology now that this treatment using a tried and tested cleaner and flush of the oil, oh and the correct oil WF in our case, is the way to go. Yes it's expensive but less than a 1/4 the price of a new or recon gearbox.

I've spoken with dedicated auto gearbox specialists, some with such a machine and some without. They have worked on all top end cars with those fancy all singing all dancing gearboxes which make our gearboxes seem archaic. Those specialists with the treatment have used it with absolutely no issues whatsoever. Those specialists without the treatment are in the process of getting the machine. 

Bug, you go right ahead and get that machine treatment and if possible video it that folk on here can see the process in action and let us know ow the outcome at monthly intervals. 

I did the flush vitout cleaning detergent, only the Toyota gearbox oil.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Alfalfa said:

I did the flush vitout cleaning detergent, only the Toyota gearbox oil.

I am not sure we using same definition for flushing then. If you didn't use additional chemicals to clean, then I would not consider that "flushing".

[Alfalfa]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I am not sure we using same definition for flushing then. If you didn't use additional chemicals to clean, then I would not consider that "flushing".

Ok, i flush oil through the gearbox with a Flushing machine,  but i did’nt do the first step in a normal Flushing , meaning that i did’nt use the Cleaning detergent, if this mean Flushing or not  i dont know but the purpose of the job was to get all the old oil out of the gearbox and replace it with new, since i used a Flushing machine i call it Flushing, i was advised by a Lexus chief mechanic that not use the detergent because the gearbox had 250000km run and debris from the gearbox could get in the solenoids and make problems, if the car had 100000km on the meter i would have used the detergent fluid.

[Linas.P]

Fair enough, I just wonder what is the benefit of "flushing" it with machine, over simply removing pan, changing the filter and refilling? I guess less mess? But I would be less confident about having correct amount of fluid afterwards. 

[Bugster_MR2]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Fair enough, I just wonder what is the benefit of "flushing" it with machine, over simply removing pan, changing the filter and refilling? I guess less mess? But I would be less confident about having correct amount of fluid afterwards. 

The benefit would be to get all the old oil out. By only dropping the pan, a lot of old oil would still be left inside the converter. And flushing with or without chemicals would in theory also flush out dirt and grime. 

[Mr Vlad]

There's Flushing and Replenishing. Flushing uses an agent Replenishing doesn't. 

To check the level of oil after either of the above is the same as the top up method. By removing the level plug at the correct temperature of the oil.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, Bugster_MR2 said:

The benefit would be to get all the old oil out. By only dropping the pan, a lot of old oil would still be left inside the converter. And flushing with or without chemicals would in theory also flush out dirt and grime. 

Well in theory most of the grime should be on the bottom of the pan anyway, so by dropping it and letting old and dirty ATF to drip out, most of the grime should be out once pan is cleaned. On top of that by removing half of old ATF out, one needs less new ATF to refresh it (and yes indeed, after replacing only what is in the pan, it still leaves 50% of old ATF). Instead with this method there is a risk of lifting grime from the pan and push it into the transmission (literally all grime has to go through transmission before getting out, so real question is just whenever it get's stuck somewhere on the way) and it requires a lot more ATF to achieve similar results. 

I mean again - I get it, if there is already an issue which was not solved by replacing filter and half of ATF, then flushing with chemicals to remove remaining grime (after pan was already cleaned) could be a last option before starting to replace mechanical parts. But I think doing "flushing" on fully working gearbox without any issues is like looking for trouble. As well it could be summarised by saying that it is always best to use least aggressive method first before using more aggressive one (applies to almost anything). So the least aggressive would be to do so called to-up - say 2L of new ATF in, 2L of old ATF out every year, so that ATF is refreshed gradually not disturbing gearbox too much. If this is not enough or once in 5 years, maybe pan out, replace the filter and replace 4L ATF... and only when both of these are not enough - only then flushing with chemicals. At least that is what I would do.