Can I mention the "H" word again...?

[Mincey]

A hydrogen powered Lexus/Yamaha V8: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1974483

[Linas.P]

Been posted in the forum few times, so certainly not new news 🙂 

I still think hydrogen is the future, just doubt that burning it in ICE way is best idea. It sounds cool and I am sure there will niche for it in more enthusiast application, motorcycles, maybe some low volume sports cars, but for general use just too inefficient.

[Malc]

bah humbug Linas ....... I'm pre-ordering mine now for 2050 ...........  jeez my 100th birthday pressie to myself 

Malc

[Mr Vlad]

Good on ya Malc. I really hope you make it past your 100th so you can enjoy your hydrogen powered vehicle 👍

[ALAW]

Yes James of course you can. I recently watched a Local authority environment & regen committee meeting and quite a few mentions about Hydrogen. I think Lexus have decided to go the EV route. i personally think it has a future when that would be i dont know wouldnt like to even guess.

[Cotswold Pete]

The future has to be a nuclear fusion powered car,  might need a big trailer to contain  the chamber.

The trick as I understand it is energy storage density, with fossil fuels benig very dense (they have had several million years to be compressed), and all other options less so, meaning more space required for batteries, hydrogen tanks etc. to achieve same output for same length of time.

I think the future will be driving will just get more expensive and we will all learn to commute less.  The production of energy takes energy, so I still think our race to utilise more energy consuming devices (cars, dish washers, etc) is a bit of a challenge until fusion is sorted (maybe)

[Linas.P]

16 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

The future has to be a nuclear fusion powered car,  might need a big trailer to contain  the chamber.

The trick as I understand it is energy storage density, with fossil fuels benig very dense (they have had several million years to be compressed), and all other options less so, meaning more space required for batteries, hydrogen tanks etc. to achieve same output for same length of time.

I think the future will be driving will just get more expensive and we will all learn to commute less.  The production of energy takes energy, so I still think our race to utilise more energy consuming devices (cars, dish washers, etc) is a bit of a challenge until fusion is sorted (maybe)

But... if nuclear fusion would become reality, then hydrogen basically becomes the best fuel. 100% clean and recyclable and energy consumption to make it basically irrelevant, because nuclear fusion is near limitless power source, the only issue is how to transport that energy and hydrogen is clearly the best way.

In some way that is already true, because a lot of nuclear fission energy is already wasted, at times even 40-60%... and it would already be possible to convert that otherwise wasted emery in hydrogen. Economically it is even more viable, because in theory we can just build loads and loads of nuclear power plants so where underground, like even in desert or north/sought poles, just solely to convert water into hydrogen and then use LPG carriers, running themselves on hydrogen to transport it back to centres of population. 

The only reason why nuclear power is so expensive is because we have issue with public opinion and all sorts of groups tries to stop it, which inevitable makes it very expensive to build the reactor and even more expensive to decommission it, but if reactor is in the middle of nowhere and nobody has objections to it, then we even today would be able to make very very affordable and very very low carbon hydrogen in bulk. 

[LenT]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:49 PM, Cotswold Pete said:

The future has to be a nuclear fusion powered car,  might need a big trailer to contain  the chamber.

I’m no physicist, but I would have thought that the future of nuclear fusion in transport is in the generation of cheap electricity with which to charge the batteries of EVs.  And even that’s a long way off!

[Linas.P]

23 minutes ago, LenT said:

I’m no physicist, but I would have thought that the future of nuclear fusion in transport is in the generation of cheap electricity with which to charge the batteries of EVs.  And even that’s a long way off!

fusion for cheap electricity - yes. But Charging batteries of BEV would be least efficient way to use it, because Battery manufacturing itself is very dirty and charging time is very time consuming and inconvenient. Even making something like CO2 neutral synthetic fuel would be better idea, or carbon capture, but hydrogen is just most convenient as it is full 100% reversible process - we can make hydrogen and oxygen from water and once used oxygen and hydrogen again becomes water. No waste product, quick to refuel - just perfect medium to carry energy. 

[LenT]

16 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

fusion for cheap electricity - yes. But Charging batteries of BEV would be least efficient way to use it, because battery manufacturing itself is very dirty and charging time is very time consuming and inconvenient. Even making something like CO2 neutral synthetic fuel would be better idea, or carbon capture, but hydrogen is just most convenient as it is full 100% reversible process - we can make hydrogen and oxygen from water and once used oxygen and hydrogen again becomes water. No waste product, quick to refuel - just perfect medium to carry energy. 

True enough, Linas.  But in the years it’s going to take to engineer an effective, cost-efficient fusion process it’s entirely possible that Battery development will also make remarkable strides.

Hydrogen does have all the benefits you describe.  But it has been around for many years and has yet to be exploited as enthusiastically as it might. Primarily, I suspect, because it is difficult and dangerous to transport and store.  No doubt these too are problems that are currently engaging the minds of such as Toyota.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, LenT said:

True enough, Linas.  But in the years it’s going to take to engineer an effective, cost-efficient fusion process it’s entirely possible that battery development will also make remarkable strides.

Hydrogen does have all the benefits you describe.  But it has been around for many years and has yet to be exploited as enthusiastically as it might. Primarily, I suspect, because it is difficult and dangerous to transport and store.  No doubt these too are problems that are currently engaging the minds of such as Toyota.

But you know lithium isn't that great to transport and store either... and has tendency to randomly burst into highly toxic and hard to put out electrical fire. In contract - when you spill hydrogen it simply dissipates into atmosphere and becomes water. The real problem with hydrogen is electrolysis efficiency i.e. it takes so much energy to produce 1L of hydrogen, that by the time you use hydrogen cell to make electricity or indeed burn it, almost 70% of energy is wasted. But here is the catch - if you electricity production contributes to CO2, then such hydrogen will not be very clean, but if you electricity production is carbon neutral, then it technically does not matter - even with awful efficiency the hydrogen will still be carbon neutral. So the challenge is - where do we get loads of carbon neutral electricity.

I think here we don't need to worry about hydrogen vs lithium. The real challenge is nuclear fusion, so this discussion is more of theoretical one i.e. what would happen if they can make nuclear fusion reactor tomorrow, what would be medium in which we can store nearly endless energy it can produce? That would definitely be hydrogen by very long way.... but reality is that tomorrow we sadly won't have nuclear fusion. So it is more of discussion "what if".

However, tomorrow we can have loads of nuclear fission plants and make very very very low CO2 hydrogen. Technology is already there. 

[Malc]

9 minutes ago, LenT said:

No doubt these too are problems that are currently engaging the minds of such as Toyota.

Toyota have a well proven long established hydrogen powered fleet of police cars around Heathrow .......  the Mirai is it ?

Malc

[LenT]

 

1 hour ago, Malc said:

Toyota have a well proven long established hydrogen powered fleet of police cars around Heathrow .......  the Mirai is it ?

Malc

I'm sure you're right.  And I notice that What Car has tested the hydrogen fuel-celled powered Toyota Mirai which is apparently based on a shortened Lexus LS.

Toyota Mirai Review 2022 | What Car?

 Well if Wikipedia is to be believed, the first hydrogen engine was demonstrated in 1808 by a François de Rivaz.  And by 2026 Airbus plans to use an A380 superjumbo to test hydrogen-powered jet engines.  So we've come a long way - and yet still we wait....