Brief Test Drive

[GerryS]

Sorry - slightly long first post. Firstly, a bit of context.

I have (I think) a slightly different car buying model. I tend to buy (outright, no finance) a fairly decent car at 2 or 3 years old and keep if for quite a long time - assuming it's still going well and not costing too much money. So, I currently have a Volvo XC90 D5 diesel 2006, which I've owned for about 13 years and is now at 142k miles - this is well maintained and always has decent quality tyres, etc. We still use it as our main car for long trips and it's currently running as well as ever. But obviously there's always a risk with an old car, plus I woud be considering some more expensive maintenance this year, like changing the timing belt for the second time (changed it based on age rather than mileage first time round, possibly too early).

Now kids have grown up and left home we no longer need a 7 seater and think it might be the right time to change. So, I've always admired Lexus cars for their engineering quality and slightly different approach. Ideally, I would have liked something like a low mileage GS250 with the lovely 6 cyclinder engine (we don't do a massive mileage, so could justify). However, as people know, used car prices are actually bonkers at the moment. GS250s which I guess would have been around £10k a couple of years ago are now being advertised at £13k to £15k. We actually looked at a lovely low mileage GS250 last summer, but thought it was overpriced at £13.5k (Hindsight suggests it wasn't - it's probably worth even more now.) And these are 9 - 10 year old cars...

So, for the first time I thought it might be worth looking at new, in this case the ES300h, and buying it on PCP. Especially since Lexus have a scrappage scheme running unti the end of March - this doesn't seem to be well advertised on their website, but does does state a £4k scrappage towards a new ES300h. I suspect most ES buyers aren't actually going to be scrapping anything, but it would work well for us. The Premium Edition looks good value for spec vs price. Definitely want to stay below the 40K luxury tax threshold.

So, we went to the local Lexus dealer yesterday and had a chat about the ES300h. I guess it's not one of their top selling models - no new ones available for test. However, they did have a 21 reg used model, which they let us take out for a drive. Salesman wasn't actually sure what model it was, thought it was a Premium Edition - it wasn't an F-sport. Went along the motorway for a few miles because motorway comfort and refinement are pretty high up our wish list.

Positives were - as expected - lovely build quality. Like the interior and the space. Ride was decent enough on 18" wheels with 45 profile tyres. However, I came away with a slight sense of disappointment about refinement. Maybe my expectations were too high, but I was expecting more of a quiet wafting experience. As I say, it was fine, but for some reason I expected more. Not engine noise, but probably road/tyre noise. Also, it may be the way I drove it, but when I pulled out to another lane to overtake, it did seem to put the engine revs up far too much - yes, I realise that's a characteristic of the CVT (I've driven CVTs before). Is that a case of learning how to modulate the accelerator so you can get acceleration without over the top revs? When pushed (e.g. coming down the motorway slip road) the performance was absolutely fine. I just left it in normal mode. Is there the possibility of controlling things more with a paddle shift?

So, all the reviews I've read talk about the refinement and comfort (apart from one which mentioned road noise). Could this be affected by tyre choice? Are owners pleased with the refinement? Am I expecting too much? Driving home in my XC90 was obviously far more rumbly at low speeds (5 cylinder diesel), but on the motorway I wasn't convinced it was much different. I fairly frequently use hire cars, so familiar with quite a range of average new cars.

So, I'm in a quandary. I think I could get a good deal on the ES300h with the finance and scrappage. However, delivery not likely to be until August. Also we were told prices are going up on 22nd Feb, so would need to make a quick decision.

It struck me that the ES would be absolutely superb with a 6 cylinder engine (I know that's available in other markets) or even a turbo 4 cyclinder with more mid-range torque - but yes, I know that's not the way Lexus are going.

Do any of those concerns make any sense to current owners? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Many thanks,

Gerry

 

 

[peniole]

Re tyre choice, yes makes a massive difference. I didn't like the dunlops that came with it (they were on the tester too), so negotiated a swap at delivery. A softer compound makes it more refined on motorways, sadly our UK motorways are very roughly surfaced, especially the ones I use, so don't expect miracles. Tyre pressure also makes a bit of a difference. The F sport is on 19" wheels and harder suspension even in comfort mode. If you value comfort, then base, premium or Takumi. Although the latter will hit the 40k limit.

Yes, I found the premium edition the sweet spot and good value for money. Some pretty good deals on carwow shy of 32k with metallic on premium edition.

Re overtaking, the eCVT (not belt driven) takes some getting used to. Yes, pedal modulation definitely the way to go. Paddles or + - on gearshift not very helpful, best to let it do its thing.

See this for how it works if you're a geek like me (yes I know it says RAV4, same setup p710). For me it made a difference on how I drove it when I understood the internal workings of the thing.

 

[beyond the blue]

The first thing that springs to my mind after reading your post....... If you are happy to buy used, if you are not bothered about mpg, if you want the wafty ride, what about a used LS? l have had XJ jags, RX Lexus amongst others yet my ES still brings a smile to my face when l drive it. Yes it has it's faults but not many. Personally if l was you l would wait till used prices drop.

 

[Thackeray]

1 hour ago, GerryS said:

it may be the way I drove it, but when I pulled out to another lane to overtake, it did seem to put the engine revs up far too much - yes, I realise that's a characteristic of the CVT (I've driven CVTs before). Is that a case of learning how to modulate the accelerator so you can get acceleration without over the top revs?

Internal combustion engines deliver maximum power at fairly high revs (maybe 4-5000 rpm) but maximum torque can be delivered at much lower revs. Particularly in a diesel you might be getting maximum torque from maybe 1,600 rpm up to maybe 3,000 rpm.

In a manual transmission car, you can get maximum power if you want it by changing down to, say, second gear (depending on the car) at around 40 or 50 mph and accelerating up to 70 mph still in second gear (or maybe third). But this is very noisy and the average driver doesn't really like the noise. So they don't ask the car for maximum power by changing down and instead rely on the torque to provide them with the acceleration. If you stay in third when you want acceleration or even fourth, that's usually enough for the average driver, particularly in a diesel, and it isn't as noisy as changing down to second, which the manual gearbox with fixed gear ratios obliges you to do if you want maximum power.

By contrast, the Toyota/Lexus CVT works differently. It can give you any ratio and hence maximum power just by pressing the accelerator. If you press the pedal hard, the car takes it that you want maximum power, which means high revs and of course it's more noisy, like changing down to second. But a manual gearbox can't give you maximum power unless you change down, which most people choose not to do.

So in a manual transmission car, if you want to the engine at 4-500 rpm you have to change down a gear or two. In a Lexus hybrid you just press the accelerator.

[e-yes]

2 hours ago, GerryS said:

it did seem to put the engine revs up far too much - yes, I realise that's a characteristic of the CVT

That's not a characteristic of CVT, it is the characteristic of any ICE engine.

The difference with CVT is that there are no fixed ratios. Revs stay at the point where peak output (as per the load) is. The best acceleration will occur at a certain RPM (and definitely not low RPM). The classic fixed ratio gearboxes most people are used to only sound different (and very likely waste fuel during shifts whereas CVTs do not waste fuel. Some of the newer manual shift boxes do the contrary, they hold on to revs even after clutch is engaged and surprisingly that is due to meeting emissions regulations... direct injection engines are complex)

Over time I have noticed that it is very much possible to use too much throttle on the ES... old habits basically 😕 . The same amount of progress can be made with easing off the throttle. If some very rapid progress is needed then simply use kick down... this I think only works well in the Toyota/Lexus eCVT due to electric assist. (Highly recommend to watch Prof. John Kelly's video posted by @peniole above, the MG1 can spin up to 17000 RPM in about three or four seconds)

Also, to get some context, I would recommend if possible try other cars and see for yourself how bad a racket all those cars make. I tried Volvo V90, had experience from a similar (slightly lower powered) BMW and just before the ES I had Audi A6 2.0 TDI.

Volvo V90 I think is the worst offender in terms of high rev noise under load. Turbo in the Volvo definitely helps but by providing torque earlier in the rev range... however acceleration only happens at high RPMs (at least, rapid acceleration only happens at high RPMs).

None of the cars I have owned or driven have been as refined as the ES. It does take some time to understand how to best operate it.

In my experience, when operating in town, try and keep the Hybrid Power indicator in the lower half of the Blue Zone. When moderate acceleration is needed, modulate the throttle so that Hybrid Power indicator is making a semi-circle with both Blue and White (i.e. it is in the Power Zone). Anything else, simply kick down and watch your speed climb into high two digits with ease.

And yes, the paddles and ECO mode are useless. It is not a sporty car. Definitely the slowest accelerating car off the line but very well within the range of it's competitors. None of it's competitors are under 5s 0-62mph.. all of them are within 7s to 9s which in everyday practical driving conditions is too small a range to make any real difference. On the motorway though, it is no slouch for sure and I would argue definitely not slower than it's competitors between 55mph to 75mph but so much more quieter and with a planted confident ride. Just need to learn how to modulate the throttle.

HTH,

--E

[First_Lexus]

@GerryS A few things to consider.

First the RX 450h. Great deals available now as it’s being replaced in the next 18-24 months. I was able to secure one for far less than the new NX. It isn’t a seven seater either. Worth a look.

Second, the GS 450h. Having had one as a courtesy car, it is a very smooth and refined place to be. They aren’t common, especially the later ones, but worth seeking out if you’re looking at an ES.

Third, as @beyond the bluenotes, look at a later LS.  Great value and awesome vehicles.

Lastly, other marques. I may be committing heresy here, but the DS 7 Crossback seems to fit everything you are looking for at a decent price. Will it last the pace re: reliability? Who knows, but Citroen perform far better than German ‘premium’ brands In the various surveys and given the price it may well be worth a look…

[GerryS]

Thanks all - appreciate your comments.

The ES I drove had Dunlop tyres, so interesting that @peniole swapped them over.

I started looking for something "interesting" and comfortable and probably older quite a few months ago - including keeping an eye out for what LS's were available online. Also v interested in the GS450h, but facelift post-2016 models are really rare. There's only one currently on Autotrader - £32k for a 2017. I think the facelifts look significantly nicer and more modern. It was the inflated used car prices that have made me start looking at new.  Unfortunately, I've been scanning cars for about 18 months, so very aware of how much prices have increased in that period.

In some ways there's no rush - I could wait and see if used prices settle again, but who knows where they're going. There's a (very) long thread on PistonHeads about used car price increases and people's views on where they'll go in the future.

I did go on CarWow for some quotes, but nothing's come in below £35k at the moment. I suspect RX450h is way above my budget, even with deals.

Anyway, lots to consider. Thanks for the advice.

[peniole]

9 minutes ago, GerryS said:

I did go on CarWow for some quotes, but nothing's come in below £35k at the moment.

I guess it depends on your area, how much dealers are willing. We have a couple of members on here reporting edgware road lexus dipping below the 32k mark.

in this thread

On 2/12/2022 at 10:35 AM, Cs150 said:

Sorry I do not know about the part ex, but not sure why it would differ. Looks like prices have moved slightly from when I bought it last year. As Carwow prices are dynamic and update constantly. If I log in these are the offers as of today:

 

[SSUR]

The ES is pretty refined with a better ride than GS. Plenty of power from 300h unless you drive as if you need 450h.

For me the let down of ES is mediocre interior finish, too many plastics and quality definitely below GS.

I agree with other colleagues, try a used LS 460/600. Having owned several GSs I went for LS600hL premier. Extremely rare as now 70 post 2013 sold, currently 2 on Lexus used to check out.

[serbarry]

On 2/13/2022 at 9:15 PM, GerryS said:

Also v interested in the GS450h, but facelift post-2016 models are really rare. There's only one currently on Autotrader - £32k for a 2017.

If you are not looking for something really recent I would suggest the MK3 GS450H. They are much cheaper than MK4 on AT. I bought mine last December and I really love it. 

[rayaans]

On 2/14/2022 at 12:12 AM, SSUR said:

The ES is pretty refined with a better ride than GS. Plenty of power from 300h unless you drive as if you need 450h.

For me the let down of ES is mediocre interior finish, too many plastics and quality definitely below GS.

I agree with other colleagues, try a used LS 460/600. Having owned several GSs I went for LS600hL premier. Extremely rare as now 70 post 2013 sold, currently 2 on Lexus used to check out.

I suppose that is true to an extent. The ES, despite Lexus claims of being a GS replacement is in the middle between an IS and GS.

Its prices and interior quality reflects that. For example, its nowhere near as expensive as a 5 series or an A6 spec for spec. The A6 Vorsprung with a 2l diesel engine is almost £64k new compared to an ES300h Takumi which sits around £50k. 

[F.A.]

£64k for a 2.0 Diesel?😱. That is ridiculous. I can’t imagine many people buy one of those, unless they are more sensible money on one of the many finance options. 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, F.A. said:

£64k for a 2.0 Diesel?😱. That is ridiculous. I can’t imagine many people buy one of those, unless they are more sensible money on one of the many finance options. 

Well there's a few hefty discounts available for cash buyers and it's almost always cheaper to buy outright on those big barges anyway unless they have some ridiculous finance offers on. Unlikely as the lease market gives huge discounts mostly on the big standard versions hence why there are so many appliances on the road nowadays

But yes the prices of vehicles in general are going sky high. I remember when I bought my RX300 in 2005 for £35k new. It'd cost me £60k now. As is the way of life I suppose

[GMB]

Can I chuck a spanner in the works please?

Get a Volvo S60 T5 /6/8 You get the performance, comfort and looks BUT you need to get a pre 2020 model if you want the unlimited engine.

If you have a ton of money and want a collector's car then it has to be the Polestar One   - not the 2. A bit like the LFA, a loss leader that cost more to make than its selling price.

I could never understand why there would be a paddle shift on a CVT car. Someone please tell me!

I just don't understand why anyone would want a CVT, especially one that pretends it isn't  (a CVT) by simulating gears.

Maybe I am just old fashioned but my IsF always brings a smile to my face.

 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, GMB said:

Can I chuck a spanner in the works please?

Get a Volvo S60 T5 /6/8 You get the performance, comfort and looks BUT you need to get a pre 2020 model if you want the unlimited engine.

If you have a ton of money and want a collector's car then it has to be the Polestar One   - not the 2. A bit like the LFA, a loss leader that cost more to make than its selling price.

I could never understand why there would be a paddle shift on a CVT car. Someone please tell me!

I just don't understand why anyone would want a CVT, especially one that pretends it isn't  (a CVT) by simulating gears.

Maybe I am just old fashioned but my IsF always brings a smile to my face.

 

The only issue is the Volvo saloons are a bit dire. The S60 is a bit of a poor effort IMO, could have been so much better.

And I think most people use paddles for engine braking down hills.

The other thing is Polestar 1 is hard to find. And after seeing a Polestar 2 it's got a very poor quality interior in terms of materials 

[SSUR]

Thanks Rayaans

Agreed re:ES, in US it was Lexus’ best selling car until suvs appeared and was based on Camry. Globally everyone knew it was mid spec between IS and GS, so all the more disappointing Lexus Europe tried to spin it as a direct GS newbee which it clearly is not.
My Lexus dealer told me many other GS owners also easily spotted the lower quality.

Fair point on price though. Astonishing people could spend £64k on a rattle box 4cyl diesel. What is worse is the A8 top line diesel at about £110k. The ES will be much more refined around town but A8 better on motorways as can’t hear the awful diesel noise at that speed. No apologies on diesels I have been screaming against them for years.