Alternative dashcam setup

[peniole]

old ricoh/pentax action camera WG-M1attached to passenger headrest post with a QR plate. Can do looped recording and motion detection. Runs on internal Battery, so no wires needed. Most people will end up charging once or twice a week I think. Can also be hooked up to the rear USB ports if needed, or to a power bank.

Here are a couple of screen grabs. As you can see it picks up both left and right mirrors and windows, and what you're doing (indicators and such). Thought I'd share if anyone i interested in alternative setups that don't require sticking on windscreen or wiring.

arm https://www.amazon.co.uk/AUTUUCKEE-Headrest-Rotation-Adjustable-Shockproof/dp/B09FXLF2PK

ball head with QR plate https://www.amazon.co.uk/SMALLRIG-Panoramic-Ballhead-Arca-Swiss-Compatible/dp/B0833XVLK8

[Linas.P]

Interesting idea...

only one thing to consider... the camera may show things which you as a driver can't see - because it is further behind and has wider angle. This is generally good thing, but once I almost got blamed for the incident because of wide-angle was showing the car which I could not see as a driver (long story short I won).

So the conclusion I made was that in future I will cut the video to natural "human" viewing angle, before sharing it with insurance (~80-90 degrees instead of 140-180 degrees dashcams records). In your case that would be even more relevant, as camera is further away, so shows even more.

In short nothing wrong with mounting (and I understand the desire to capture as much as possible), just some practical considerations when it comes to using the footage to protect yourself.

That is what I would be sending (within red borders) if I were you:

[Herbie]

Image quality is great and I like the idea of it seeing more than a standard dashcam does.

Having said that, it looks like it would be very visible from outside and even though I'm not a lazy person, I could see that I would very quickly get fed up of taking the thing in and out after each journey to avoid it being nicked.

[steve2006]

All this and now it won’t fit in my garage!

[peniole]

7 hours ago, Herbie said:

Image quality is great and I like the idea of it seeing more than a standard dashcam does.

Having said that, it looks like it would be very visible from outside and even though I'm not a lazy person, I could see that I would very quickly get fed up of taking the thing in and out after each journey to avoid it being nicked.

I thought it might be too, with the camera body being orange and the ball head being red. But even outside, the rear tinted windows don't let in enough light, so you'd have to get really close to see it. Unless of course one leaves the sunroof blind open when parked. Admittedly I do remove it daily, but that's why I used a head with a QR plate.

[Boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, peniole said:

old ricoh/pentax action camera WG-M1attached to passenger headrest post with a QR plate. Can do looped recording and motion detection. Runs on internal battery, so no wires needed. Most people will end up charging once or twice a week I think. Can also be hooked up to the rear USB ports if needed, or to a power bank.

Here are a couple of screen grabs. As you can see it picks up both left and right mirrors and windows, and what you're doing (indicators and such). Thought I'd share if anyone i interested in alternative setups that don't require sticking on windscreen or wiring.

arm https://www.amazon.co.uk/AUTUUCKEE-Headrest-Rotation-Adjustable-Shockproof/dp/B09FXLF2PK

ball head with QR plate https://www.amazon.co.uk/SMALLRIG-Panoramic-Ballhead-Arca-Swiss-Compatible/dp/B0833XVLK8

May I just recommend one modification, as if I were a passenger in your car I'd be extremely worried about the action of that camera in the event of a frontal impact, that camera would looks like it would (definitely) pivot around the fixing on the headrest post and end up somewhere buried in the front seat passenger's temporal lobe area, not a nice idea.

If it were rigid bar across both headrest posts the camera would at least probably only pivot downwards.

The actual camera footage looks to be of excellent quality, is the resolution enough to read the number plates in the garage/parking area?

[Herbie]

2 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

If it were rigid bar across both headrest posts the camera would at least probably only pivot downwards.

True, but then the position of the seats couldn't be altered.

[Linas.P]

11 minutes ago, Herbie said:

True, but then the position of the seats couldn't be altered.

Maybe he meant between both post of the same headrest, which would make sense. In such case the only way passenger would be slapped with the camera would be a) the force excreted on camera exceeds strength of the metal headrest post or b) the mount breaks ... but then it would just fly forward.

Simpler solution would be simply fitting camera very close to the headrest, so it could not pivot at all, or very little and just push against headrest itself. 

[Herbie]

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Maybe he meant between both post of the same headrest, which would make sense. In such case the only way passenger would be slapped with the camera would be a) the force excreted on camera exceeds strength of the metal headrest post or b) the mount breaks ... but then it would just fly forward.

Simpler solution would be simply fitting camera very close to the headrest, so it could not pivot at all, or very little and just push against headrest itself. 

Doh!!

Yes, what was I thinking 

Ah well, at least my day can only get better from this low point 

[peniole]

8 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

May I just recommend one modification, as if I were a passenger in your car I'd be extremely worried about the action of that camera in the event of a frontal impact, that camera would looks like it would (definitely) pivot around the fixing on the headrest post and end up somewhere buried in the front seat passenger's temporal lobe area, not a nice idea.

If it were rigid bar across both headrest posts the camera would at least probably only pivot downwards.

The actual camera footage looks to be of excellent quality, is the resolution enough to read the number plates in the garage/parking area?

I was worried about that, although the distance between the camera and the headrest looks exagerated on that image ~5cm, which is why if it were to pivot the camera would hit the headrest. Nevertheless, as the front of the headrest is pliable Tahara and sponge I wasn't taking any chances so you would need to take a hammer to the post to get it to move (loctite). All nuts used were also locking nuts, so vibrations wouldn't have an impact on anything getting loose. You know the belt and suspender approach 😁 Add to that the orientation of the clamp arm only allows up and down pivoting on the balls. Now if I were to rotate it 90 degrees on it's axis, then it could pivot front and back but you wouldn't be able to pivot up and down. Hope that makes sense.

Also, the intertia of the setup is fairly small. The camera weighs 190g and the ball head weights 170g.

Yes resolution is good enough to get plates on the move too as long as the speed differential is not too high.

[peniole]

Here's a sample plate of someone overtaking me on the motorway in drizzle with wipers running, so challenging for most devices. Looks like it did fairly well, does better in the clear, but worse at night. At night the speed differential needs to be much lower. Otherwise, in town at low speeds it's crystal clear but hardly challenging to most cameras.

[Linas.P]

Quick math suggests that if your entire set-up is say 500g and 200mm from axis, then in head on collision at 50MPH it would exert about 1.25kN of force equivalent to 127Kg on the mounting point. I don't believe the mount can hold over 100kg even on locktight. Now sure - if you were to get into head-on collision, then this mount would be least of your worries, but we can look into it other way around - how much force mount can withstand? 20kg maybe? So it will pivot at 15MPH of instant deacceleration (quite possible in collision). The other slightly worrying coincidence is that 15MPH/s is ~0.68G and average car could brake at ~0.6G... so under emergency braking the mount could move!

My math by the way could be all over the place, but I think overall the results are correct. 

[peniole]

The whole arm is 64mm, not sure where you're getting 200mm.

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, peniole said:

The whole arm is 64mm, not sure where you're getting 200mm.

Just guessed... so yes the math will change on that. Now looking at pictures again it does look like much shorter arm than I thought. 

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

I was worried about that, although the distance between the camera and the headrest looks exagerated on that image ~5cm, which is why if it were to pivot the camera would hit the headrest. Nevertheless, as the front of the headrest if pliable tahara and sponge I wasn't taking any chances so you would need to take a hammer to the post to get it to move (loctite). All nuts used were also locking nuts, so vibrations wouldn't have an impact on anything getting loose. You know the belt and suspender approach 😁 Add to that the orientation of the clamp arm only allows up and down pivoting on the balls. Now if I were to rotate it 90 degrees on it's axis, then it could pivot front and back but you wouldn't be able to pivot up and down. Hope that makes sense.

Also, the intertia of the setup is fairly small. The camera weighs 190g and the ball head weights 170g.

Yes resolution is good enough to get plates on the move too as long as the speed differential is not too high.

I understand, but I worked for over thirty five years filming HyGe sled testing, and trust me that ball joint ain’t gonna keep the camera assembly from pivoting around the headrest post.

I used to mount miniature video camera heads (no recording system or control) that weighed less than 50 grams and they had to be secured with at least two points.

 

Hey it’s not your head 🥲

[peniole]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

I understand, but I worked for over thirty five years filming HyGe sled testing, and trust me that ball joint ain’t gonna keep the camera assembly from pivoting around the headrest post.

I used to mount miniature video camera heads (no recording system or control) that weighed less than 50 grams and they had to be secured with at least two points.

 

Hey it’s not your head 🥲

Which is why I picked a short arm, so if it does pivot around the post the whole front of the camera lens smacks into the side of the headrest. I tested that before I locked it into place. The person in that seat is dearer to me than myself and I originally mounted it on my headrest. I'm too big and block a huge view from the camera. Only two solutions were a longer arm on my side, or shorter arm, on passenger side. As we know, the longer the arm the more problematic the forces become.

 

Perhaps a schematic will clarify

[Linas.P]

Makes sense - that is what I said in one of the previous post. As long as it is close enough to headrest or arm is short enough it would simply push against headrest. 

Probably it would still be extra safe to get long arm and mount it on the post on the other side i.e:

[Fatts]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Interesting idea...

only one thing to consider... the camera may show things which you as a driver can't see - because it is further behind and has wider angle. This is generally good thing, but once I almost got blamed for the incident because of wide-angle was showing the car which I could not see as a driver (long story short I won).

So the conclusion I made was that in future I will cut the video to natural "human" viewing angle, before sharing it with insurance (~80-90 degrees instead of 140-180 degrees dashcams records). In your case that would be even more relevant, as camera is further away, so shows even more.

In short nothing wrong with mounting (and I understand the desire to capture as much as possible), just some practical considerations when it comes to using the footage to protect yourself.

That is what I would be sending (within red borders) if I were you:

Linas- you’re a genius how did you manage to inscribe the red frame unto someone else’s picture? I follow this thread on my Iphone and wouldn’t know how to do that 

[Linas.P]

Just took a copy of it on PC and marked approximately what I think normal human would see from drivers position. As I have learned from my experience - insurance companies only want to see exact point where accident happens, unless there is something very important just before or after (like some road markings of traffic lights). If you give too much information, then TP insurance may start nit-picking on other aspects (literally anything just not to pay, or claim 50/50%).

Modern wideangle cameras are wonderful in terms of capturing a lot of view, but they have same issue - they may show things you can't see and TP insurance will claim that because it is on the camera you should have seen it as well, hence partial fault.

The red area can as well be moved if needed to show what happened and having such a wide picture allows one to choose where it is best place it, but don't send the whole thing, because then TP insurance will focus on what they want and works best for their narrative.

In short - it is important to moderate what you capture on dashcam in the way that proves your innocence, no more and no less.

[Fatts]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Quick math suggests that if your entire set-up is say 500g and 200mm from axis, then in head on collision at 50MPH it would exert about 1.25kN of force equivalent to 127Kg on the mounting point. I don't believe the mount can hold over 100kg even on locktight. Now sure - if you were to get into head-on collision, then this mount would be least of your worries, but we can look into it other way around - how much force mount can withstand? 20kg maybe? So it will pivot at 15MPH of instant deacceleration (quite possible in collision). The other slightly worrying coincidence is that 15MPH/s is ~0.68G and average car could brake at ~0.6G... so under emergency braking the mount could move!

My math by the way could be all over the place, but I think overall the results are correct. 

This is hilarious Linas; are you some sort of Mathematician or  photography expert ? 📸📸 Am amazed how the discourse on dashcam positioning got into mathematics of travelling speed and G-forces. 😂😂😂

[Linas.P]

just plugged number into the formula and that was the outcome. It turns out the arm was 64mm instead of 200mm, so the force was 3times lower and it would have required 3 times higher speed to move the camera. 

[peniole]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Makes sense - that is what I said in one of the previous post. As long as it is close enough to headrest or arm is short enough it would simply push against headrest. 

Probably it would still be extra safe to get long arm and mount it on the post on the other side i.e:

Only thing I would change here, is to attach it to both arms as @Boxbrownie recommends above. Remember the longer the arm the more problematic up and down movement from road imperfections become, so you're likely to exceed the ability of the camera's image stabilization to handle vibration/movement. If anyone finds an arm like that with a 1/4 or 3/8" screw mount on the end, I'd like to get a link please.

[Boxbrownie]

17 hours ago, Fatts said:

This is hilarious Linas; are you some sort of Mathematician or  photography expert ? 📸📸 Am amazed how the discourse on dashcam positioning got into mathematics of travelling speed and G-forces. 😂😂😂

Unfortunately most people have absolutely no idea just how much force a 30g impact can produce on simple things within the vehicle interior, I am leaving it there as obviously there is also “it’ll never happen” here, but Linas is on the correct thread.

[peniole]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Unfortunately most people have absolutely no idea just how much force a 30g impact can produce on simple things within the vehicle interior, I am leaving it there as obviously there is also “it’ll never happen” here, but Linas is on the correct thread.

Yes "obviously" we have a trained medical professional qualified in reading one's psyche remotely via forum posts. There's a reason one posts on forums, to inform and be informed. The discussion helps one improve on a design, which clearly I have taken in mind in my last response to Linas citing your own recommendation @Boxbrownie and asking for a link, but your last post is to say the least condescending.

Dashcams ironically are the antithesis of the "it'll never happen" psyche.

[Boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, peniole said:

Yes "obviously" we have a trained medical professional qualified in reading one's psyche remotely via forum posts. There's a reason one posts on forums, to inform and be informed. The discussion helps one improve on a design, which clearly I have taken in mind in my last response to Linas citing your own recommendation @Boxbrownie and asking for a link, but your last post is to say the least condescending.

Dashcams ironically are the antithesis of the "it'll never happen" psyche.

I was just hoping it might save you or your passenger serious injury possibly if the worse happens, your choice.

 

I did try and suggest a safer alternative to the fixing.