35bn tax deficit

[steve2006]

I was reading an article yesterday explaining why wholesale gas prices have gone up so much but the way it apparently affects electricity generation was amusing.

A proud moment was reached when the generation companies managed to run the network for 55 straight days without using a coal fired power station...impressive until you discover that only 3% of power is generated this way.

Electricity generation costs have increased due to a lack of wind resulting in the use of more fossil fuel generation.

Back to the 70’s here we come, super inflation, strikes for more pay, leaves on the line, wrong type of snow plus wrong strength of wind.

Electricity in the following postcode areas will be switched off between 5.00pm and 7.00pm this evening to allow the required demand be met for car charging in the following areas.

Candles, candles...get your candles now!

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, steve2006 said:

Electricity in the following postcode areas will be switched off between 5.00pm and 7.00pm this evening to allow the required demand be met for car charging in the following areas.

More likely, you just going to find out that government allocated you the charging time for the car next Monday at 2PM... and how you get where you going today is your own problem. 

I mean I am sure they won't black out homes or businesses to charge the cars, and I do agree that it would be right priority... however, we need to realise that all this is not necessary at all, if government would simply have coherent plant and phased approach. Instead of having no plan and going big bag at 2030s regardless if we ready or not. 

Obviously, there is still possibility that when comes 2030, goverment in power will realise it is not possible to do without loosing to much votes and push the date back.

[steve2006]

Damn, I should have got to this Tesla charging station earlier!

[Malc]

24 minutes ago, Malc said:

why does no one believe me when I'm saying that the Exchequer Revenue Tax applied to petrol and diesel is actually  80%  ..  not the silly 20% drummed into us

................. 2030 might arrive and by then will also go on and on and on and on as the cut-off date will be extended ad infinitum ( maybe )

sorry guys, I got stopped mid-track

This of course equates to a realtime tax charge of  400%   on the pump and profit cost of the ( wet ) fuel at delivery .........  the actual fuel and profit cost is just one fifth, 20% of the pump price 

AND this nonsense of EVs around the world won't be taken up too much methinks .......  you possibly won't find an EV charging point mid Gobi desert nor climbing the Andes around Aconcagua   .....  nor near to my house rear courtyard by the quayside in Kent 

Malc

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, Malc said:

nor near to my house rear courtyard by the quayside in Kent 

...and I think this last point is most important - if they are not available where we need, at our homes, then BEVs won't work overall!

[Boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Yes it will be like TV license thing, they will see that your electricity bill is rather high and send scammers in high-viz to inspect is you not charging your car "illegally". So better make sure you at least have garage with closing door and 2 massive electric heaters to show as an excuse for suspicious electricity consumtion.

Better than that we have half a mile of drive……🤣

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

why does no one believe me when I'm saying that the Exchequer Revenue Tax applied to petrol and diesel is actually  80%  ..  not the silly 20% drummed into us

For one litre of fuel the base price supplied at the pump is just @ 20% of that pump price to include retailers profit ...  the remainder is actually Petroleum Revenue Tax and VAT

.................. 2030 might arrive and by then will also go on and on and on and on as the cut-off date will be extended ad infinitum ( maybe )

Malc

I know you used to work for NatWest which may explain a lot Malc, but at a pump price of say £1.50, 80% =£1.20, since the standard duty is 57.95 pence how is the additional 62p arrived at? 

[Shahpor]

Taxation into poverty 😞

I am in a fortunate position to be able to pay for the additional costs, but when you have average familys sitting in the cold because they cannot afford to heat their house, something is seriously wrong.  Next it will be, can I afford to leave the house today if pay per mile is introduced...

I read today that analysts are predicting that when the energy cap is reviewed in 6 months that it will go up by another £400 per year!

Since everyone appears to agree that this isn't a short term fluctuation, at what point does it become a big enough problem that the government actually does something other than raise taxes even higher?  They can obviously afford to with things like the write off of £8.7bn in the latest debacle.  🙄

[Malc]

24 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

pump price of say £1.50

yep, hands up, the cold is getting to me

Fuel duty is only 57.9p a litre and on the £1.50 pump price  the 20% vat element will be just 25p

Total tax per litre will therefore be only 82.9p which is only 55.3% of the pump price ......... which is therefore just  67.1p cost of fuel, profit and forecourt costs and a lump of tax on top of all that representing only about a 125% uplift 

sorry, my apologies to everyone here and  the Tax Man .....  the Govt only imposes a simple and meagre 125% overall tax on petrol 

Please correct me again if I'm wrong ...  sorry Rishi, you won't be inviting me to join your team then 😉

Malc

[Phil xxkr]

10 minutes ago, Malc said:

yep, hands up, the cold is getting to me

Fuel duty is only 57.9p a litre and on the £1.50 pump price  the 20% vat element will be just 25p

Total tax per litre will therefore be only 82.9p which is only 55.3% of the pump price ......... which is therefore just  67.1p cost of fuel, profit and forecourt costs and a lump of tax on top of all that representing only about a 125% uplift 

sorry, my apologies to everyone here and  the Tax Man .....  the Govt only imposes a simple and meagre 125% overall tax on petrol 

Please correct me again if I'm wrong ...  sorry Rishi, you won't be inviting me to join your team then 😉

Malc

For any avoidance of doubt this is the RAC analysis 

Daily Fuel Prices

Pump price (pence per litre) of which:

146.68p

150.08p

Wholesale fossil fuel price (comprising oil production & refining)

44.55p

45.03p

Wholesale biofuel price (comprising biodiesel and ethanol production & refining)

8.27p

13.29p

Delivery and distribution

1.7p

2.1p

Retail margin (forecourt costs & profit)

9.1p

6.03p

Duty

57.95p

57.95p

VAT (Petrol 20%, Diesel 20%)

24.45p

25.01p

Greenhouse Gas Obligation & Development Fuel Obligation

0.654p

0.676p

Percentage of the pump price that is duty, VAT & environmental taxes/fees

56.62%

55.73%

Petrol first, diesel second. 

[steve2006]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

Taxation into poverty 😞

I am in a fortunate position to be able to pay for the additional costs, but when you have average familys sitting in the cold because they cannot afford to heat their house, something is seriously wrong.  Next it will be, can I afford to leave the house today if pay per mile is introduced...

I read today that analysts are predicting that when the energy cap is reviewed in 6 months that it will go up by another £400 per year!

Since everyone appears to agree that this isn't a short term fluctuation, at what point does it become a big enough problem that the government actually does something other than raise taxes even higher?  They can obviously afford to with things like the write off of £8.7bn in the latest debacle.  🙄

I was trying to find this out without success.

If by some miracle the gas wholesale price falls and remains so does this mean that the “Price cap” will be lowered contrary to the next cap in October where another rise is suggested.

I thought that the cap was there to prevent suppliers making extortionate profits which if the wholesale price drops significantly they will achieve.

Not holding my breath as I still remember the “potato shortage” when the price of chips went through the roof. They never came back down in price when supplies normalised and the wholesale price of potatoes dropped back down.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, steve2006 said:

I was trying to find this out without success.

If by some miracle the gas wholesale price falls and remains so does this mean that the “Price cap” will be lowered contrary to the next cap in October where another rise is suggested.

I thought that the cap was there to prevent suppliers making extortionate profits which if the wholesale price drops significantly they will achieve.

It will never be lowered, like fuel prices almost never go down when price of oil drops. Well they sometimes fall, but nowhere near as much as oil prices.

[steve2006]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It will never be lowered, like fuel prices almost never go down when price of oil drops. Well they sometimes fall, but nowhere near as much as oil prices.

Same with savings interest, base rate increased twice, Barclaycard statement immediately reflected this by increasing rates not that it affects me as I always pay in full.

Strangely enough not a peep from my savings account provider.

[Moleman]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It will never be lowered, like fuel prices almost never go down when price of oil drops. Well they sometimes fall, but nowhere near as much as oil prices.

I noticed that today, my local supermarket has held petrol at 143.7 for almost a month even with the reduction in oil prices over the same period, no saving passed to the customer. Today they raised the price to 144.3, why? Oil price has not gone up! Captive market we are.

[steve2006]

It’s the “optical pricing” that annoys me.. 149.9 a litre.....gosh that’s a lot cheaper than  150.0 a litre and just try putting exactly £30.00 in, it now jumps from £29.99 to £30.02.

[Phil xxkr]

32 minutes ago, steve2006 said:

Same with savings interest, base rate increased twice, Barclaycard statement immediately reflected this by increasing rates not that it affects me as I always pay in full.

Strangely enough not a peep from my savings account provider.

Bank of England base rate, Bank rate at year end (%)*1979 17, 1980 14, 1981 14.375, 1982, 10, 1983, 9.06. 

And we think today's situation is a nightmare 😎

[Linas.P]

Kind of is - low rate encourages borrowing and borrowing excessively increased inflation. Do you know who benefits from inflation - billionaires who can get access to government money printer and buy real estate and public property for paper money, whilst our savings gets devaluated each year. And as Malc mentioned, banks now charge more for loans, but pays nothing for savings, so the increase in rate is simply not reflected.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Kind of is - low rate encourages borrowing and borrowing excessively increased inflation. Do you know who benefits from inflation - billionaires who can get access to government money printer and buy real estate and public property for paper money, whilst our savings gets devaluated each year. And as Malc mentioned, banks now charge more for loans, but pays nothing for savings, so the increase in rate is simply not reflected.

Who benefits from people at the top of the apex having more money? 

[doog442]

Anyone with any substantial cash savings really should look at investing. Interest rates are also stupidly low compared to what some of us were used to. There are 10 year fixed mortgage rates available for 1.9% for example. 

These gas prices will come down eventually.

 

[Moleman]

24 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Who benefits from people at the top of the apex having more money? 

They do, something they are very good at achieving. 

[Linas.P]

19 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Anyone with any substantial cash savings really should look at investing. Interest rates are also stupidly low compared to what some of us were used to. There are 10 year fixed mortgage rates available for 1.9% for example. 

These gas prices will come down eventually.

 

Great advise... if you could afford the mortgage... house prices are now ridiculously inflated.

If I could get a mortgage then it is definitely best time to do it now (assuming bubble is not going to burst), because you right - keeping cash nowadays is ridiculous. But realistically no under-40's could afford the house without parents support... 

[Phil xxkr]

20 minutes ago, Moleman said:

They do, something they are very good at achieving. 

"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer" how often do we hear this? But is true?  The World Bank reports, the global rate of "extreme poverty" (defined as people living on less than $1.90 per day) was cut in half from 1990 to 2010. Back in 1990, 1.85 billion people lived in extreme poverty, but by 2013, the figure had dropped to 767 million—meaning the number of those living on less than $1.90 per day had fallen by more than a billion people.

[Moleman]

48 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer" how often do we hear this? But is true?  The World Bank reports, the global rate of "extreme poverty" (defined as people living on less than $1.90 per day) was cut in half from 1990 to 2010. Back in 1990, 1.85 billion people lived in extreme poverty, but by 2013, the figure had dropped to 767 million—meaning the number of those living on less than $1.90 per day had fallen by more than a billion people.

I only answered your question, Who benefits - they do. 😁

The poor may or may not have improved their position, but the rich (top 1%) have certainly become richer and they keep getting richer. Those in the middle (most of us) have certainly seen a loss since 2008.

[LenT]

18 minutes ago, Moleman said:

I only answered your question, Who benefits - they do. 😁

The poor may or may not have improved their position, but the rich (top 1%) have certainly become richer and they keep getting richer. Those in the middle (most of us) have certainly seen a loss since 2008.

While that may be broadly true, the top 1% of earners pay about 28% of the total UK tax income.  The top 50% of earners account for about 90%.  So it would appear that the people who are making the most money are already contributing the most in taxable income.  

Seems fair enough to me.

[Moleman]

10 minutes ago, LenT said:

While that may be broadly true, the top 1% of earners pay about 28% of the total UK tax income.  The top 50% of earners account for about 90%.  So it would appear that the people who are making the most money are already contributing the most in taxable income.  

Seems fair enough to me.

That again is all true, but that was not the question or the point being made. Do not disagree.