35bn tax deficit

[Phil xxkr]

 

 

"The UK Government could find itself with a £35bn financial hole if it doesn’t introduce an alternative motoring tax before 2030, according to a new transport committee report.

MPs have argued that by banning the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles from 2030, the Treasury could lose two sources of income, fuel duty and vehicle excise duty, as they are not levied on electric vehicles (EV).

“The resulting loss of two major sources of motor taxation will leave a £35bn black hole in finances unless the government acts now – that’s four per cent of the entire tax-take,” said Huw Merriman, MP for Bexhill and Battle and transport committee’s chair.

“Only £7bn of this goes back to the roads; schools and hospitals could be impacted if motorists don’t continue to pay.”  

There is of course a precedent for this, that of tobacco and smoking. As the number of consumers decline dramatically tax per packet is ramped up in an attempt to make up the difference. But its not enough and the delicious irony is it is made up from non-smokers.. I see a similar situation here where rabid anti ICE voices have to cover the shortfall in taxation 🍻 lovely jubbly. 

 

[cruisermark]

These black holes will keep appearing and will never be filled - unfortunatley!

[Phil xxkr]

16 minutes ago, cruisermark said:

These black holes will keep appearing and will never be filled - unfortunatley!

Yes Mark, about the same number as there are potholes which never get filled up 🤔

[Cotswold Pete]

To encourage people to buy EVs they need tax breaks, but to get everyone to drive EVs you have to tax electricity to the same degree as petrol.  Problem is electricity cannot be divided into super-expensive to the car and less expensive for the home lighting etc.

In the past we moved to Lead Free with incentive so aggressive it made no sense to use leaded, same principle no matter how painful would surely apply to encouraging EVs -  which are not carbon zero or non-polluting, just differently damaging the planet.

[Moleman]

37 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

To encourage people to buy EVs they need tax breaks, but to get everyone to drive EVs you have to tax electricity to the same degree as petrol.  Problem is electricity cannot be divided into super-expensive to the car and less expensive for the home lighting etc.

Well! Smart meters at home can do that. Why do you think they have pushed these so strongly! It is all about future billing and control of supply.

[Moleman]

Just now, Moleman said:

Well! Smart meters at home can do that. Why do you think they have pushed these so strongly! It is all above future billing and control of supply.

Reference:

A new smart metering device can give customers itemised electricity bills that detail how much power different types of appliance are using.

The analysis can also be displayed in real time via a smartphone app.  

The device uses ‘Triple Ohm’ technology developed by Cornwall-based engineering consultancy 42 Technology. It can be embedded in the meter, and works by monitoring changes in the high-frequency current or voltage harmonics caused when specific appliances are being used within a building, and doesn’t require any additional switches or add-ons.

It can differentiate between the characteristic traces of specific appliance types using an algorithm, and display the results in real time or store them on the meter for incorporation into a bill.

The technology can also be used to monitor the load of different appliances. It is capable of differentiating between a vacuum cleaner with a full bag and one with an empty bag.

“We have already built demonstration units, several team members have had them installed in their homes as part of a field trial, and we are starting to collect real usage data to show to potential development partners,” said Jeremy Carey, managing director of 42 Technology.

Research in the US found that giving customers this kind of information LED to a 12% average reduction in the amount of energy they used.

[Malc]

for MPs and anyone else to be at all surprised at the suggested drop off in Tax Revenue is a bit ludicrous .....  ah, no, these are actually MPs so nothings beyond " surprise " methinks ..............

SO then, EVs will sure find themselves in some sort of SuperTax bracket sometime soon I've no doubt .. just wondering how 

Suggestions please everyone 

Rishi might be pleased to hear from us at some time

Malc

[Barry14UK]

Some sort of road pricing needed.  Those using roads most pay most, also discouraging unnecessary use. regardless of how cars are powered. 

[Cotswold Pete]

How about super punative tax for any off-roader, on the basis roads will be so bad only thanks would survive.

Thereby meaning us mere mortals would not risk wrecking our cars, we would end up working and shopping locally, and the government then hammer us with a boot tax.  Hey presto money to waste on any pet project.

Only problem is can inter city rail handle all the goods, and maybe need a lot more stations that we can hire a tank to drive to so we can pick up our orders from amazon

[Ala Larj]

5 minutes ago, Barry14UK said:

Some sort of road pricing needed.  Those using roads most pay most, also discouraging unnecessary use. regardless of how cars are powered. 

Provided there is some sort of concession for people living in rural areas where alternative transport is not available. My nearest shop is two and a half miles away and no bus runs through our village. 

[Moleman]

7 minutes ago, Ala Larj said:

Provided there is some sort of concession for people living in rural areas where alternative transport is not available. My nearest shop is two and a half miles away and no bus runs through our village. 

I agree Alan, but the Green/Eco lobby have never recognised that need or any other need. They think we all live in Cities and can walk, cycle or use public transport.

[Linas.P]

41 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Well! Smart meters at home can do that. Why do you think they have pushed these so strongly! It is all about future billing and control of supply.

They already decided and I believe as of this year it is already mandatory to register car charger and it could be charged at different rate. So all newly intalled car chargers will now have to be metered separately and registered.  

I think most likely it will be that using ISA they will introduce pay per mile VED/Duty. 

[Hamish2015]

Its easy, they will meter power for EV charging separately and at a higher tariff as well as apply VED to EV’s as well. Its looking like 13 amp domestic ring main charging will be pretty useless in real world use and most modern EV’s will need 3.7 to 7 KW/hr capability for charging. 

[Phil xxkr]

6 minutes ago, Ala Larj said:

Provided there is some sort of concession for people living in rural areas where alternative transport is not available. My nearest shop is two and a half miles away and no bus runs through our village. 

Right now I have my head in my hands 🤯🤯🤯. We should be militating to pay less tax and not debating the method by which your money is extracted from you. By meekly accepting this form of theft you are, in effect, conspiring and not championing ways of creating more wealth to give you the means to do more public good if that's your thing. Remember, prescriptions started out at 10p with all sorts of laudable aims they are now nearly £10! And in 2007 Labour proposed a cost per mile charge of £1.50, good luck with that then 🤔. However I could envisage an energy copycat system whereby you pay a "standing charge" and a use charge on top. 

[Phil xxkr]

20 minutes ago, Moleman said:

I agree Alan, but the Green/Eco lobby have never recognised that need or any other need. They think we all live in Cities and can walk, cycle or use public transport.

No Maurice, they think we all live in Chelsea or Notting Hill 😎

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

Well! Smart meters at home can do that. Why do you think they have pushed these so strongly! It is all about future billing and control of supply.

Exactly this, I try to tell people but they mostly still believe they are for our benefit to save money.

 

With our EV we are still using the Granny charger, even a Smart meter doesn’t know when that’s being used or a tumble dryer/heating/cannabis farm etc 😉

[Boxbrownie]

18 minutes ago, Hamish2015 said:

Its easy, they will meter power for EV charging separately and at a higher tariff as well as apply VED to EV’s as well. Its looking like 13 amp domestic ring main charging will be pretty useless in real world use and most modern EV’s will need 3.7 to 7 KW/hr capability for charging. 

Not really true, we have been charging our EV for the past six years using the Granny charger, true our mileage is not motorway salesman region (but that’s not most people’s real world), but every morning it’s sitting there with 120 miles ready to go.

 

They will more than likely make the use of Granny chargers illegal on grounds (unfounded) of safety or some such crap!

[Hamish2015]

2 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Not really true, we have been charging our EV for the past six years using the Granny charger, true our mileage is not motorway salesman region (but that’s not most people’s real world), but every morning it’s sitting there with 120 miles ready to go.

 

They will more than likely make the use of Granny chargers illegal on grounds (unfounded) of safety or some such crap!

Politicians will always find a way David. 

[Moleman]

4 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Not really true, we have been charging our EV for the past six years using the Granny charger, true our mileage is not motorway salesman region (but that’s not most people’s real world), but every morning it’s sitting there with 120 miles ready to go.

 

They will more than likely make the use of Granny chargers illegal on grounds (unfounded) of safety or some such crap!

But they could change this, see my post above.

[Boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, Moleman said:

But they could change this, see my post above.

Well if they make them illegal I’ll start calling mine a Grandad charger, which is really more accurate 😄

[Phil xxkr]

14 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Exactly this, I try to tell people but they mostly still believe they are for our benefit to save money.

 

With our EV we are still using the Granny charger, even a Smart meter doesn’t know when that’s being used or a tumble dryer/heating/cannabis farm etc 😉

Expect a helicopter soon overhead with a heat seeking probe 😎

[Linas.P]

Yes it will be like TV license thing, they will see that your electricity bill is rather high and send scammers in high-viz to inspect is you not charging your car "illegally". So better make sure you at least have garage with closing door and 2 massive electric heaters to show as an excuse for suspicious electricity consumtion.

The funniest thing is that I said for long time that VED is unsustainable tax, because it is arbitrary, not justified and punitive. Punitive tax in essence is designed make discourage the use, but at the same time government heavily relies on this income... so they "cutting the branch they sitting on".

Obviously, they used all sorts of deception and misinformation, demonising the drivers etc. to justify ever increasing this tax. However, result now society wrongly assumed ICEVs are actually bad for us and started using them less and demanding laws banning them. So as it is typical, politicians put themselves into corner by lying and now have to make laws which are counter productive (like ICEV ban). And now they worried that stealing from motorists will stop and there will be tax short fall... of course it will be. 

As well how funny when they say - "but by the way most of VED doesn't even go into the roads" as if that is good excuse! As well is not eve £7b, it is closer to £4bn they spend.. and even then most of it doesn't actually improves roads - £4bn is spend on transportation overall, which included thing like rail and bus subsidies.

[steve2006]

“Cheap rate” car charging will disappear so let’s assume with yesterday’s new “energy cap” a KWH is 30p.

Also assume the charger is 7KW and is used overnight for 4 hours.

So 28KWH @ 30p = £8.40.

Add in the yet to come “Electric vehicle Charging Duty” assume 20p/KWH so £5.60.

Add VAT to the total charged at not 5% but 20% the same as petrol/diesel.

Then just wait for the network to crash when the wind stops blowing 😀

 

 

 

[Malc]

9 minutes ago, steve2006 said:

Add VAT to the total charged at not 5% but 20% the same as petrol/diesel.

why does no one believe me when I'm saying that the Exchequer Revenue Tax applied to petrol and diesel is actually  80%  ..  not the silly 20% drummed into us

For one litre of fuel the base price supplied at the pump is just @ 20% of that pump price to include retailers profit ...  the remainder is actually Petroleum Revenue Tax and VAT

.................. 2030 might arrive and by then will also go on and on and on and on as the cut-off date will be extended ad infinitum ( maybe )

Malc

[Linas.P]

And here where BEV dream ends and real cost of driving "long rage" BEVs with large batteries meets the reality.

Assuming above rates are true (and I think Steve estimation is good starting point), then charge Tesla will cost £46 for 297miles of range, which is very similar to average diesel car, but slightly better than petrol. So not at all cheap, not to even mention the time wasted on charging and finding the charger and initial higher car price. However, if taxation will be anywhere as bad as it is on petrol (59p/L) then it could cost even more (say 30p+59p+VAT) to own to recharge BEV then current ICEVs ~£76.

And all that is assuming they not going to charge something stupid for KWH like some cities were reported to do (£4/KWH). Note as well, that we can disregard "what it would cost at home" - first of all, you may not be able to charge at home, secondly the tariff for car charging may be different at home as well.