Cyclists, new Highway Code rules

[Moleman]

Just now, doog442 said:

Aye, cyclists posting their thoughts on an anti cycling thread...who would have thought it.  

You do realise how obsessive you are looking right now?

[doog442]

Just now, Moleman said:

You do realise how obsessive you are looking right now?

I believe you've made 37 posts on this thread...this is my 33rd ..the stats are in the top right corner.  

[Moleman]

Just now, doog442 said:

I believe you've made 37 posts on this thread...this is my 33rd ..the stats are in the top right corner.  

Obsessed with having a go at me. Get over it mate.

[doog442]

Just now, Moleman said:

Obsessed with having a go at me. Get over it mate.

I'm not sure I'm your 'mate' Maurice....

We haven't reached 'pal' status yet which is good, there's still hope. 

 

[ganzoom]

This article sums up well these threads:)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

I'm clearly in the minority but I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose a car to do an urban commute versus the bike.

I get to work QUICKER on my bike than the car, no worries about parKing, virtually no fuel costs, and it's a cardio work out (so no need to go to the gym). 

I'm about to head off to swimming with my daughter (730am start!). I'll cover more miles in the next hr in the car than a whole week on commuting on the bike, so am no anti car fanatic.

However for the weekday city commute, why do most people refuse to consider using anything else but their cars?? I just don't get it??

[Phil xxkr]

9 hours ago, doog442 said:

I'm not sure I'm your 'mate' Maurice....

We haven't reached 'pal' status yet which is good, there's still hope. 

 

"That's down to experience in dealing with halfwits be it school run mums, white van man or the myriad of others who really shouldn't be on the road in a mechanically propelled vehicle." I had to to read this sentence you wrote more than once 😱.

Yet another example of virtue signalling that seeks to demonise and marginalise whole sections of society from the vantage point of the higher moral ground which they couldn't ever begin to understand. 🤯

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

I'm clearly in the minority but I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose a car to do an urban commute versus the bike.

I get to work QUICKER on my bike than the car, no worries about parKing, virtually no fuel costs, and it's a cardio work out (so no need to go to the gym). 

As somebody born with a disability, I’ve never been physically able to ride a bicycle. However, I think there may be a few reasons based on having worked for three (very) large organisations, all of which had ‘cycle to work’ schemes with little take-up from employees.

First, facilities. One of my employers spent quite a lot of money having showers and changing facilities installed specifically for those running or cycling to work (or at lunchtimes as exercise). However, feedback was that people didn’t want the hassle of cycling and then having to use those facilities. Broadly, most people didn’t want to get sweaty in the Summer or wet and cold in the Winter, and have to carry a suit/work clothes to change into after arrival.

Second, people these days have to carry laptops / other equipment to and from work. Most people I work with need two or three different computers or devices which gets heavy, and due to the WFH shift they can’t simply leave them locked in the office. They therefore have to carry them to and fro each time.

Lastly, I don’t think a lot of people feel safe using a bicycle and/or aren’t ‘into’ exercise enough to change their car ‘habit.’

My current commute is c100 miles each way, but if I was to go back to working in London at any point there are railway stations into Paddington five miles from me and into Waterloo seven miles away. Not being able to use a bicycle, I’d certainly consider something like a Renault Twizy to make those journeys.

As with most things, it depends on individual circumstances. There isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ that can be applied to everybody based on the circumstances of a few.

[Moleman]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

This article sums up well these threads:)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

I'm clearly in the minority but I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose a car to do an urban commute versus the bike.

I get to work QUICKER on my bike than the car, no worries about parKing, virtually no fuel costs, and it's a cardio work out (so no need to go to the gym). 

I'm about to head off to swimming with my daughter (730am start!). I'll cover more miles in the next hr in the car than a whole week on commuting on the bike, so am no anti car fanatic.

However for the weekday city commute, why do most people refuse to consider using anything else but their cars?? I just don't get it??

Hi Gang, that is an interesting article.

Others have already given you some of the reasons not everyone wishes to cycle commute, but if it works for you that is great. I do believe we should where possible make that journey as safe as possible for you.

Personally I am not anti cyclists or cycles, but I have become on here anti idiot (not you),

I enjoy many of your posts particularly about tech in cars and the future, and that is a good example of where you embrace the future currently far more than me and see good things ahead. Me, not yet sure but I suspect I will have to adapt as you are right about the direction being taken.

Look forward to more from you.

[Moleman]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

Yet another example of virtue signalling that seeks to demonise and marginalise whole sections of society from the vantage point of the higher moral ground which they couldn't ever begin to understand. 🤯

Yet when I try to raise this, one individual on this forum personally attacks me (not for the first time). 

Such behaviour devalues the whole forum, shame.

You are of course correct.

[First_Lexus]

I’m going to go off at a slight tangent, but hopefully contributors will understand my reasons.

At various times in my life, after surgery, I’ve had to use a wheelchair. That’s a fascinating experience both as a child and as an adult. What I’ve learned is that most people can’t understand the challenges of using one, but I’ve also gained an appreciation that there was absolutely no reason why they should! I never experienced anybody being ‘nasty’ towards me. I have experienced people saying or doing the ‘wrong’ thing, but I knew it absolutely wasn’t deliberate and was always well meaning.

Having never driven an HGV I don’t understand the challenges of doing so. I can think I do, I can try to, but ultimately my knowledge will always be lacking. It’s the same with cyclists - I can’t fully appreciate what it feels like when (for instance) somebody passes too close. I always try to be considerate. Most people are. It’s the same with aggressive driving between motor vehicles. Most people don’t want to get into a dispute - why would they? Life’s too short.

In my experience, human beings do try to do the right thing. When they don’t it’s usually due simply to a lack of understanding leading to a lack of consideration. In 99.9% of cases, people don’t deliberately try to do the wrong thing or be hostile. The example I like to consider is that when something is reported in the media it is BECAUSE it is unusual. Occasionally we’ll see reports of a taxi driver not accepting a guide dog in their car as one example - if that happened every day it would be far less likely to make the news. The problem is that certain media organisations like to use the exceptions to drive division or their own agendas.

Car drivers, cyclists, HGV drivers, caravanners, farmers driving tractors, horse riders…the more I’ve read this thread, the more I’ve thought that the driving test should cover such examples in far more detail than simply relying on the Highway Code and the theory element of the test. I have no solution as to what that looks like, but as with most things appreciation of difference fosters understanding and more positive relationships.

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

"That's down to experience in dealing with halfwits be it school run mums, white van man or the myriad of others who really shouldn't be on the road in a mechanically propelled vehicle." I had to to read this sentence you wrote more than once 😱.

Yet another example of virtue signalling that seeks to demonise and marginalise whole sections of society from the vantage point of the higher moral ground which they couldn't ever begin to understand. 🤯

I guess the term 'lycra louts' doesn't demonise a whole section of society or even the word 'cyclist'. Malc probably has a whole book of terms 🤣 The thing is Phil I can understand it having experienced the school run on a bicycle and white van man likewise when on two wheels, I can reel off numerous incidents that have almost resulted in my injury.

The rush to get to school, the failure to clear windscreens or side windows, the distraction of little Tarquin in the rear, the need to park as close to the school as they possibly can, often illegally. The ridiculous 4x4 culture.  Trust me the school run is something you try and avoid. As for white van man well that's a phrase used by many road users, a little like 'BMW drivers'. 

[Moleman]

5 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I guess the term 'lycra louts' doesn't demonise a whole section of society or even the word 'cyclist'. Malc probably has a whole book of terms 🤣 The thing is Phil I can understand it having experienced the school run on a bicycle and white van man likewise when on two wheels, I can reel off numerous incidents that have almost resulted in my injury.

The rush to get to school, the failure to clear windscreens or side windows, the distraction of little Tarquin in the rear, the need to park as close to the school as they possibly can, often illegally. The ridiculous 4x4 culture.  Trust me the school run is something you try and avoid. As for white van man well that's a phrase used by many road users, a little like 'BMW drivers'. 

I will try one more time.

In any debate, one side is unlikely to be completely right and the other side completely wrong. I do not question your experiences, why do you question those of others?

In my opinion your responses seek to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. That is I believe obsessive behaviour. I of course could be completely wrong, but your posts do not help you.

Take a step back and relax, please.

[Malc]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

I just don't get it??

I'm sad  ............  you're seemingly fixated on your own personal thoughts on a solution and clearly from this and perhaps other posts here, just not open to understanding and accepting the apparent needs of many others  .....  I do get it quite fully however 

Malc

[mdj8]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

This article sums up well these threads:)

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20130212-why-you-really-hate-cyclists

I'm clearly in the minority but I simply cannot understand why anyone would choose a car to do an urban commute versus the bike.

I get to work QUICKER on my bike than the car, no worries about parKing, virtually no fuel costs, and it's a cardio work out (so no need to go to the gym). 

I'm about to head off to swimming with my daughter (730am start!). I'll cover more miles in the next hr in the car than a whole week on commuting on the bike, so am no anti car fanatic.

However for the weekday city commute, why do most people refuse to consider using anything else but their cars?? I just don't get it??

Thanks it's an interesting article. It doesn't capture the whole rationale though and may well not be the underlying reason for the majority. My circumstances are different to yours. I live inthe countryside and my commute is a 7 mile drive to the station, 40 minute train journey then 10 mins walking, half hour tube then another 10 mins walking. Driving to the station is a necessity especially in inclement weather and here's the first gripe. Unlike the few that do cycle to the station, I would not wish to sit in my sweaty and for some people who use the same shall we say "gym kit" for several days, smelly state in my lycra, next to others on the train that would be affected by it. I find it offensive and move if someone like that sits next to me.

For me the basic reason I want cyclists to cycle on the left as far as practically possible, it that they hold me up. I therefore have to give up my time to allow for them. If they made an effort not to hold me up then that would be appreciated. The problem is, many do not, especially when cycling in pairs or more. Why they cant cycle one behind the other to show consideration is beyond me and I believe giving such people the "right" to do so in any circumstance where they travel at a lesser speed than other traffic, say on a road with the national speed limit, goes against common courtesy. Of course where there is no traffic I have no problem, and if on hearing a motorised vehicles approach they moved into single file whether traffic was coming the other way or not everything would be fine but they don't. At the weekend especially it seems my time is usurped by these selfish individuals and they think they have the right to do so. This is wrong.

The next thing that I find unacceptable is that modern technology has provided us with cycling lamps that are as bright if not brighter than car headlamps. The trouble is neither the government or for the most case cyclists themselves realise how bright and dazzling they are. They are so bad that when walking in London as a pedestrian in winter I am often dazzled by an approaching bicycle - not cars or buses though. I do not understand why any cyclist that uses a light would not make at least a small effort to point the device down so it doesn't dazzle to the maximum effect or why the government has not stepped in to ensure bicyles use directed lighting. Worst seem to be the pulsing led's. Even used as rear lights they are brighter than a cars fog lamps. Why is it illegal for cars to dazzle others with fog lamps when there is no fog but bicycles can do it any time through ignorance. 

So you see my objection is not that others are "free riding". I actually don't believe they are. My objection is that those on bicycles often show no consideration for other road users. Zebra crossings? This inconveniences others, makes them late and is dangerous. That is the basis for my issues with cyclists. Cycling on the left in most situations would be an easy fix to the main issue.

[ganzoom]

4 hours ago, mdj8 said:

Thanks it's an interesting article. It doesn't capture the whole rationale though and may well not be the underlying reason for the majority.

Actually everything you are complaining about and the 'rationale' behind those complaints is exactly what the article described, essentially its human psychology which cannot be changed.

I actually took the chance to go on a 2hr ride to run some errands instead of using the car....what was really interesting was when I got home and saw the cars parked up (The Lexus + Tesla cost us in total £105K post tax pay to buy), I realised actually its the pedal bikes I own which gives me so much more enjoyment on the roads, getting from A to B. 

So actually I take back what I said about not been anti-car fanatic, I may not be anti-car, but I certainly don't find cars that relevant any more in-terms of bringing enjoyment. Given the choice, I would take any of the pedal bikes I own for a trip versus the cars. 

 

[mdj8]

Actually that is not correct. The article starts with broad statements about moral order which could be considered to be tangentally related to my complaints but quickly and mainly focuses on “free rider” theory, citing and detailing a paper by  Fehr and Gachter. As I clearly state “my objection is not that others are "free riding". I actually don't believe they are”. My issue is mutual consideration.  Anyway even though you say human psychology cannot be changed we are all different so that must mean that various traits are present to a greater or lesser degree in all of us. This is also evidenced by the completely irrelevant wealth boast and confirmatory materialistic pictures. No one has done anything similar on the thread so far so I wonder what brought that about. In case you were interested how that appears to me at least, I would think the guy with the medallion would be the sort to do that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rVV7rUv3p4

 

[Malc]

37 minutes ago, mdj8 said:

the completely irrelevant wealth boast and confirmatory materialistic pictures.

oh my ..... then I shan't display my comparative lack of wealth with unmaterialistic pictures showing my ancient cars and my ancient house with my ancient, well antique are some, furnishings  ................. it really is all irrelevant  .............. and quite irreverent to boast too methinks of both materialistic and pauperish offerings 

.......... seriously tho' Matthew I do quite concur with much of what you say  ................  and commiserate with Gang for having the mindset so often portrayed herein .......  jeez what to have, blimey a Tesla , wow, I'm impressed 

Reading Musk is worth a staggering £178bn at the last count and is going to change the world ....  again ....  with his twittish purchase of Twitter .......... does he naturally inherit Trump too in his purchase I wonder .......... like souls eh ! 

Malc

[First_Lexus]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Actually everything you are complaining about and the 'rationale' behind those complaints is exactly what the article described, essentially its human psychology which cannot be changed.

I actually took the chance to go on a 2hr ride to run some errands instead of using the car....what was really interesting was when I got home and saw the cars parked up (The Lexus + Tesla cost us in total £105K post tax pay to buy), I realised actually its the pedal bikes I own which gives me so much more enjoyment on the roads, getting from A to B. 

So actually I take back what I said about not been anti-car fanatic, I may not be anti-car, but I certainly don't find cars that relevant any more in-terms of bringing enjoyment. Given the choice, I would take any of the pedal bikes I own for a trip versus the cars. 

 

Am I the only person here who is concerned that the bicycle could fall and scratch the car? Personally I tend to enforce an exclusion zone…😆

[ganzoom]

1 minute ago, First_Lexus said:

Am I the only person here who is concerned that the bicycle could fall and scratch the car? Personally I tend to enforce an exclusion zone…😆

I consider the Tesla to be the family 'hack', it gets washed once in 6 months, and literally everything gets throw in it.

Somepeople here seem to get hung up on stuff and cost? I buy what I enjoy/want, and not what other people think. But this thread has made me realise what right now I enjoy most interms of transportation.....and actually this is the most 'fun' thing in the garage. It's makes a Brompton look 'normal' and the OP would be glad to hear I only use it on cycle paths as its too slow for the real roads :).

[royoftherovers]

12 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Am I the only person here who is concerned that the bicycle could fall and scratch the car? Personally I tend to enforce an exclusion zone…😆

Take it from me Ed, his bikes are worth a small fortune. He has considerable means.

[First_Lexus]

6 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Take it from me Ed, his bikes are worth a small fortune. He has considerable means.

Reminds me of an old joke. 

“I met this girl, and told her I had a small fortune. She asked me how I made it…

So, I told her. I started with a large fortune and invested it badly…”

I’ll get my coat. 🙄

[ganzoom]

24 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Take it from me Ed, his bikes are worth a small fortune. He has considerable means.

Humm really, do you want to guess how much my bikes are worth. I give you some clues, one was off gumtree, one is over 10 years old, and my commuter bike is from Halfords :).

[dutchie01]

Why do people not use bikes for commuting?

Maybe i am the wrong person to answer but i just hate physical exercise, dont do sports, dont visit the gym go shopping with the car that i prefer to park inside the supermarket in between the meat and the bread department, have not used public transports since i had my drivers licence, hate beeing in buses, trains, trams, if it rains i dont fancy leave the house. I prefer to be in the privacy of my own moving livingroom. I have heating, aircon, am dry, can close the doors so nobody can enter and it can reach blistering speeds. You might have guessed it but i dont even own a bike..

Do i hate bicycles or cyclists? of course not! Each to their own. I do not understand the prices of todays bikes though, thousands of Euros without problem. I would always buy a car for that!

[doog442]

32 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

I do not understand the prices of todays bikes though, thousands of Euros without problem. I would always buy a car for that!

As @ganzoom points out bicycles don't have to cost that much. As with everything from toasters to cars you can spend as little or much as your like.  

I toured Europe on an old bicycle for a month, it cost me £250 to 'do it up' and its still going strong 7 years later. My most expensive and best bicycle was £1000 a decade ago. Thats part of the charm.

Your view on physical exercise is interesting. You've demonstrated you're not anti cyclist , however I can't help but think that many who are anti cyclist do make lifestyle choices that influence their views. 

[doog442]

9 hours ago, Moleman said:

I will try one more time.

In any debate, one side is unlikely to be completely right and the other side completely wrong. I do not question your experiences, why do you question those of others?

In my opinion your responses seek to prove you are right and everyone else is wrong. That is I believe obsessive behaviour. I of course could be completely wrong, but your posts do not help you.

Take a step back and relax, please.

Maurice, I think for the benefit of the forum it might be a decent idea to ignore each others views on this subject, we are it appears at an impasse. Not so elsewhere where I value your contributions.