Not entirely complimentary review

[peniole]

I don't think I saw anyone on this thread call you a "heretic", and in quotes no less. Are we being a bit defensive now? 😭 (insert baby waaa noise)

Your arguments are a bit "erratic", and you don't carefully read, or perhaps misread what has been said. Like the whole "why don't you admit it" nonsense.

[Phil xxkr]

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Spot on. I drive a Lexus because it’s beautifully made and comfortable. I could drive a BMW if I wanted something more entertaining to drive (albeit that would be useless for me as I’m not that kind of driver, but you know what I mean). I could have chosen a Mercedes as I love their new interiors and - I have to confess - their image. I could also have bought an Audi if I was a middle-management photocopier salesman from Telford…

There are many reasons why people choose what they choose to drive. Most, if not all, are a compromise of some sort. I think the article was a pretty fair reflection of why most of us bought a Lexus.

Hold on a minute Ed, what's wrong with Telford? Named after one of the greatest industrial figures in English history. I see you come from Berk - shire 😅

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, peniole said:

I don't think I saw anyone on this thread call you a "heretic", and in quotes no less. Are we being a bit defensive now? 😭 (insert baby waaa noise)

No, I don't think either, but that is same ideology - "we don't want truth, we don't want facts, we don't want objective stats, we don't want opinions which differs from ours, we only want to sit in our little cult and flatter each other about how amazing our cars are, if we ignore all different cars which may be better in their won way... and if anyone comes as says that perhaps our cars are not the best handling or not exciting... even if we admit to it ourselves, then they are not welcome". 

Not to mention that there were several people who complained and wanted me banned from the forum, just because I said that 300h is objectively not fast car, they were so much hurt by my opinion. So it isn't even just debate, they do go behind the scenes and (insert baby waaa noise) to the site administration 😅

[peniole]

Seriously, you think people on here are petty enough to get you banned over this thread? Just wow...

36 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

300h is objectively not fast car

it isn't, 8.9s to 62mph doesn't exactly set your pants on fire

36 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

we don't want opinions which differs from ours

you might have that backwards, at least from my perspective

[AJ500]

As a matter of interest Linas.Where can you go and get a 2 year old LC500 in the UK for £50k and 12k miles?Thats a 2020 model.More like late 60s or above.

A J.

[paulrnx]

I thought it was a pretty fair review. Nothing in there that would have offended me even if I owned an ES. Each to their own really.

[Linas.P]

10 minutes ago, AJ500 said:

As a matter of interest Linas.Where can you go and get a 2 year old LC500 in the UK for £50k and 12k miles?Thats a 2020 model.More like late 60s or above.

A J.

Sorry, my comment is 2 years too late. It was the case in 2020, for 2018 car with nearly no miles and even as low as £44k, but it seems like two last years did not happen. So perhaps now the cars which two years ago were 2 years old, are now 4 years old and 50k now. And like wise I still look into 2018 cars as if they are just 2 years old.

Anyhow that does not change my opinion in the slightest - I would get older LC or RC-F over brand spanking new ES, because they are just way better cars which I would enjoy driving.

[Arnett]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

  I would get older LC or RC-F over brand spanking new ES, because they are just way better cars 

10000%. 

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Arnett said:

10000%. 

Forgotten to add GS-F as well on can literally get GS-F for same price as new ES, because they are ~£40k when one comes on sale.

[doog442]

1 minute ago, Arnett said:

10000%. 

Which really is immaterial in the big scheme of things on this thread. For example your average ES owner probably wants 4 doors, more practicality, lower VED , lower Insurance, bigger bootspace etc. These cars are chalk and cheese, I appreciate it wasn't you but how did an LC or RCF get into this debate. They don't belong on the same discussion other than a non ES owner yet again throwing a curve ball into the thread to try and prove a point. 

The OP's opening gambit was "Hello ESers "  .... not "Hello TossErs" (not aimed at you Arnett) 

[ColinBarber]

14 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I would get older LC or RC-F over brand spanking new ES, because they are just way better cars which I would enjoy driving.

and many people wouldn't want the running costs, noise, impracticality, firm ride or attracting boy racers of an LC or F and would choose the ES.

[Linas.P]

12 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

and many people wouldn't want the running costs, noise, impracticality, firm ride or attracting boy racers of an LC or F and would choose the ES.

And that is fair choice, but then why get upset about completely fair review which just points out exactly that - "ES not for people who value fast car and who instead would get something more practical".

[e-yes]

25 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 - "ES not for people who value fast car and who instead would get something more practical".

Yes but that's exactly where the problem is. That is not what was said or concluded. It ended on a rather sarcastic note.

Let's just try this. How about pointing out the glaring mistakes in that review and using those to make a sarcastic conclusion about that review itself ? Will that work ?

• Which Clarkson describes as a “Prius in a businessman suit”.
  • Toyota Prius is not even on the same platform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_New_Global_Architecture#GA-K) 
• A perfect car for a time in which speed, handling and performance seem to be quite out of fashion.
  • Based on what is being argued speed, handling and performance are indeed very much in fashion. Why was such broad sweeping statement used ? It is derogatory and people will get protective of their purchase decision.
• Powering the hybrid ES is a 2.5-litre turbocharged four-cylinder petrol engine mated to an electric motor
  • What a load of horse dung that above statement was ? NA Engine, TWO Electric motors. Torque-Limited Coupling eCVT is what that setup actually is and not what the reviewer "informed" the audience to be.
• It’s an engine designed to be efficient, not powerful, and that … is seemingly what the world wants. Especially if it’s allied to an electric motor to create a ‘hybrid’.
  • In what universe is 215ps and 300+ Nm of Torque not powerful ? Reviewers sing praises of the VAG Group 2l Diesel which puts out 190ps and 400Nm of Torque ? The ES300h is a Petrol engine, capable of hauling along a near 2 tonne land yacht and still manage 50mpg easily.. on PETROL !
• You put your foot down and there’s nothing more than a faint buzz as the car starts to pick up speed. And some time later you’ll notice, if you’re paying attention, that the speedometer readout has changed. You were doing 50 and now you’re doing 51.
  • Note the sarcasm and the inaccuracy in that statement ? That nowhere near is close to how my ES behaves. Was he driving the same car OR Lexus provided him with a deliberately crippled engine ?

So based on all of the above, I will forego any objective conclusions to be made from that "review" and will actually feel offended because all that is a careless, sarcastic, subjective opinion piece.

That's what is causing all the defensive behaviour from the ES owners.

Had the review intended to be objective, I am sure people who chose a car such as the ES would welcome that review.

What do think 🙂 ?

--E

[doog442]

People get upset because its an ES sub forum and they more than likely own an ES. Most people like to think they've made the right choice and probably come here to share in their enjoyment.

I appreciate many, if not most Clarkson reviews will invite comment , debate and a bit of controversy however getting it rammed down your throat from non owners would more than likely go down like a lead balloon on any forum anywhere on the planet . I'm amazed the response has been so civil but that's a reflection on the forum and probably why it happens again and again and again .

Has Doug DeMuro reviewed it yet 

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, e-yes said:

Yes but that's exactly where the problem is. That is not what was said or concluded. It ended on a rather sarcastic note.

Let's just try this. How about pointing out the glaring mistakes in that review and using those to make a sarcastic conclusion about that review itself ? Will that work ?

• Which Clarkson describes as a “Prius in a businessman suit”.
  • Toyota Prius is not even on the same platform (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_New_Global_Architecture#GA-K) 
• A perfect car for a time in which speed, handling and performance seem to be quite out of fashion.
  • Based on what is being argued speed, handling and performance are indeed very much in fashion. Why was such broad sweeping statement used ? It is derogatory and people will get protective of their purchase decision.
• Powering the hybrid ES is a 2.5-litre turbocharged four-cylinder petrol engine mated to an electric motor
  • What a load of horse dung that above statement was ? NA Engine, TWO Electric motors. Torque-Limited Coupling eCVT is what that setup actually is and not what the reviewer "informed" the audience to be.
• It’s an engine designed to be efficient, not powerful, and that … is seemingly what the world wants. Especially if it’s allied to an electric motor to create a ‘hybrid’.
  • In what universe is 215ps and 300+ Nm of Torque not powerful ? Reviewers sing praises of the VAG Group 2l Diesel which puts out 190ps and 400Nm of Torque ? The ES300h is a Petrol engine, capable of hauling along a near 2 tonne land yacht and still manage 50mpg easily.. on PETROL !
• You put your foot down and there’s nothing more than a faint buzz as the car starts to pick up speed. And some time later you’ll notice, if you’re paying attention, that the speedometer readout has changed. You were doing 50 and now you’re doing 51.
  • Note the sarcasm and the inaccuracy in that statement ? That nowhere near is close to how my ES behaves. Was he driving the same car OR Lexus provided him with a deliberately crippled engine ?

So based on all of the above, I will forego any objective conclusions to be made from that "review" and will actually feel offended because all that is a careless, sarcastic, subjective opinion piece.

That's what is causing all the defensive behaviour from the ES owners.

Had the review intended to be objective, I am sure people who chose a car such as the ES would welcome that review.

What do think 🙂 ?

--E

I agree Clarkson takes some artistic liberties and some of the statements are hyperbolic or exaggerated to make the article more enjoyable to read... funny enough this is exactly how like to describe things and get slacked for it a lot. For example I called IS300h sluggish and everyone jumped to "correct" me. 

• Prius in a businessman suit - that simply means that cars was not designed for handling and performance, but to be reliable, dependable and efficient, like Prius just with more fancy looking body. Nobody cares what platform it is one, but that is very good way of conveying the feeling... how the car feels to drive. I think the comment is spot on. 
• Absolutely not, ecomentalists considers even smallest speeding as massive crim and never-ending cameras are blocking all the roads. Here he explains that point - that it used to be "cool" to say how fast is your car and what speed you were doing another day. Now it is just not fashionable... now you may impress people more by claiming that your car is carbon neutral and that your seats are made from recycled plastic bags (that is my exaggeration for Tahara and Alcantara).
• This is indeed wrong, but because I don't have access to original article I don't know if it was Clarkson who made mistake or it was driving.co.uk... because this statement is not quoted, so it might be their mistake. As for the engine being made for efficiency that is fact, it is lazy engine, not rewarding to push and does not encourage you to push the car. As well it does not make 215hp, it makes 176hp and for 2.5L engine that is actually horrible. It is specifically detuned for high thermal efficiency and for hybrid use. So this statement again sport on - designed for efficiency and not power. And your example further proves the point - you focus on MPG, but not the acceleration other person may be happy with 32MPG, but V8 powering rear wheels (nothing wrong, just proves what you care about).
• This is exaggeration, but the point is the same - car is not designed to be agile or responsive and it foregoes that for efficiency and comfort. As well I may not be exact MPH, but it may be how the car feels - it does not feel like it is pushing you back to the seat or that you are accelerating at all. It is comfortable.

So it wasn't dry and "documentary" review, it was piece of opinion which nicely tied in ES with current affairs in the world, where it is "wrong" to have fast, loud and exciting car. Nowadays people instead of being excited by seeing such car may instead scratch your paint or put a nail under your tyres - because they feel you are showing off.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

For example I called IS300h sluggish and everyone jumped to "correct" me. 

Bit selective there, you also said 32-38 mpg and car produces 185 bhp refusing to back down when “actual” owners disagreed with you

39 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

As well it does not make 215hp, it makes 176hp and for 2.5L engine that is actually horrible.

Yes but the car makes 215 so quoting 176 is irrelevant 

[Guest]

For what it’s worth I have seen quite a few complimentary reviews of the ES but at the end of the day I think it’s a great car, no complaints from me up to now, well built, comfortable with a bit of Lexus luxury. 

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Derant said:

Bit selective there, you also said 32-38 mpg and car produces 185 bhp refusing to back down when “actual” owners disagreed with you

Yes but the car makes 215 so quoting 176 is irrelevant 

Yes proven by personal experience and by long list of owners who track they MPG in apps like fuelly. But obviously, you right because you always get 50MPG, so that must be right...

What car makes is mystery, but it doesn't translate into acceleration, so that is irrelevant. How Lexus came-up with 215HP and when car makes it is not clear either. Besides this power would be limited for short burst of speed provided you have juice in the Battery, if you want to blast thought scenic road, there would be no more electric assistance left after few miles when tiny Battery would get depleted. All in all neither IS300h, nor ES300h doesn't drive like 200hp+/300nm+ cars. They may make that power in some specific test, but it does not translate into driving experience.

[peniole]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

if you want to blast thought scenic road, there would be no more electric assistance left after few miles when tiny battery would get depleted. All in all neither IS300h, nor ES300h doesn't drive like 200hp+/300nm+ cars.

and you would know this how? Have you owned either? Have you driven either, other than for a, short by comparison, test drive? Have you lived with either on a daily basis?

Now who's generalizing their limited "personal experience"?

In my limited 7k miles experience with the car on a daily basis since last June, power delivery has always been linear with no sudden surges of power or lack thereof. But then that's my limited personal experience with the car I own.

Also, fixed your double negative there. Unless you meant that they do drive like 215/300 cars.

[Mincey]

15 hours ago, PeteTP said:

Perhaps this is poppycock but……I’m not so sure that folk do look at an ES - unless they’re maybe Lexus owners/supporters. 

 

I think Colin was referring to "admiring glances", of which Betsy has had many!

[Moleman]

1 minute ago, Mincey said:

I think Colin was referring to "admiring glances", of which Betsy has had many!

Is it just Betsy that gets the "admiring glances"? 😁

[Mincey]

1 minute ago, Moleman said:

Is it just Betsy that gets the "admiring glances"? 😁

I'd not thought of that!

[Shahpor]

15 hours ago, peniole said:

Seriously, you think people on here are petty enough to get you banned over this thread? Just wow...

It wasn't this thread, and yes, I believe there was an attempt at a ban.

It is always fun when Linas gets involved in a thread 🙂

As for the rest, @doog442 is right, posting this in the ES thread was always going to provoke a certain response, which certainly isn't to imply that it shouldn't have been posted.

No owner is going to be happy to have their choice of car criticized, but that doesn't necessarily make the criticism wrong.  At some point, you just need to let it go and accept that there is no such thing as the perfect car. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

and you would know this how? Have you owned either? Have you driven either, other than for a, short by comparison, test drive? Have you lived with either on a daily basis?

Now who's generalizing their limited "personal experience"?

In my limited 7k miles experience with the car on a daily basis since last June, power delivery has always been linear with no sudden surges of power or lack thereof. But then that's my limited personal experience with the car I own.

Also, fixed your double negative there. Unless you meant that they do drive like 215/300 cars.

Not owned, but I had like 5 different IS300h for a day as courtesy car over the years - total mileage combined... I reckon maybe 600-800miles, I had RC300h for 24h test drive where I drove ~600miles and then for weekend - 1000+ miles travelled, I had NX300h for nearly 8 days, again as courtesy car when my RC was fixed under warranty, but didn't do much miles - maybe ~350 as it was covid lockdown, as for ES - I only drove it like 10 miles around dealership when it launched. 

Is that enough experience to to form an opinion? As well driving IS200t with IS300h and IS250 back-to-back and RC300h with IS250 back-to-back... IS250 has ~204HP and 242NM and at any given point, speed and situation it feels more powerful car and it definitely accelerates quicker. 200t pull like a train from 30MPH, but really struggles from the start, IS300h is kind of opposite - it jumps from stand still, but only up-to 5... maybe 10MPH. 

Now for sure I have not taken either on dyno or anything to compare, so be it anecdotal evidence of my bum, but it is sub-200HP car. 185HP sounds about right... 

[e-yes]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

What car makes is mystery, but it doesn't translate into acceleration, so that is irrelevant. How Lexus came-up with 215HP and when car makes it is not clear either. Besides this power would be limited for short burst of speed provided you have juice in the battery, if you want to blast thought scenic road, there would be no more electric assistance left after few miles when tiny battery would get depleted. All in all neither IS300h, nor ES300h doesn't drive like 200hp+/300nm+ cars. They may make that power in some specific test, but it does not translate into driving experience.

Not sure how you deduced that. Comparing with the cars which had similar quoted output numbers, it does translate into accelerations which are not far off from each other. Well... within about 1.5s of each other, Lexus quote the slowest 0-62 but we already know that. (Although, one reviewer has clocked 0-60mph of 7.4s FWIW). When I compared the driving experience I remember from the 2.0 TDI A6 (190ps/400Nm), it is not all that different and comes with less drama (aka Turbo Lag) when there is a need for setting off rapidly. Also, kick downs while moving are much pleasant no less powerful than the A6. I prefer the way ES delivers (ie without valve rattle)

if you want to blast thought scenic road, there would be no more electric assistance left after few miles when tiny Battery would get depleted

Again, that is incorrect. That is not how it works. How do you blast through on scenic road ? Flat out, never easing off the throttle, power sliding into curves, never breaking, never carrying the momentum ?

On the hybrid system

• Battery gets charged when I ease off the throttle.
• Battery gets charged when I use the breaks.

I think you are just carrying this argument for the sake of argument and is getting pointless to engage anymore !

The point (at least for me) was that reviewers in U.K. exaggerate to a dramatic extent the negatives of the ES where as very similar negatives on the German brands are presented in a different light.