Not entirely complimentary review

[First_Lexus]

5 minutes ago, george72 said:

I will probably get slated for this, but on the whole the reviews are not widely inaccurate really. Yes, its safe, reliable and roomy but it is also boring and does not drive as well as a BMW 5 series (my last car was a BMW 530). And yes, compared to my BMW it does drive a bit like a Prius in a suit (My wife has a 2017 Prius). At at this price point, i am happy with the compromise. 

Spot on. I drive a Lexus because it’s beautifully made and comfortable. I could drive a BMW if I wanted something more entertaining to drive (albeit that would be useless for me as I’m not that kind of driver, but you know what I mean). I could have chosen a Mercedes as I love their new interiors and - I have to confess - their image. I could also have bought an Audi if I was a middle-management photocopier salesman from Telford…

There are many reasons why people choose what they choose to drive. Most, if not all, are a compromise of some sort. I think the article was a pretty fair reflection of why most of us bought a Lexus.

[peniole]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

There is not such thing as "handling at speed limit".

Yes there is when you have a 50MPH speed limit and eveyone slows down coming to a sweeping bend and you don't have to. Trying to put handling experience into a 20MPH speed limit perspective is an excercise in reductio ad absurdum.

Yes I've taken it into the lake country and to single track roads that lead up there at 60MPH, and it handled predictably and competently at the speed limit, no surprises. Was it as enjoyable as a C6, no.

What I'm trying to say is, we drive in the real world, not some theoretical track. For real world driving, it sets an excellent compromise between handling and comfort.

[e-yes]

FWIW -- 

Skip to 13:05.

I am not a race car driver however I know how a BMW drives (had one), how a Mazda 6 and MX-5 drive, how an A6 (C7 gen) drives. Have taken a Mustang (and a Toyota Sienna) down (and back up) the Pacific Coastal and have also driven the Hwy 33 (although in a Jetta 😞 ) and then a Ford Fusion (Mondeo) along the Silverado Trail (If all that experience means anything at all 🙂 ) Anything else I did was in the low speed limits back country roads or highways between Page and Sedona in Arizona in an SUV so I will rule that out.

I don't think ES is a below average handling car. Try pushing it. I was pleasantly surprised. The variable velocity valve damper setup even in the base ES works surprisingly well (I think Honda have something very similar as well). I am pretty sure the C7 A6 I had will give up the grip (if breaks are not applied in time) where ES will manage to keep everything under control. ES body is to me definitely tighter (in terms of handling/body roll) than the A6 I had. A6 had stiffer/number suspension (S-Line) and steering.

Again, not a race driver but I think it's better to have softer damping and tight body rather than wonky body + stiff suspension.

The ES has soft suspension (but the variable velocity valve setup helps as it reacts to sudden planar changes and stiffens up and this is even on the base ES, you don't need the F-Sport setup for that) but very tight body and that's what makes it very pleasant and confident to drive. (As in, my experience matches what Ryan is saying above in that video)

However, the Mazda 6 was a sweeter ride. Hard to imagine they have been able to tune the ride and chases the way it is at that price point on a FWD car. BMW I had was better, but not by a lot and for a while I was on RFTs , so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A BMW (standard shock/damper arrangement) will be maybe somewhat better (ie less understeer) but ... to each his own 🙂 

Just my $0.02

Cheers,

--E

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, peniole said:

Yes there is when you have a 50MPH speed limit and eveyone slows down coming to a sweeping bend and you don't have to. Trying to put handling experience into a 20MPH speed limit perspective is an excercise in reductio ad absurdum.

Ok fair enough, but you do agree that Porsche 911 can do the same bend at 120MPH? That maybe BMW 530e can do it at 90MPH as well? So there you have it - journalists have to compare cars handling somehow. They don't say you have to take the bend at 120MPH and I don't, that would be illegal, but it is still fact that ES would handle worse than other "cars in it's segment" in such situation (to begin with it would not be able to even reach 120MPH). So there simply is car ranking from best handling to worst handling, as it happens Lexus ES300h for the 2019 model in £40k price range handles worse than most comparable cars Lexus chosen to compare itself with.

Nobody says it is not safe to drive, or that you going to understeer into the ditch at 50MPH. And as for other slowing down where you don't... maybe they are incompetent drivers, or maybe they are 15 years old car, or maybe their tyres are poor, or maybe they are in econo-box with skinny tyres. I am sure bran new Lexus on brand new tyres should not have issue taking a bend at 50MPH, that is just way too low bar for any new luxury car. And where my example may be reductio ad absurdum, then you decided to constrict yourself to arbitrary limit to prove the point - so it is both cherry picking and fallacy defines fallacy.

2 minutes ago, e-yes said:

However, the Mazda 6 was a sweeter ride. Hard to imagine they have been able to tune the ride and chases the way it is at that price point on a FWD car. BMW I had was better, but not by a lot and for a while I was on RFTs , so.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A BMW (standard shock/damper arrangement) will be maybe somewhat better (ie less understeer) but ... to each his own 🙂 

And I agree with you, but then doesn't it make ES "below" average? If Mazda 6 does it better being whole segment and price point below ES? I have no doubt most of BMW handle better as well. And let's not forget Lexus wrongly advertised ES as 5-Series competitor. Would they have advertised it as VW Arteon competitor, maybe it would handle better and thus would be above average?

Remember that nothing exists in isolation. I am sure that if ES would be single car in the world, then it would be best handling car, but it isn't and as long as there are cars handling better, it can't be best. 

[peniole]

You'll notice I included two examples at 50 and 60, which are the limits most twisty roads in the UK are set at. Also see the post above from @e-yes

[e-yes]

7 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And I agree with you, but then doesn't it make ES "below" average?

Fraction of a standard deviation below average. And that is the issue I have U.K. reviewers of ES. They make the "bad" sound worse than it is on the ES but make the "good" sound better than it is on the Germans. That is unfair.

Given the choice (comparing all parameters) to daily drive a BMW, Mazda 6 or ES, I will prefer to be in the ES.

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, peniole said:

You'll notice I included two examples at 50 and 60, which are the limits most twisty roads in the UK are set at. Also see the post above from @e-yes

What does that change? 

You have decided that in real driving conditions you do, the ES provides you with reasonable compromise between handling can comfort. That may be true to you, actually I am sure it is true to you. But this is not about you... it is about how the car stacks against other cars in the market. When it comes to reliability we know how it stacks - it is pretty much the best and it seems you are happy to take this. But in handling (forget about comfort or what you do) it is not the best - why can't you just admit it?

[peniole]

Didn't I just say as much, I literally said if I were on a track I'll take a C6, thank you?! How is that not clear?

It seems you really hate the ES.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, e-yes said:

Fraction of a standard deviation below average. And that is the issue I have U.K. reviewers of ES. They make the "bad" sound worse than it is on the ES but make the "good" sound better than it is on the Germans. That is unfair.

Given the choice (comparing all parameters) to daily drive a BMW, Mazda 6 or ES, I will prefer to be in the ES.

Maybe they feel handling is more important in their value scales? I do... 

I would never prefer ES over anything comparable, for me it is just dull drive and mediocre handling... and that is important for me. That does not mean ES is bad car, it just means exactly what was said in review - "car for person who doesn't value speed, acceleration, handling as much". 

[Mincey]

3 minutes ago, peniole said:

Didn't I just say as much, I literally said if I were on a track I'll take a C6, thank you?! How is that not clear?

It seems you really hate the ES.

And the IS.

[Linas.P]

7 minutes ago, peniole said:

Didn't I just say as much, I literally said if I were on a track I'll take a C6, thank you?! How is that not clear?

Again that is about you. But maybe I would prefer something else even on the road? Is that not valid? Are there not car which are more exciting to drive even on the roads? As well you don't even need to drive fast for it to be exciting... we don't need to go far say LC500. You can so speed limit, but just press accelerator on the slip road before joining the motorway and listen to V8... is that not more exciting?

Obviously the question is - does that justify the price? Well.. maybe not for you, but maybe it does for me. As besides... again cars don't exist in vacuum. I can get 2 years old LC500 with 12k miles which I consider "new car" for jut £50k and in my mind that is price well worth paying over £40k and what I get in ES. More I can get 2016 RC-F for £30k and be just excited. 

I just don't understand insistence that ES300h has absolutely no negatives, even in case where you don't find them important to you.

And I don't hate it - I just don't enjoy it and Clarkson very well explains why. Because I am person who cares "about speed handling.... etc". Same applies to IS300h... engine is just not exciting. 

[peniole]

Don't cloud the issue, you said

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

why can't you just admit it?

which is exactly what I said above.

All cars have negatives and positives. No-one is saying it has no negative. This is one that I found that balances those in a manner that works for me. Would I like it to handle like a C6 while keeping its comfort level, and pin me back into my seat when I hit the gas pedal while giving me an american V8 burble and at the same time getting a 60+MPG return? Sure who wouldn't. That car sadly doesn't exist.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, peniole said:

Don't cloud the issue, you said

which is exactly what I said above.

All cars have negatives and positives. No-one is saying it has no negative. This is one that I found that balances those in a manner that works for me. Would I like it to handle like a C6 while keeping its comfort level, and pin me back into my seat when I hit the gas pedal while giving me an american V8 burble and at the same time getting a 60+MPG return? Sure who wouldn't. That car sadly doesn't exist.

Ok then... so what is wrong with the review? It just points out the same thing, that this car has positives and negatives... and it seems to math the profile of the driver you are. Why it is being marked as negative, just for saying same things? 

[dutchie01]

1 hour ago, e-yes said:

How many popular YouTube reviewers from U.K. (can get into naming names but lets leave that out) have given a fair review to the ES ?

I guess you have to ask how many of them are independent in what they make. The German Big Three are spending millions in marketing and they do influence articles by " supporting" reviews sometimes lending Expensive models like the BMW 850M for months or inviting car journos to a new model launch on a sunny location, wine and dine, nice hotels all fully paid plus detailed press packs and gifts. Then a 4 hrs drive with the new car and an article will be typed up. Difficult to write a negative report on that car then.. There are some independent automotive journalists out there like savagegeese, but most of them just don't have the time to evaluate a car thoroughly. 7 minute clip or 1500 words and need it by Wednesday. So here you have the " Terrible whine of the gearbox ( look into camera with droopy face)", or the " dull and fwd handling ( take corner too fast noise from tires look into camera droopy face) type of thing. You get to know a car owning it for weeks and in daily traffic the car performs well in my opinion. I drove one for a day and it just glides through traffic in silence. I did not buy it as i don't like the styling, the proportions, it did not work for me. Just go on your own opinion and who does give a #### what a you tuber or self declared car journalist thinks!    

[First_Lexus]

 

This is worth a watch. Always found Johnny Smith entertaining, and I think this - although not a review as such - sums up the ES and Lexus in general. Mmmm, comfy!

[Linas.P]

36 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

I guess you have to ask how many of them are independent in what they make. 

Are you suggesting Clarkson is paid to be negative about Lexus, or not paid to be positive?

I thought his review was insightful and touches on much wider issue (or you may call it reality) that car is no longer viewed as object which makes you excited, but rather a tool to go from A to B in relative comfort. The speed does not matter, the handling does not matter... because we not allowed to do speed or handling, or sound anymore. Hence SUVs, hence cars like ES, which suites the current reality - doing their job, but not much more.

I don't think there is agenda behind it... but I might be wrong. Although, I don't have any agenda and I have exactly same opinion about it.   

[PeteTP]

🥴wish I hadn’t written anything😟

Seems to have created a bit of a stir. It wasn’t ever intended.

PeteTP

[Arnett]

4 hours ago, 08ISF said:

I wouldn't take too much notice of Clarkson's opinion. He's very entertaining but he's made a career out of rude comments about cars and he's never been complimentary about Lexus' offerings, except the LFA which I think he liked. He even criticised the ISF for having too many gears (rubbish) and a hard ride (fair comment) because he couldn't find anything else to complain about. In fact the whole motoring journalist world is a bit sniffy about Lexus cars, but we know better don't we??

I actually agree with him with a lot of his Lexus comments, also he loved the GSF. Not just the lfa. 

 

 

Personally I doubt I would ever own an ES. I find it it pretty to look at (front) and I love the grille on newer Lexus models especially the F-Sport / F version of it I find the rear of the ES bland almost as if they forgot what they were trying to achieve.  But I just find the hybrid drive system beyond mundane.

 

Lexus called me recently for another new plate launch event and I had 0 interest not even just to go poke my nose about. As a car enthusiast Lexus right now feel a tad lost, its clear with the new model variants and the redesign of "F" they are planning something but what that is has yet to been made aware to the end user. For years they have tried to make the cars more visibly appealing to a broader range of customers which they have done. But the engine is why it still doesn't have the uptake. Europe's forced push of hybrid hasn't worked well. 

[Linas.P]

52 minutes ago, PeteTP said:

🥴wish I hadn’t written anything😟

Seems to have created a bit of a stir. It wasn’t ever intended.

PeteTP

I do think that your title was spot on thought - "Not entirely complimentary review" and indeed it was. I think the discussion is about whenever one should be expecting more complimentary review, or whenever it was unfair. Some people seems feel to be almost entitled to complimentary reviews and I don't think that is the case at all or have any merit. 

As well people seems to take reviews too personally, imagine going to your family member in your new car you are passionate about and them saying "meh... mediocre handling and acceleration, bit boring not exciting". One may say such family member is a bit rude and even thought they don't like the car at least they should pretend and not hurt your morale. And that is true for family member... but I would argue that is not what we should expect from reviews - they should be objective and fair, because if they all complimentary and without pointing out what some may see as an issue, then they fail in sole purpose of the review itself.

Reviews are there not to complement us for our choice, but to tell potential buyers what to expect, what is good and what is not so good. As such potential buyer then could make a decision based on what is important for them.

And I would not call it a "stir" - healthy debate is always good!

[PeteTP]

“…healthy debate is always good!”
 

Yep, 100% agree. 
 

PeteTP

[cdmaskell]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Sadly I don't have access to whole article and I would not pass the judgement on just few quotes from what he said, however from what little I was able to read on Sunday Times without subscription I thought that his comments were spot on and rather fair. He said that unlike other cars this one was not made to shock anyone and it is rather subtle and implied it was not made for "speed and handling and lashings of rip-snorting exhaust noises"... which is exactly the case.

Yes absolutely ES300h is boring car, maybe Clarkson didn't even drive it, but I did and it is exactly that. I was just comfortable, very Toyota like (well made, but not fancy) car with few Lexus badges. There was nothing offensive about it, but nothing exciting either. The next quote - "the perfect car for people who simply don’t care about attributes such as performance, handling and fun" - spot on. If I would be picked-up in one by cab driver I would be very happy, but I wouldn't want to drive one myself... ever. Quite importantly it is not comparable to say BMW 5-Series, because it isn't "sports" saloon, basically take BMW 5-series remove everything sporty and driver focused away, make it 4 times more reliable and you have yourself ES.

The belief that Clarkson hates Lexus comes from TG worst car of the century nomination for SC430. I disagree with them on this one, but I do see where they coming from. The styling at the time was questionable, inclusion of back seats was questionable and for the price it cost new it was bad deal. When we look at it from perspective of 10 years old flagship car which sells under £10k and it is completely reliable with minimal effort - that is good value for money. If one would have been asked to pay like £60k for it new in 2002 - that was definitely poor deal.

Apart of that Clarkson really only ever looked at very few Lexus cars - mocked LS600h for not working self-parking, IS-F review was rather fair from new car buyer perspective, but again didn't aged well just because of Lexus reliability (which new car buyers don't care about), RC-F was Lexus own fault - they advertised it as competitor for M4 (sport coupe), which it wasn't, it was rather competitor for E-Class coupe (GT car). GS-F he liked, just because it was genuinely good alternative to M5. If anything I think it is Lexus fault that by trying to shake off "old-people" brand sticker, they tried too hard to market their cars as sport cars they are not. Same for ES - they try to sell it as alternative to 5-Series, then people and press looks into it as sport-saloon it isn't and they get wrong impression.

Cannot quite get to grips with your threads. You don’t own a Lexus or an ES. You appear to dislike them!  But you contribute to the  Lexus “owners” club, strange, why? Your leanings are to BMW. Fine, embrace that common marque. ES owners don’t really give a damn. They have chosen quality. Not many people look at BMW but certainly look an ES. Are you involved with other owners clubs which you have a pop at. Doubt if it’s BMW. 

[PeteTP]

50 minutes ago, cdmaskell said:

Not many people look at BMW but certainly look an ES

Perhaps this is poppycock but……I’m not so sure that folk do look at an ES - unless they’re maybe Lexus owners/supporters. 

Round my corner of the forest I only ever see one other ES - silver Takumi(?) - driving around. There don’t seem to be many on the road. Even when I went on a recent flit in and around central London, I only clocked two.

As I say, maybe it’s just my natural lack of awareness. Please do speak up and correct me if that is the case.

PeteTP

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cdmaskell said:

Cannot quite get to grips with your threads. You don’t own a Lexus or an ES. You appear to dislike them!  But you contribute to the  Lexus “owners” club, strange, why? Your leanings are to BMW. Fine, embrace that common marque. ES owners don’t really give a damn. They have chosen quality. Not many people look at BMW but certainly look an ES. Are you involved with other owners clubs which you have a pop at. Doubt if it’s BMW. 

The same with the IS, someone asked peoples views on it, despite never owning one he stated what mpg you could expect, how slow it was etc which fair enough it’s an opinion on a forum but he was then disputing what actual IS owners were claiming.

[cdmaskell]

Thank you Derant for jogging my memory about linas p. I remember him well now, when I owned an IS. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, cdmaskell said:

Cannot quite get to grips with your threads. You don’t own a Lexus or an ES. You appear to dislike them!  But you contribute to the  Lexus “owners” club, strange, why? Your leanings are to BMW. Fine, embrace that common marque. ES owners don’t really give a damn. They have chosen quality. Not many people look at BMW but certainly look an ES. Are you involved with other owners clubs which you have a pop at. Doubt if it’s BMW. 

Just shows that you don't know me at all. This is age old silly argument you make - "if you don't own Lexus or ES, then you cannot have valid opinion about them". There were people who said Lexus "200t" engine is great and I just jealous and can't know because I don't own the car with this engine. Sure enough RC200t was exactly as I expected, I actually surprised myself because I had hope that maybe I was wrong and engine can't be that bad... it was.

Just stating the fact and giving example that BMW handles better (among dozen of other cars), doesn't mean that I hate Lexus as a brand. Yes... Lexus as any brand made mistakes, IS220d, no IS350/RC350... discontinuing GS/IS in favour of ES, which I consider overall inferior car because it is FWD and I consider FWD inferior when it comes to handling and handling being important for me that is dead sentence for car. So I just pointing out that not everything is perfect.

It is funny how some people look at this forum like some sort of "cult" or "fan club" where everyone are fanatic and only ever says positive thing... and if anyone dares point out not so amazing and positive things, then they are branded as "heretics".

33 minutes ago, Derant said:

The same with the IS, someone asked peoples views on it, despite never owning one he stated what mpg you could expect, how slow it was etc which fair enough it’s an opinion on a forum but he was then disputing what actual IS owners were claiming.

Just 300h, not IS overall.