Direction of travel

[Moleman]

2 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

As expected, this is in the news this morning…inevitable really, and probably the only solution to maintain revenue lost.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/108123/uk-road-pricing-plans-gps-tracking-and-pay-you-go-could-replace-fuel-duty-and-ved

 

As many of us on here have been saying, someone is going to have to pick up the bill as you force ICE cars of the road (be careful what you wish for). This will need to happen sooner rather than later. As most people note the current system is unfair towards one group, perhaps now is the time to have an open debate in the Country about what happens next and how any system going forwards could reflect the needs and use of all road users.

An opportunity to get it right this time.

I wonder how green some will wish to remain if they realise they may have to pay for the privilege. 

[wharfhouse]

46 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

As expected, this is in the news this morning…inevitable really, and probably the only solution to maintain revenue lost.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/108123/uk-road-pricing-plans-gps-tracking-and-pay-you-go-could-replace-fuel-duty-and-ved

 

About time too - the idea of taxing petrol/diesel was that in effect you were paying by the mile and for the choice in how big a car/engine you chose. Electric cars still need roads and infrastructure, not to mention contributing to the general coffers, and so pay as you go is the only way forwards now as far as I can see with all fuel duty removed. It should be left though for the driver to still choose how they decide to fuel the car (so leave the choice of whether electric / petrol / diesel etc.) and not have it meddled with distorting the market and personal choice. 

[Phil xxkr]

7 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

About time too - the idea of taxing petrol/diesel was that in effect you were paying by the mile and for the choice in how big a car/engine you chose. Electric cars still need roads and infrastructure, not to mention contributing to the general coffers, and so pay as you go is the only way forwards now as far as I can see with all fuel duty removed. It should be left though for the driver to still choose how they decide to fuel the car (so leave the choice of whether electric / petrol / diesel etc.) and not have it meddled with distorting the market and personal choice. 

Be careful of what you wish for Phil, we still don't know of the unintended consequences. I am still not clear as to why if I drive more I should pay more in the same way as if I earn more I should pay more? If I borrow more my interest rate for example is less not more. If I watch telly for 20 hours a day I pay the same. But what we are witnessing here is an insidious slide towards pay per use in every aspect of our life - a grim prospect. What this means is you will ultimately own nothing and that the state or the corporation will determine what you deserve driven by the idea of are you a good citizen? 

[Moleman]

16 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Be careful of what you wish for Phil, we still don't know of the unintended consequences. I am still not clear as to why if I drive more I should pay more in the same way as if I earn more I should pay more? If I borrow more my interest rate for example is less not more. If I watch telly for 20 hours a day I pay the same. But what we are witnessing here is an insidious slide towards pay per use in every aspect of our life - a grim prospect. What this means is you will ultimately own nothing and that the state or the corporation will determine what you deserve driven by the idea of are you a good citizen? 

I know you are right but somehow an alternative system has got to be found. Why; because we have all become used to using the £35/37Bn that is currently produced by VED. If you take that away and not replace it, we as a society are going to have to make some difficult choices about what happens next and who loses. Do you think we are ready for that!

[Phil xxkr]

38 minutes ago, Moleman said:

I know you are right but somehow an alternative system has got to be found. Why; because we have all become used to using the £35/37Bn that is currently produced by VED. If you take that away and not replace it, we as a society are going to have to make some difficult choices about what happens next and who loses. Do you think we are ready for that!

I can see that things go askew in the fog of figures Maurice. Estimated total tax revenue from all forms for 2022 in the UK will be around 900bn, VED contributes less than 1% or 7bn. Even adding fuel duty amounts to only around 3%. But reading the headlines you would think it's the end of the world. And ICE vehicles including cars, trucks, ships will be around for the foreseeable future so it will never be a zero sum game 😎

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, Phil xxkr said:

Be careful of what you wish for Phil, we still don't know of the unintended consequences. I am still not clear as to why if I drive more I should pay more in the same way as if I earn more I should pay more? If I borrow more my interest rate for example is less not more. If I watch telly for 20 hours a day I pay the same. But what we are witnessing here is an insidious slide towards pay per use in every aspect of our life - a grim prospect. What this means is you will ultimately own nothing and that the state or the corporation will determine what you deserve driven by the idea of are you a good citizen? 

I agree with you to a large extent - tax on cars / petrol / diesel I believe should go into the road infrastructure and not general coffers - the general coffers should be funded by eg PAYE. However given that has not been the case for some time and with the advent of EV we now have a very skewed system with EV owners contributing virtually nothing to the infrastructure they use nor the general coffers. So either the EV "fuel" has to be in some way fairly taxed like petrol / diesel, or we all pay by the mile, or we have a flat rate that everyone pays. One way or another the EVs have to be brought in line to fill the hole. 

[Linas.P]

19 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

I agree with you to a large extent - tax on cars / petrol / diesel I believe should go into the road infrastructure and not general coffers - the general coffers should be funded by eg PAYE. However given that has not been the case for some time and with the advent of EV we now have a very skewed system with EV owners contributing virtually nothing to the infrastructure they use nor the general coffers. So either the EV "fuel" has to be in some way fairly taxed like petrol / diesel, or we all pay by the mile, or we have a flat rate that everyone pays. One way or another the EVs have to be brought in line to fill the hole. 

Don't forget taxing corporations their fair share of taxes. As I have said - only taxing apple, facebook, amazon and microsoft would bring all the lost revenue from VED/Duty.

The VED and duty should priced appropriately to only fund the road infrastructure and this would already have huge benefit for society, because the society as a whole benefits from good roads, but only drivers would pay. So even if we reduce VED and Duty 5 times, it would still be good enough. 

General coffers should be paid by general taxation. It is not like drivers use NHS or schools more. And for that reason I think the fairest tax would be to tax corporations. Employees already pay PAYE and rarely one escapes it, the only group which isn't contributing is the large multinational corps all worth billions and making billions out of us. So it is just about time they pay-up for everything they benefit from in this country - education, healthcare, infrastructure etc. The only reason they making those billions is because they work in the country which is sorted out and good place to do business.

[Phil xxkr]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Don't forget taxing corporations their fair share of taxes. As I have said - only taxing apple, facebook, amazon and microsoft would bring all the lost revenue from VED/Duty.

The VED and duty should priced appropriately to only fund the road infrastructure and this would already have huge benefit for society, because the society as a whole benefits from good roads, but only drivers would pay. So even if we reduce VED and Duty 5 times, it would still be good enough. 

General coffers should be paid by general taxation. It is not like drivers use NHS or schools more. And for that reason I think the fairest tax would be to tax corporations. Employees already pay PAYE and rarely one escapes it, the only group which isn't contributing is the large multinational corps all worth billions and making billions out of us. So it is just about time they pay-up for everything they benefit from in this country - education, healthcare, infrastructure etc. The only reason they making those billions is because they work in the country which is sorted out and good place to do business.

Here we go again 🤯. Let's make corporations the villain in this particular pantomime of life. In ancient Greece Aristophanes was writing comedic acts about exactly the same situation, so even after 2000 + years of twoing and froing nothing has changed. Avarice is a human condition a product of evolution, so unless you believe this can be averted via religious beliefs or similar any talk is just that talk 

[Linas.P]

3 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Here we go again 🤯. Let's make corporations the villain in this particular pantomime of life.

Not making them a villain - just stating the fact that corporate tax in UK is 19%, but in certain cases could be lowered to 10% (for patents and similar). Whereas most of large international corporations pays well below 10% and some even below 1%.

I don't support progressive taxes (i.e. taxing success and hard work), nor I am proposing some silly punitive taxes -I would be completely happy if they would at least pay their due of 19%.

[Phil xxkr]

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Not making them a villain - just stating the fact that corporate tax in UK is 19%, but in certain cases could be lowered to 10% (for patents and similar). Whereas most of large international corporations pays well below 10% and some even below 1%.

I don't support progressive taxes (i.e. taxing success and hard work), nor I am proposing some silly punitive taxes -I would be completely happy if they would at least pay their due of 19%.

I am sure most people will support your position Linas. But they work within the HMRC tax code (longest in the West) so until that is changed it will never happen. I have long advocated the Franchise Royalty model which is paid on top-line revenue and not bottom - line profits. Probably the largest management consultancy firm to UK Government is Mckinsey, and I read last week from a UK company fees income of £740 million it attracted no tax to speak of. Do you think that they may advise a change to the model? 🤔

[Malc]

........... and let's not forget that during this covid time much air travel has been severely curtailed and with it the Govt tax on our airfares revenue just LOST and never to return

Do you know that in many instances the UK Govt tax on your flight ticket is about 50% or so of that cost to you ?

I'm sure someone will check out these figures to determine the revenue lost at this time 

All that's got to be resuscitated somehow too  ..  well it's not just that air tax it's all the " lost "  ATOL CAA fees that the Govt collects from each ticket sold too of course

It's big big figures I'm sure. probably ££billions but I don't know .....  and maybe that's considered to be an airport Runway Tax ..........  that's just upped and runaway 

Maybe one's air travel tax should be upped to compensate for the £££ lost from EV,  VED Road Taxes

Malc

[Phil xxkr]

36 minutes ago, Malc said:

........... and let's not forget that during this covid time much air travel has been severely curtailed and with it the Govt tax on our airfares revenue just LOST and never to return

Do you know that in many instances the UK Govt tax on your flight ticket is about 50% or so of that cost to you ?

I'm sure someone will check out these figures to determine the revenue lost at this time 

All that's got to be resuscitated somehow too  ..  well it's not just that air tax it's all the " lost "  ATOL CAA fees that the Govt collects from each ticket sold too of course

It's big big figures I'm sure. probably ££billions but I don't know .....  and maybe that's considered to be an airport Runway Tax ..........  that's just upped and runaway 

Maybe one's air travel tax should be upped to compensate for the £££ lost from EV,  VED Road Taxes

Malc

Spot-on Malc APD was down £3 billion last year 😎

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

I am sure most people will support your position Linas. But they work within the HMRC tax code (longest in the West) so until that is changed it will never happen. I have long advocated the Franchise Royalty model which is paid on top-line revenue and not bottom - line profits. Probably the largest management consultancy firm to UK Government is Mckinsey, and I read last week from a UK company fees income of £740 million it attracted no tax to speak of. Do you think that they may advise a change to the model? 🤔

I have long said myself that taxation has to change in principle, I am sure we would have different opinion on those said principles. but it seems we agree that current system has to change.

[Phil xxkr]

22 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I have long said myself that taxation has to change in principle, I am sure we would have different opinion on those said principles. but it seems we agree that current system has to change.

Absolutely 👍