Direction of travel

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Simple matter is - history changes depending on who is telling it, I take historic facts and interpret them myself to remove such biases and outright propaganda as best as I can.

History is told by the winner. Why do you think the crown is so rich? Did they dig things out of the ground or just steal them?

Who will win next?

[Linas.P]

  

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

History is told by the winner.

45 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

it's the Victor's not Vanquished who write history.

Absolutely, but history told by the victorious is by definition doctored and falsified - basically definition of propaganda and indoctrination. When I make my historic assessment I specifically exclude and account for any such bias and look into it as it was factually, not how it was told by winners.

Just to throw in some stats - total death by Europeans in WW2 excluding soviets and axis powers were 10 million dead, for UK - 485 thousand... and I say "10 million"... actually it was 10 million 685 thousands... so the rounding error on European deaths is more than total UK deaths. You know who as well lost 400 thousand lives? Lithuania.. country of 2.5 million... as a proportion of the population this is second largest in the world (14%) and only surpassed by Poland which lost 5.9 million (17% of population), UK - 0.49%. And sure total deaths are not equivalent to the impact nation had on the war, but it puts things in perspective. 

So when I hear that - "UK was the one beating nazis" I don't exactly believe this. 

 

[royoftherovers]

35 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

History is told by the winner. Why do you think the crown is so rich? Did they dig things out of the ground or just steal them?

Who will win next?

History is written by the person(s) who records it. It is always open to interpretation.

[Phil xxkr]

29 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In the scales of evil I am sure British don't come close to soviets, nazis or japanese, that is not comparison I am making.

I know many ex-Spanish colonies hates them and I am sure that if you ask right questions even in ex-British colonies not everything will be so rosy. Or better - if we look at the matter objectively... slave trade, natural resource and valuable mineral exploitation - that is British doing... However, it is fair to recognise that British Empire was as well vehicle for progress, no matter if it was asked for or forced. I just don't like the picture of of British Empire and later UK as "saviour of the world", because it wasn't and it isn't.

In present time US is very similar to British Empire at it hay day, sure it brings some stability to allies, some wars they get engaged into do destroy evil, but overall US does what is best for US and what protects their geopolitical interests. Despite still overall making world a better place, it often translates into bloodshed as well. The questions sometimes is - at what cost? Or rather who is paying it?

The WW2 and it's conclusion wasn't single day event. Entire Europe fought nazis, but eventually got overpowered. It wasn't British fighting nazis alone, this statement is huge disservice of millions Europeans who fought and died in the war. 

As well US supported UK long before joining the war and it wasn't all lend lease (which by the way was mostly free), Commonwealth supported the war (and Brit's can't take credit for it). Greek supported the war. Same damn soviets were in the mix. And all across the Europe there were countless resistance groups even after nazi occupation.

One thing you recognise for sure that the main benefactor of British Empire was ... surprise surprise - Britain. As for of the rest - it is matter of perspective... is speaking English over your mother tongue can be considered positive? I am sure native americans appreciate democracy brits brought to them... 

Look - I am not saying Brits are evil... I am just saying that assuming that everything they did was some sort of "act of kindness" is wrong. They did what worked best for them at the time - that is all. Some benefited from progress of what was at the time most technologically advanced nation, some lay in unmarked graves... It is just how it works...

But Linas, dear boy, you claim to wish to avoid propaganda yet you are the very fountainhead of it - it's true what they say, that the left accuse you of the very things they are doing 😁 I previously pointed out weaknesses of your prior post and as to this one? Why you would wish to contain the word British in the same sentence as Japanese and Nazis is beyond my comprehension. 

Just who are the "many" ex-spanish colonies and who do they hate? 

That old canard, the slave trade. Been going on and still is with no murmurs from the left other than our involvement nearly 300 years ago and championed abolition against the wishes of the rest of the world

Natural resources/minerals - it existed but until science and the inventiveness of the West found uses for it it had limited value. But of cause once you turn say copper into armiture then you are clearly robbing the natives who didn't want motors or electricity in the first place 

Love to know the attribution for "saviour of the world"? 

The USA, if ever you are asked who has been and is the most generous nation in world history look no further, tall poppies again? 

Your chronology of Ww11 needs polishing up Linas. Yes countries like Greece, France Poland Czech offered resistance that's because they were occupied other than Vichy I suppose. And you will note that I said the British Empire stood alone not Britain 

If you call paying back twice what you borrowed from the USA and Canada "free" I want to loan you some "free money" and I might add it ceded primacy of the seven seas to the USA. 

"Native Americans" I suggest you ask their forerunners, the Arawaks etc. How do you think they got on? 

And if Britain did benefit so what? As in the thousands of years in history before even Britain existed might was always right and may well be the case in the future because as Woody Allen said " and the lamb shall lay down with the lion but won't get much sleep" 😅

 

[Las Palmas]

1 minute ago, royoftherovers said:

History is written by the person(s) who records it. It is always open to interpretation.

The losers have few to tell their case. The winners take it all including the possibility to tell the history. Incas lost and their story is told by the winners.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Why you would wish to contain the word British in the same sentence as Japanese and Nazis is beyond my comprehension. 

It is hard to debate when you can't even read single sentence right 😄

I think I was very clear in my previous post so I don't have much more to add, besides we are reaching the foremost limits of out of topic universe already, so I stop here.

[Las Palmas]

4 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

And if Britain did benefit so what?

And if the mafia benefited so what? Is that what you think? The great British Empire was a joke and it always will be remembered as something not praiseworthy. Steal from the poor less equipped is something to be proud of?

[Phil xxkr]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

  

Absolutely, but history told by the victorious is by definition doctored and falsified - basically definition of propaganda and indoctrination. When I make my historic assessment I specifically exclude and account for any such bias and look into it as it was factually, not how it was told by winners.

Just to throw in some stats - total death by Europeans in WW2 excluding soviets and axis powers were 10 million dead, for UK - 485 thousand... and I say "10 million"... actually it was 10 million 685 thousands... so the rounding error on European deaths is more than total UK deaths. You know who as well lost 400 thousand lives? Lithuania.. country of 2.5 million... as a proportion of the population this is second largest in the world (14%) and only surpassed by Poland which lost 5.9 million (17% of population), UK - 0.49%. And sure total deaths are not equivalent to the impact nation had on the war, but it puts things in perspective. 

So when I hear that - "UK was the one beating nazis" I don't exactly believe this. 

 

Roger bannister (englishman) was victorious in being the first person to run a sub four minute mile, are you stating his record has been falsified and doctored? Although I do believe he was Dr.Roger Bannister 😎

[Phil xxkr]

2 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It is hard to debate when you can't even read single sentence right 😄

I think I was very clear in my previous post so I don't have much more to add, besides we are reaching the foremost limits of out of topic universe already, so I stop here.

I specifically excluded Soviets, same applies. 

[Phil xxkr]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

And if the mafia benefited so what? Is that what you think? The great British Empire was a joke and it always will be remembered as something not praiseworthy. Steal from the poor less equipped is something to be proud of?

Love it John just love it 😁 yet another victory 🥳

[Linas.P]

42 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

I specifically excluded Soviets, same applies. 

I think when it comes to historic fact your position is incomprehensible. The statement was made in a way to show European deaths compared to British, why would I include soviets who are non-Europeans, same reason why I have not included axis as those were the guys basically causing the deaths.

As for "great empire"...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

I sadly can't quote the information in articles so you have to read it yourself, not that I am afraid of the facts but because after making it appropriate to read there would be little of content left:

Quote

Interrogation under torture was widespread. Many of the men were *** ***, using ****, ***** ******, **** *****, ***** and ******. A favourite technique was to *** * *** ***, *** * *** **** ***, while *** was **** into *** **** with a stick. Women were ******* by the guards. People were *** *** *** and *******. The British devised a special tool which they used for first ***** and then ****** **** ****. They used ***** to ****** women's ******. They *** **** inmates' **** and **** and ***** **** **** ****. They ***** people behind Land Rovers **** ***** **** ****. Men were *** *** *** *** *** and *** **** **** the compound.

I would question how widespread aforementioned techniques were and I would like to believe these are highlights and isolated cases. But just a fact we know about them and it was of British doing in "peace time", think about untold horrors throughout the entire history of empire.

This is not nazi concentration camps, or animal like soviet soldiers let lose in war ravaged country side. This is the "Great" British Emprise in 1954 we are talking about. I am sure those on receiving end were "enlightened".  

Sorry for dark turn and content which has questionable relevance in automotive forum, but I just want to be clear that I don't make opinions out of nothing. Maybe let's stop here?

[doog442]

53 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

  So when I hear that - "UK was the one beating nazis" I don't exactly believe this. 

 

I did but that was back in the school playground of a British Army school in Germany about 50 years ago. Then I saw Donald Sutherland playing Sgt Oddball in "Kelly's Heroes" and realised it wasn't all down to us 

Don't hit me with them negative waves 

 

 

[Moleman]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 1. One thing you recognise for sure that the main benefactor of British Empire was ... surprise surprise - Britain. As for of the rest - it is matter of perspective... is speaking English over your mother tongue can be considered positive? I am sure native americans appreciate democracy brits brought to them... 

Look - I am not saying Brits are evil... I am just saying that assuming that everything they did was some sort of "act of kindness" is wrong. They did what worked best for them at the time - that is all. Some benefited from progress of what was at the time most technologically advanced nation, some lay in unmarked graves... It is just how it works...

2. In present time US is very similar to British Empire at it hay day, sure it brings some stability to allies, some wars they get engaged into do destroy evil, but overall US does what is best for US and what protects their geopolitical interests. Despite still overall making world a better place, it often translates into bloodshed as well. The questions sometimes is - at what cost? Or rather who is paying it?

As someone who has served the Crown in 37 overseas locations over the years, 1 above is true to a certain extent. We as an empire always put trading first, it was always about money and then power, but we also introduced Government and Democracy to much of the world and we to this day remain respected and trusted for that. As a representative of the British Crown I was able to access many difficult locations and bring about discussion much easier than the American's or other P5 nations. That positive approach remains a legacy of the Empire to this day.

2 above is very true, even if the Americans will never acknowledge it. They are now entering the dying phase of an Empire and we have much to teach them about the next stages, if they want to learn.

Of more interest and not mentioned very much is the new Empire spreading very quickly across the World, based entirely upon buying up debt. The Chinese, he who holds the debts controls the Governments and if you hold enough across the world; you then start to control what happens in the world.

[Moleman]

2 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

That old canard, the slave trade. Been going on and still is with no murmurs from the left other than our involvement nearly 300 years ago and championed abolition against the wishes of the rest of the world

And if Britain did benefit so what? As in the thousands of years in history before even Britain existed might was always right and may well be the case in the future because as Woody Allen said " and the lamb shall lay down with the lion but won't get much sleep" 😅

 

So true.

[Moleman]

2 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

The losers have few to tell their case. The winners take it all including the possibility to tell the history. Incas lost and their story is told by the winners.

Very true John, but if you study British History particularly English history a change of ruling family usually brought about a rewriting of history. We have many examples still available of completely conflicting versions of history written within several generations.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

As someone who has served the Crown in 37 overseas locations over the years, 1 above is true to a certain extent. We as an empire always put trading first, it was always about money and then power, but we also introduced Government and Democracy to much of the world and we to this day remain respected and trusted for that. As a representative of the British Crown I was able to access many difficult locations and bring about discussion much easier than the American's or other P5 nations. That positive approach remains a legacy of the Empire to this day.

2 above is very true, even if the Americans will never acknowledge it. They are now entering the dying phase of an Empire and we have much to teach them about the next stages, if they want to learn.

Of more interest and not mentioned very much is the new Empire spreading very quickly across the World, based entirely upon buying up debt. The Chinese, he who holds the debts controls the Governments and if you hold enough across the world; you then start to control what happens in the world.

Very incisive Maurice, a very welcome contribution 👍

[Mr Vlad]

It's been mentioned about the Netherlands being in huge debt because of its incentives for EV ownership and how it gives free charging and tax incentives. Most of their electricity is from hydro plants. One in particular supplies 30x More electricity than the whole country needs. Me thinks their debt will soon be paid off. Seems one country knows what it's doing.

[Moleman]

20 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

It's been mentioned about the Netherlands being in huge debt because of its incentives for EV ownership and how it gives free charging and tax incentives. Most of their electricity is from hydro plants. One in particular supplies 30x More electricity than the whole country needs. Me thinks their debt will soon be paid off. Seems one country knows what it's doing.

Do you have source for the above, latest information I have seen (November 2021) is as follows:

The current energy mix in the Netherlands is natural gas (38%), oil (35%), coal (11%), biofuels and waste (5%), and 11% from nuclear, wind, solar, hydropower and geothermal.  The country has one nuclear power plant and one LNG terminal.

[Las Palmas]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

As for "great empire"...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/worst-atrocities-british-empire-amritsar-boer-war-concentration-camp-mau-mau-a6821756.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities

Well done Linas.

Of course that is not what UK schools teach their pupils.

Not that other nations have not done bad things, but the British have great ability to totally ignore that they have ever done anything that was not good for the world.

[Linas.P]

56 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Do you have source for the above, latest information I have seen (November 2021) is as follows:

The current energy mix in the Netherlands is natural gas (38%), oil (35%), coal (11%), biofuels and waste (5%), and 11% from nuclear, wind, solar, hydropower and geothermal.  The country has one nuclear power plant and one LNG terminal.

Yes... I was very surprised with the statement, because Netherlands is flat country and most of it is under sea level - not ideal conditions for hydroelectric. Norway is big on hydropower, but even they only have 40% of energy needs covered, so not 30x times. 

[doog442]

27 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Well done Linas.

 

Of course that is not what UK schools teach their pupils.

Not that other nations have not done bad things, but the British have great ability to totally ignore that they have ever done anything that was not good for the world.

Is it British bashing Sunday per chance  

Do I bookmark it ? 

Las Palmas in "Spain" I guess. What do they teach their pupils in an Island off the coast of Africa. 

[ColinBarber]

15 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Norway is big on hydropower, but even they only have 40% of energy needs covered, so not 30x times. 

For electricity Norway is > 95% renewable, most hydro and a little wind. They obviously have a lot of ICE vehicles that need to be fuelled but they export something like 90% of their oil production - they are a very oil rich country but don't use much themselves.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

For electricity Norway is > 95% renewable, most hydro and a little wind. They obviously have a lot of ICE vehicles that need to be fuelled but they export something like 90% of their oil production - they are a very oil rich country but don't use much themselves.

Sorry, I have looked to wrong graph... in 2010 Norway only made 40% of hydro electricity, but by now it is 90%+

https://www.planete-energies.com/en/medias/saga-energies/history-energy-norway

[Moleman]

8 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

For electricity Norway is > 95% renewable, most hydro and a little wind. They obviously have a lot of ICE vehicles that need to be fuelled but they export something like 90% of their oil production - they are a very oil rich country but don't use much themselves.

Hydropower is still the mainstay of the Norwegian electricity system. At the beginning of 2021, there were 1 681 hydropower plants in Norway, with a combined installed capasity of 33 055 MW. In a normal year, the Norwegian hydropower plants produce 136.4 TWh, which is 90 % of Norways total power production. At the beginning of 2021 a further 2.3 TWh was under construction.

[Linas.P]

20 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Is it British bashing Sunday per chance  

Do I bookmark it ? 

Las Palmas in "Spain" I guess. What do they teach their pupils in an Island off the coast of Africa. 

Maybe history which isn't censored? Although I would not be surprised if Spanish pupils miss out on fellow Spaniards deeds in South and Central America. How they massacred Inca, Maya and Aztec... However in Spain's defence that was 15th-16th century, maybe early 17th Century. The world was quite different back then and we were still burning "witches" back home. So I see how somebody could have forgotten about it. 

In UK case there are still living first hand survivors... since 1952-1963... so it is hard to believe it was simply forgotten or not relevant today..