Direction of travel

[doog442]

On 1/28/2022 at 10:10 AM, Malc said:

I so so rarely complain ....  I just feel that cyclists as Road Users should be paying some sort of Govt Road Tax for using the road too ...  

 

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I don't think suggestion to VED bicycles was ever said or taken seriously by anyone. However, I think it just works as example - if roads are "privilege" which I don't believe they are, then all the users should be paying for that privilege, why only the car drivers should be contributing? Or at least I thought that was a gist of it.

Linas. Malc mentioned it (see above quote). That said I broadly agree with the rest of your comments on not taxing minority groups.

Incidentally the 'cycling industry' is worth several billion ££££. Fag packet maths suggests £462 million in VAT was paid on cycling goods in 2020, so in effect cycling sales are taxed I guess. Likewise 655,000 work in the cycling economy, they pay tax so it all goes into 'the pot'. You never know but perhaps that figure paid the cost of some of this cycling 'infrastructure' that's being developed. Just a thought for the naysayers.  

 

[Phil xxkr]

13 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Your point was spot-on in this context, because most of the tax is arbitrary in some way or another. Especially, those taxes which only applies to certain part of society - say smokers, motorists etc.

So if we can arbitrarily say that drivers somehow are "detriment to the society" (which is crazy but goverment has pushed this narrative quite successfully probably since 60's), then clearly taxing the corporates would be far easier to justify, than say taxing the old or cyclists.

The only problem - goverment owns the narrative and corporations owns the goverment (perhaps not directly, but via lobbies etc)... so don't expect much change there. If there is ever suggestion corporates have to pay even their fair share (10-19% corporate tax) there is always massive campaign to explain how they "employ the people" and how they "invest" and how basically we are prosperous just because they take 90%+ of their profits without paying any tax. 

And what do these corporates/individuals do with these "ill-gotten" gains exactly? Hide it under the bed so no one can see it, use it? 😊

[Phil xxkr]

13 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

The figure was from  the commons library Phil, here's the quote:

"HM Revenue & Customs publishes annual estimates of the tax gap, the difference between tax that is collected and that which is ‘theoretically due’. In September 2021 HMRC published revised estimates, which put the tax gap at £35 billion for 2019/20, representing 5.3% of total tax liabilities."

My point wasn't to try and claim that certain multi nationals were doing anything illegal.  However, the context of the conversation was about who (eg cyclists) "should" pay more tax, and I was merely saying that if more taxation was necessary then I'd sooner see that come first from areas where it is morally/ethically considered to be due (even if legally not) before taking it off everyday folk.

There's also a subtle difference between my tax free allowance and tax avoidance. The former is something I've been explicitly told I can do, whereas the latter is taking advantage of things I haven't been told I can't do. Bit like a sign that says don't walk on the grass, and so you run instead, thus following the letter of the law, but not the spirit. 😉

I accept that the rights/wrongs, pros and cons of taxation, loopholes, avoidance etc are another story that would take forever to debate, and so am just clarifying what I meant in my post.

I love the concept of "theoretically due" 🤣. Knowing HMRC as I do I can see this number as being part of an eloquently argued submission for bigger budgets 🥳

[Phil xxkr]

11 minutes ago, doog442 said:

 

Linas. Malc mentioned it (see above quote). That said I broadly agree with the rest of your comments on not taxing minority groups.

Incidentally the 'cycling industry' is worth several billion ££££. Fag packet maths suggests £462 million in VAT was paid on cycling goods in 2020, so in effect cycling sales are taxed I guess. Likewise 655,000 work in the cycling economy, they pay tax so it all goes into 'the pot'. You never know but perhaps that figure paid the cost of some of this cycling 'infrastructure' that's being developed. Just a thought for the naysayers.  

 

Fag packet maths, 655,000 x av UK salary of 28k =? 

[ganzoom]

The answer to most EV related threads on there from a few people is always hydrogen......Did any one on this forum buy one of the 12 hydrogen cars sold in the UK last year? If so how are you getting on with them, and what is the cost of hydrogen refuelling? If not, why haven't you guys who believe in hydrogen bought one?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-environment-and-energy/why-hydrogen-no-longer-fuel-future

[Mincey]

14 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

As an interested bystander,but not a willing contributor, I confirm that Tax avoidance is legal whilst evasion is not !

It always makes me smile that the company I'm about to leave, who pride themselves on acting ethically, moved their European HQ to Switzerland for tax purposes....

[First_Lexus]

7 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

The answer to most EV related threads on there from a few people is always hydrogen......Did any one on this forum buy one of the 12 hydrogen cars sold in the UK last year? If so how are you getting on with them, and what is the cost of hydrogen refuelling? If not, why haven't you guys who believe in hydrogen bought one?

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-environment-and-energy/why-hydrogen-no-longer-fuel-future

Uh-oh. I sense the pin is out and the grenade is rolling slowly across the forum…

…who will jump on it to save us all from that debate again?! 🤣

[Phil xxkr]

11 minutes ago, Mincey said:

It always makes me smile that the company I'm about to leave, who pride themselves on acting ethically, moved their European HQ to Switzerland for tax purposes....

Brazil has a corporate tax rate of around 35% had they moved there would that make them more ethical 😅

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

Dear Doog442, thank you for the acknowledgement of my post quoted above, just out of curiosity and so I do not mistake your response as tribalism; what was sad? Having read your other posts on this forum subject, lets accept you are correct and we need to increase the use of cycles and decrease the use of ICE on the roads, this works and ICE users are taken off the road in large numbers and cyclists become the majority users of the infrastructure. Bliss it would seem. However, please enlighten us as to whom you believe, should, will, and would be willing to make up the shortfall in taxation if the majority users at that  wonderful time - Cyclists - should never be considered or expected to be asked? 

Waiting with anticipation. 🤣 

I offered a reply to Linas before reading your post on the value of the UK cycling Industry. I've actually done a bit more research and the VAT on the sales of UK cycling goods exceeds the £338 million active travel budget (building of more cycle lanes), so in effect you could argue cycling is paying for itself .

In relation to paying for the shortfall in taxation I doubt that you would ever see such a substantial increase in cycling that you could argue it was having any impact on reducing the number of vehicles on the road. As long as the public transport network is so poor people will always need cars. Actually there are more cars on the road than ever in the UK, despite there being more cyclists than ever, work that one out. 

If you were to look at miles travelled by road users including freight, cycling is estimated at 1% of miles accumulated by all road users (and much of that on cycle lanes). So 99% plus of road use is undertaken by mechanically propelled vehicles. 

To put things into context the Netherlands may have the highest number of cyclists and the best infrastructure ever but car ownership and use is also higher than ever. 

So to sum up any shortfall should come from those who do the most mileage. Wear and tear on roads and motorways (and their subsequent upkeep ) doesn't come from 700 c 28mm tyres, it comes from 40 ton HGV's and 32.7 million cars.

Happy to help 

[doog442]

27 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

Fag packet maths, 655,000 x av UK salary of 28k =? 

VAT on cycle goods was more my point, I think its actually quite poorly paid btw but no idea on that. 

[Mincey]

35 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Uh-oh. I sense the pin is out and the grenade is rolling slowly across the forum…

…who will jump on it to save us all from that debate again?! 🤣

Hydrogen powered IS300 anyone?

[doog442]

47 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Uh-oh. I sense the pin is out and the grenade is rolling slowly across the forum…

…who will jump on it to save us all from that debate again?! 🤣

@ganzoom is also a keen cyclist I believe and works in the NHS to boot and...... cycles to work. Gang let me introduce you to Malc and Maurice   

[Mr Vlad]

Blimey oh Riley how the initial post goes for one almighty dump!@#. So some robbin barstuards Southern councils are charging (no pun intended) FOUR quid per KWh???? Sad gits who use them I say. There's another charger not too far away at a reasonable rate.

Hydrogen power. Great idea and in parts of America its infrastructure makes it work very well. 

Ok off the Initial post. NHS is fundamentally brilliant BUT the money that goes into it doesn't go where its actually needed. Hospitals are generally filthy places. Yes Filthy. My better half is a hospital housekeeper (cleaner) and is one of a far too low percentage of cleaners who actually clean the effin place whist the vast majority of those who are supposed to clean skive off and hide. Fact.

Taxing cyclists. Utter B O L L O X. 

Back to EV's charging. EV makes 100% sence to me. But I love the sound of my V6 too much. 😊

[Phil xxkr]

2 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

Blimey oh Riley how the initial post goes for one almighty dump!@#. So some robbin barstuards Southern councils are charging (no pun intended) FOUR quid per KWh???? Sad gits who use them I say. There's another charger not too far away at a reasonable rate.

Hydrogen power. Great idea and in parts of America its infrastructure makes it work very well. 

Ok off the Initial post. NHS is fundamentally brilliant BUT the money that goes into it doesn't go where its actually needed. Hospitals are generally filthy places. Yes Filthy. My better half is a hospital housekeeper (cleaner) and is one of a far too low percentage of cleaners who actually clean the effin place whist the vast majority of those who are supposed to clean skive off and hide. Fact.

Taxing cyclists. Utter B O L L O X. 

Back to EV's charging. EV makes 100% sence to me. But I love the sound of my V6 too much. 😊

Saturday rant over Vlad? 🤣

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

 

Linas. Malc mentioned it (see above quote). That said I broadly agree with the rest of your comments on not taxing minority groups.

Incidentally the 'cycling industry' is worth several billion ££££. Fag packet maths suggests £462 million in VAT was paid on cycling goods in 2020, so in effect cycling sales are taxed I guess. Likewise 655,000 work in the cycling economy, they pay tax so it all goes into 'the pot'. You never know but perhaps that figure paid the cost of some of this cycling 'infrastructure' that's being developed. Just a thought for the naysayers.  

 

The dog food industry in the UK is worth half as much again as the cycling industry (so size doesn't matter) yet I see no industry lobby for owning more dogs. Yet the physical and mental benefits for people are well known. As to the tax raising amounts from employees, well that's the same point on-line firms amazon et al and are using and get hammered for it 😎

[First_Lexus]

40 minutes ago, Mincey said:

Hydrogen powered IS300 anyone?

As an aside, I for one really miss those threads where the endless debate was whether the 300h power train is powerful enough…

[Phil xxkr]

1 minute ago, First_Lexus said:

As an aside, I for one really miss those threads where the endless debate was whether the 300h power train is powerful enough…

😅 Just like the the old arguments about Hi-fi 🙉

[doog442]

2 minutes ago, Phil xxkr said:

The dog food industry in the UK is worth half as much again as the cycling industry (so size doesn't matter) yet I see no industry lobby for owning more dogs. Yet the physical and mental benefits for people are well known. As to the tax raising amounts from employees, well that's the same point on-line firms Amazon et al and are using and get hammered for it 😎

Not if they're jack Russells  ...nah love 'em really. Dog ownership has apparently gone through the roof with Covid for the reasons you give I guess, we certainly see more about and more dogs mess. Unfortunately I can see our local dog home overflowing when people start returning to work or we'll have a hell of a lot of stressed out, stuck at home dogs.   

[First_Lexus]

47 minutes ago, doog442 said:

@ganzoom is also a keen cyclist I believe and works in the NHS to boot and...... cycles to work. Gang let me introduce you to Malc and Maurice   

This is like the opening minutes of Casualty. You know something bad is going to happen, you just aren’t sure exactly when and to whom…😇

[Moleman]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

I offered a reply to Linas before reading your post on the value of the UK cycling Industry. I've actually done a bit more research and the VAT on the sales of UK cycling goods exceeds the £338 million active travel budget (building of more cycle lanes), so in effect you could argue cycling is paying for itself .

In relation to paying for the shortfall in taxation I doubt that you would ever see such a substantial increase in cycling that you could argue it was having any impact on reducing the number of vehicles on the road. As long as the public transport network is so poor people will always need cars. Actually there are more cars on the road than ever in the UK, despite there being more cyclists than ever, work that one out. 

If you were to look at miles travelled by road users including freight, cycling is estimated at 1% of miles accumulated by all road users (and much of that on cycle lanes). So 99% plus of road use is undertaken by mechanically propelled vehicles. 

To put things into context the Netherlands may have the highest number of cyclists and the best infrastructure ever but car ownership and use is also higher than ever. 

So to sum up any shortfall should come from those who do the most mileage. Wear and tear on roads and motorways (and their subsequent upkeep ) doesn't come from 700 c 28mm tyres, it comes from 40 ton HGV's and 32.7 million cars.

Happy to help 

Thanks, some useful points expressed. Of course the value of the motor industry and the use of cars far exceeds any other area you may wish to offer for comparison. Still not answered the question, what was sad about my post, was there anything you found sad in the post? Or was it just personal? Does not matter which, but why not just own it! Love the gun by the way🤣.l

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

And what do these corporates/individuals do with these "ill-gotten" gains exactly? Hide it under the bed so no one can see it, use it? 😊

Almost exactly that - Crapple has money "issue"... and by issue I mean they have so much money they don't know here to use it. As of 2021 it was $230billion in cash, which they can't use because it was not taxed. They can bring it back to US, but then they have to pay tax (I believe 35%). There were suggestions in Trump administration to make a deal with crapple to offer them bringing all the money back for 5% or 10% instead, but nothing happened with it. 

As such you often see ridiculous buy outs, where some tech company spends $10bn on some stupid loss making website or game, just because those billions are basically dirty/free money which can't be used for anything else. 

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

 UK cycling goods exceeds the £338 million

That is cute - car related goods and services are estimated to be ~£150 billion, that excludes VED and fuel duty. So by the same token cars pays for themselves? why tax them further. And this is typical trialist argument and both sides.

[doog442]

37 minutes ago, Moleman said:

Thanks, some useful points expressed. Of course the value of the motor industry and the use of cars far exceeds any other area you may wish to offer for comparison. Still not answered the question, what was sad about my post, was there anything you found sad in the post? Or was it just personal? Does not matter which, but why not just own it! Love the gun by the way🤣.l

I think its sad that you want to tax or charge cyclists, hence the emoji, quite simple really. 

[doog442]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

That is cute - car related goods and services are estimated to be ~£150 billion, that excludes VED and fuel duty. So by the same token cars pays for themselves? why tax them further. And this is typical trialist argument and both sides.

Sadly none of us will know what % of of our taxes, VAT, company taxes fuel duty etc goes where. Trust me as someone who pays £500 a year VED I'd like to think it went on sorting out my pot holed street but of course it doesn't. 

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

The issue is, and since the formation of our current system of Government always has been, that ‘the people’ demand services from Government....>

 

Yes - the social system we have works on principles of wealth redistribution. But then it is very hard to explain why richest pay the least... As well some services better than others... NHS is mediocre (other countries does it better), schools - mediocre, roads - horrible (objectively). But taxation is relatively high. I honestly can't think of any public service in UK which would be good or excellent.

Taxation should indeed be raised for common good, SHOULD, the problem is that not everyone contributes and "common good" is questionable. It is all good to say that "cyclist" pays income tax and NI already, so we should get of their backs... but wait a second? Motorists do that as well. Even just mentioning as if motorists and cyclists as separate groups just shows how tribalism works and how successful is government divide and rule policy. Cyclist should not be enraged about their infrastructure - motorists literally pay 3.5times over for roads, not counting other taxes and there is enough money to both fix the roads and install separate cycle lanes everywhere. 

Yes our government... done a job, they existed, I would not call that good job. If anything France, Germany and Italy was in way way worse place after WW2. I would argue France and Germany in particular done way better job and even then their governments are far from perfect, so by comparison UK government did poor job. Obviously there are worse governments in the world and "current" (say last 20 years) government is the best government this country ever had, but you giving them way too much credit. I would rank UK government somewhere between acceptable and unacceptable. Not terrible, but not great.

Saying that corruption is low is really hard to accept. Sure it is sometimes hard to divide outright corruption and government waste, but I can point out to at least 10 occasions in last year alone where government was found to have "lost" in excess of £100 million without much of the consequences. And those are only the ones which press got hold off and only the ones where the deal completely fell thought. However there are thousands of examples where we overpay for the service 10 fold, but goods gets delivered and nobody talk about it. This is how NHS works in principle and every NHS order is literally disaster. With some insider knowledge I know that NHS overpays for literally everything from 5 to 10 times... or more. As well it is outright corruption, not even just "waste" - simply said management gets their pockets lined with money, ministers literally sit on boards or have shares in pharmaceutics industry, even GPs get's a cut to promote certain drugs. If one party get's a benefit from ordering inferior or too expensive product using public money - that is definition of corruption. I can give specific examples, but the list would be 10 pages long. It starts from overpaying for every single drug, to pay 10 times more for things like titanium surgical screws, or sterile instruments. In one example MRI was purchased for £7.6 million, where the unit cost was £250k, fair enough they said radiological cabined needed refurbishment, but that was what - £100k extra. How many times is that? 21 times over the price! Sure enough Trust director's wife works as account manager for NHS in Siemens UK. And this is every single thing NHS buys, from basic chemicals to basic drugs. Actually, the cheaper is the thing the more NHS overpays... because it is easier to do it on cheap things. Say paracetamol costs literally like 1p per tablet, but some NHS trusts were found ordering pack of paracetamol with 8 tablets for £4.49... now multiply that by tens of millions of tablets at x56 the cost of what it should and see how much money was lost of generic drug alone. There was another example ordering hand soap and toilet paper, I don't remember the numbers but it was in similar ballpark.

In short - saying that maybe there is little bit of waste here and there... just not true! NHS wastes like 50-70% of their budget. And then at the same time they can't even pay their staff decent salaries. It is literal disaster and on other hand - miracle... that being so inefficient it manages to provide any healthcare service at all. 

[Phil xxkr]

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Almost exactly that - Crapple has money "issue"... and by issue I mean they have so much money they don't know here to use it. As of 2021 it was $230billion in cash, which they can't use because it was not taxed. They can bring it back to US, but then they have to pay tax (I believe 35%). There were suggestions in Trump administration to make a deal with crapple to offer them bringing all the money back for 5% or 10% instead, but nothing happened with it. 

As such you often see ridiculous buy outs, where some tech company spends $10bn on some stupid loss making website or game, just because those billions are basically dirty/free money which can't be used for anything else. 

That is cute - car related goods and services are estimated to be ~£150 billion, that excludes VED and fuel duty. So by the same token cars pays for themselves? why tax them further. And this is typical trialist argument and both sides.

It did in fact happen Linas, headline - "Repatriated profits total $465 billion after Trump tax cuts - leaving $2.5 trillion overseasPublished: Sept. 19, 2018 at 1:02 p.m. ET" 

But my point is the same, even the $2.5 trn overseas is invested somewhere mainly in sound investments providing predictable returns for pension companies. And yes apple has 230bn in cash but you fail to mention is has 74bn in long term debt and has committed to investing $430bn in the USA - don't you just love figures? 👍