Prototype EV Battery gives 750 mile Range

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

Not sure about the M3 but we saw the demo Elon put on with an automated battery change facility for the MS, the battery was changed (twice) in the time it took an equivalent US vehicle to be fuelled.

So you saying they changed the Battery twice on production Tesla, not some fake Elon the Mr. Fraud demo made-up car in ~ 1 minute?! Because fuelling average size passenger car takes 2 minutes at most (~65L). I doubt it!

Now sure - in theory, changing the Battery on the car could be as quick as replacing one on say impact driver if underside is designed with quick detach connections -  say 15 seconds. But that is most certainly not the case on any current production BEVs... Tesla in particular - it is probably 90-120 min job, undoing few dozen bolts, getting access to them, disconnecting dozen of wires etc. It is very doable on the lift, but not at all very simple or very quick. 

4 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

If you mean battery that’s another misconception put around by the anti EV brigade, even when a new battery will be needed the old battery still has plenty enough life in it to be used as a power storage pack in power bank use.

That is excuse or assumption at best. That something is reusable, it doesn't mean replacement won't create pollution. 

We can argue that car tyres are not waste, because some artist created flower pot of one, that is just exception from the norm nothing more. Yes some people have reused old Tesla batteries as storage for solar panels... very useful indeed for the rest of the population who neither have skill required to do it, nor solar panels on the roof (maybe like me - living in the flat).

And yes again - Tesla have built some proof of concept storage facilities in Australia, but that is special case and was built at no cost for the owner there (subsidised by Tesla and Government). However, if we try to make it commercially variable I am quite sure looking at cost of used batteries it soon will become clear that isn't that great.

 

[ganzoom]

49 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

No - "structural" means they fit the batteries in all the crevices in the chassis rails and other structural components making them impossible to remove. The only way to remove batteries will require cutting structural cassis components apart, which is basically not viable.

 

Given Tesla has been building EVs since 2009 and fully aware of the need to replace Battery packs, I suspect Tesla 'structural' packs will be easily serviceable, though am not sure why you would care as you have stated many times before how you are waiting for hydrogen fuel cells cars to come.....Though even though they are here you haven't got one?? 

[Las Palmas]

50 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And even if they would be, then their promises are non-biding which fundamentally undermines the system of elections and democracy. 

So in theory you right, but practice is more complicated than that. 

Absolutely. Making voters wake up is not easy and making them intelligent is very complicated to maybe not possible.

That is one thing Churchill had right.

[Las Palmas]

38 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

If you mean battery that’s another misconception put around by the anti EV brigade, even when a new battery will be needed the old battery still has plenty enough life in it to be used as a power storage pack in power bank use.

Sure, some are not factual when being against the EV cars.

But that does not make EV cars green or even a possible replacement for all cars, trucks and busses. It is a complete misunderstanding that this is possible, and really a shame that so many believe it.

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

No - "structural" means they fit the batteries in all the crevices in the chassis rails and other structural components making them impossible to remove. The only way to remove batteries will require cutting structural cassis components apart, which is basically not viable.

It is a single pack that allows the front and rear subframes to bolt directly onto, and also removes the need for a floor plan as the Battery pack itself becomes that. There's no stuffing batteries inside crevices or rails, nor is there the requirement to cut things apart.

Here are some pictures if you want to educate yourself:

https://insideevs.com/news/539615/tesla-gigaberlin-4680-structural-battery/

 

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It is a single pack that allows the front and rear subframes to bolt directly onto, and also removes the need for a floor plan as the battery pack itself becomes that. There's no stuffing batteries inside crevices or rails, nor is there the requirement to cut things apart.

Here are some pictures if you want to educate yourself:

https://insideevs.com/news/539615/tesla-gigaberlin-4680-structural-battery/

When we talking about specifically 4680 cell Battery in Model Y - yes that is the case. Still it forms entire floor of the car, seats are bolted to it as is rest of the interior. It may not be impossible to remove, but unlikely to be feasible on 12 years old car. 

However, if you look at the vision and principle of structural batteries (Elon used example for airplane wing) then the target and future is that any free space in frame would be filled with cells. From integration and engineering point of view it actually makes sense, as structural components can be made lighter, because filling them with batteries makes them more rigid, on top of that car will weight less and there will be more interior space in smaller car. All good until...

...it becomes a problem when Battery pack deteriorates or when some individual cells dies... you  can't simply swap them out and car becomes basically consumable thing - use once and discard. And even the theory of reusing batteries as cheap solar storage option goes out of the window.. unless you want to keep half of car frame in your shed.

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

So you saying they changed the battery twice on production Tesla, not some fake Elon the Mr. Fraud demo made-up car in ~ 1 minute?! Because fuelling average size passenger car takes 2 minutes at most (~65L). I doubt it!

Now sure - in theory, changing the battery on the car could be as quick as replacing one on say impact driver if underside is designed with quick detach connections -  say 15 seconds. But that is most certainly not the case on any current production BEVs... Tesla in particular - it is probably 90-120 min job, undoing few dozen bolts, getting access to them, disconnecting dozen of wires etc. It is very doable on the lift, but not at all very simple or very quick. 

That is excuse or assumption at best. That something is reusable, it doesn't mean replacement won't create pollution. 

We can argue that car tyres are not waste, because some artist created flower pot of one, that is just exception from the norm nothing more. Yes some people have reused old Tesla batteries as storage for solar panels... very useful indeed for the rest of the population who neither have skill required to do it, nor solar panels on the roof (maybe like me - living in the flat).

And yes again - Tesla have built some proof of concept storage facilities in Australia, but that is special case and was built at no cost for the owner there (subsidised by Tesla and Government). However, if we try to make it commercially variable I am quite sure looking at cost of used batteries it soon will become clear that isn't that great.

 

Your completely misguided as to refuelling times, even for your own vehicle…try genuinely timing next time you fuel from getting out of your vehicle to getting back in again.  But I would imagine judging by your posts you still walk behind horse and carts collecting spent fuel 🤣

This is the event in front of the worlds press, and yes they were allowed to inspect the system after the test.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event

[Boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Sure, some are not factual when being against the EV cars.

But that does not make EV cars green or even a possible replacement for all cars, trucks and busses. It is a complete misunderstanding that this is possible, and really a shame that so many believe it.

It will be impossible to replace every type of vehicle with electric power, I am pretty sure no body ever stated that here?

Hydrogen fuel cell technology will probably be the preferred power source for HGV (just as they are now for railway transport being researched and proven).

Buses/Coaches are already in production (and have been a while) with electric powertrains, as are some with Hydrogen and Hybrid drive systems.

I seriously know nobody in regular EV forums who believe HGVs will be using pure electric power, the requirement (with today’s technology) would be far too heavy and too bulky, the GVW of an HGV would be ridiculously high.

Seimens in Germany have working demonstration HGV vehicles that are pure EV but these are using an OHLE system just the same as Locomotives/Trains do, they have installed several miles of OHLE catenary on a Motorway section for the purpose (I personally doubt the viability of this system).

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Your completely misguided as to refuelling times, even for your own vehicle…try genuinely timing next time you fuel from getting out of your vehicle to getting back in again.  But I would imagine judging by your posts you still walk behind horse and carts collecting spent fuel 🤣

This is the event in front of the worlds press, and yes they were allowed to inspect the system after the test.

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/videos/battery-swap-event

This comparison is clearly ridiculous and you simply ignored what I have said. 

The car in the event is not production car (as I assumed) - it is prototype at best, but realistically just mock-up of real car, it is one off gimmick (or two of them) specifically made to show off idea of what Battery swap could be in future. Elon the Fraud claims they using factory robot under the car to torque all the bolts, but that is clear fantasy and lie. If you ever seen Tesla Battery actually being taken out - there are dozen of cables which needs to be disconnected and bolts which have to be undone from inside, as well multiple floor plates and under trays protecting the Battery which have to be removed before the Battery can even be access. Basically what they doing on the stage is fake and certainly not something you can do with Tesla Model S anywhere in the world even to this day.

Note as well that this was something Elon the Fraud showed off in 2013, yet 8 years later there are no such stations anywhere? Do you ever wonder why? Superchargers are not free anymore either! Don't get me wrong, Elon is evil genius, he is smart guy, but he is proven liar, he always shamelessly used strategy - "fake it until you make it" and this is just another example. Same with autopilot, same with actual Model 3 (it took 2 more years than promised to actually ship it) and so on. 

Likewise, it takes just over 2 minutes to fuel the car and that is only in UK, because pumps are very slow here and triggers doesn't lock. In most European countries gas just flows quicker and you can simply put the hose, lock the trigger and walk away. I reckon full tank of ~65L take about 90s to fill. Besides they literally found slowest pump (despite claiming it is fastest) and chosen the car with literally the largest tank available - that Audi A8 has 85L tank + reserve (so probably 90L to fill).

Counting time it takes you to pay, buy coffee and take a *****, is neither here nor there - presumably you have to pay somehow for Battery swap as well. I may be misguided if you say so, but if you believe this is legitimate and fair comparison of how long it takes to refuel vs. Battery swap, then you are clearly brainwashed.

P.S. I am not saying that the idea isn't possible, I am sure it is possible and it could be done if anyone wanted to do it. I even suspect it is not engineering challenge - just swap bolts for lock tabs, few dead bolts to lock-it in place, replace standard harness with some sort of contacts which just slides in and it is done. I think the reason we don't have it yet is legal issues and liabilities. What if your Tesla catches fire after Battery swap and god forbid somebody dies. If that would have been your Battery which is damaged, that would be just matter of insurance, but if that Battery was swapped in by Tesla and they missed the tiny dent in it, then it becomes Tesla liability and they would never risk that. Even simpler issue - Battery becomes faulty, Tesla says it is you who damaged it, but it is them who swapped it 2 days ago - who is responsible, you? The person before you? Tesla? How to prove when and who exactly damaged the Battery? If it wouldn't be the case, then I am sure Elon would have figured out how to do it in 8 years.

[hockeyedwards]

On 1/20/2022 at 7:23 PM, Boxbrownie said:

I’d like to see a screen shot of that message, what model vehicle was it?

It was a Polestar 2, it was an instagram story and I didn't save it, but have asked the original poster for the image/ video.

Also, caught up with my dad today and without prompt he was advised for his Jaguar I-Pace to stay between 20-80% charge...

I see this thread has really sparked some discussion, good to see, love some enthusiastic information bashing 😛

[hockeyedwards]

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Your completely misguided as to refuelling times, even for your own vehicle…try genuinely timing next time you fuel from getting out of your vehicle to getting back in again.

I believe a study had the average pump flow rate in the UK at 40-50 litres per minute which was **** compared to our mainland Europe counterparts.

BUT I do think some were shown to be as low as 25L/min... so if you're at the jankiest pump station, maybe it'll take an age 🤣

@Linas.P so 2 mins really is feasible

@Boxbrownie maybe you should sit and time 2 minutes on your phone just standing at home, it is surprising how slow it really goes when you aren't doing anything, so standing at a pump would be no different, unless you take a while to get in/ out of your car and release the fuel cap? (no sarcasm, just a possible observation, as to why it feels longer for you)

[NemesisUK]

Ok, it's in the USA but some interesting timings

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-normally-take-you-to-fill-up-at-a-gas-station-from-the-time-you-drive-onto-their-lot-to-the-time-you-leave

 

[Linas.P]

19 minutes ago, hockeyedwards said:

I believe a study had the average pump flow rate in the UK at 40-50 litres per minute which was **** compared to our mainland Europe counterparts.

BUT I do think some were shown to be as low as 25L/min... so if you're at the jankiest pump station, maybe

<...>unless you take a while to get in/ out of your car and release the fuel cap? <...>

Just like the guy in Tesla promo - took 21s to just get out of the car 😄 

As for fill rate - it was my gut feel that UK pumps are slower although I never personally timed them, but it seems study supports that. On top of that UK pumps are very sensitive and often clicks-off for no reason, never happened to me in other countries. And obviously aforementioned lack of locking on trigger (because of babysitter state) may give impression that it takes forever to fill the car. 

7 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

Ok, it's in the USA but some interesting timings

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-normally-take-you-to-fill-up-at-a-gas-station-from-the-time-you-drive-onto-their-lot-to-the-time-you-leave

That is again about how long people tend to spend inside the station, not how long it actually takes to fill the tank. Elon just tried to prove the point which was not important, via technology which was not feasible for some reason.

I agree that average fuel stop overall, takes somewhere between 5-10minutes for me, but that is not the pumping part that takes the most of time. Furthermore, I am sure this time could literally be reduced to 90s and petrol station could simply send you invoice based on your number plate or deduct it from some autopay account, but incidentally about 10minutes is the time which feels about right to stretch you hands and legs after few hundred miles of driving. So as it was never a problem, nobody ever bothered to shorten it further.

Obviously there is always some EVangelists 😄 LOL nobody cares and he failed to even mention the time, because that is in hours not minutes.

[Las Palmas]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That is only the case if you believe in free and fair elections, or assume that we live in representative democracy. I am not saying that we definitely don't, but I would not take that for granted. Many recent developments shows otherwise, especially in UK with two party system and first past the post system, the elected politicians are not representative of the voters at all. And even if they would be, then their promises are non-biding which fundamentally undermines the system of elections and democracy. 

So in theory you right, but practice is more complicated than that. 

Blind belief of authorities is greatest enemy of truth

[Boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

Ok, it's in the USA but some interesting timings

https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-normally-take-you-to-fill-up-at-a-gas-station-from-the-time-you-drive-onto-their-lot-to-the-time-you-leave

 

I wouldn’t bother trying to persuade any petrol head, everything is fast except their vehicles 🤣

[Boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, Linas.P said:

.

I agree that average fuel stop overall, takes somewhere between 5-10minutes for me,

 

There you go, wasn’t that easy? 

[Boxbrownie]

14 hours ago, hockeyedwards said:

It was a Polestar 2, it was an instagram story and I didn't save it, but have asked the original poster for the image/ video.

Also, caught up with my dad today and without prompt he was advised for his Jaguar I-Pace to stay between 20-80% charge...

I see this thread has really sparked some discussion, good to see, love some enthusiastic information bashing 😛

Odd, my Daughter has had an iPace for three years and never had any advice like that, always on charge on the Farm all day and night and after a software update just after delivery the range went up by about 20 miles, and so far has no degraded.

 

Although the all wheel drive does get used 😄

[Linas.P]

6 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

There you go, wasn’t that easy? 

First of all you misquoted me and that is rude -

I said:

19 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I agree that average fuel stop overall, takes somewhere between 5-10 minutes for me, but that is not the pumping part that takes the most of time.

That is indeed correct, just doesn't prove anything. You said how long does it take to fuel the car and the answer is 90 seconds. How long it takes to get coffee and go to toilet is irrelevant for this discussion.

As well you clearly have noting to say about Battery swap technology being fake, because there is nothing to say - if Elon could not make it in 8 years, then he was simply lying in 2013 as he always does.

[Boxbrownie]

32 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

First of all you misquoted me and that is rude -

I said:

That is indeed correct, just doesn't prove anything. You said how long does it take to fuel the car and the answer is 90 seconds. How long it takes to get coffee and go to toilet is irrelevant for this discussion.

As well you clearly have noting to say about battery swap technology being fake, because there is nothing to say - if Elon could not make it in 8 years, then he was simply lying in 2013 as he always does.

In that case with my EV it’s takes just about 20 seconds to “fuel” my car, 10 seconds to plug it in and then ten seconds to unplug it when we want to go out.

 

As to the rest, your views are you own, and probably best left there with you.

[ColinBarber]

31 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

As well you clearly have noting to say about battery swap technology being fake, because there is nothing to say - if Elon could not make it in 8 years, then he was simply lying in 2013 as he always does.

Tesla gave up on the idea years ago, but Nio do it today in China and their first station in Norway has gone live recently. Takes around 5 mins I believe.

[Boxbrownie]

1 minute ago, ColinBarber said:

Tesla gave up on the idea years ago, but Nio do it today in China and their first station in Norway has gone live recently. Takes around 5 mins I believe.

Careful…..are you sure that not just Chinese communist propaganda? 

[ColinBarber]

1 minute ago, Boxbrownie said:

Careful…..are you sure that not just Chinese communist propaganda? 

It's ok, this is the UK version of LOC not the US one 😄

[Linas.P]

31 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

In that case with my EV it’s takes just about 20 seconds to “fuel” my car, 10 seconds to plug it in and then ten seconds to unplug it when we want to go out.

As to the rest, your views are you own, and probably best left there with you.

Probably best to ignore you, because having meaningful debate with person who misconstructs and misquotes everything is pointless.

I just find it funny that most EVangelists are like that, EV religion seems to appeal the most to certain type of strange people.

Just for the record - I am not against EVs and they have their strengths and weaknesses, but I hate EVangelists who literally associate EVs with some magic and impossible features they don't have and then choose to wilfully ignore any arguments which don't look at EVs like some divine creation or points out anything even remotely negative or objective.

31 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

Tesla gave up on the idea years ago, but Nio do it today in China and their first station in Norway has gone live recently. Takes around 5 mins I believe.

Does not surprise me that they can do that in country without functioning and independent courts, nor law and order. As result 9 times out of 10 when you see EV going out in flames it is from China. It would be interesting to see T&C and applicable liabilities in Norway thought. 

[First_Lexus]

I think @Boxbrowniehit the nail on the head earlier in this thread, and a few weeks ago I listened to an ‘industry expert’ say much the same thing on the radio.

Electric vehicles will become the default choice for ‘shorter’ distances - say up to 300 miles on a round trip. The infrastructure will improve and, as long as there is capacity for most EVs to charge to 80% in 10-15 minutes, then electric will become the norm in Europe and metropolitan America/Australia etc.

For rural areas, or those areas where longer distances are regularly needed and/or electricity infrastructure is more limited, then either there will be a new solution such as hydrogen, or internal combustion will continue. Heavy goods may also require a new solution.

Battery technology will evolve just as internal combustion has evolved. It will become more efficient, and hopefully production less impactful. For now, the answer is a mixture of technologies depending on the circumstances of the user - both in terms of lifestyle and economics. 

 

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

I think @Boxbrowniehit the nail on the head earlier in this thread, and a few weeks ago I listened to an ‘industry expert’ say much the same thing on the radio.

Electric vehicles will become the default choice for ‘shorter’ distances - say up to 300 miles on a round trip. The infrastructure will improve and, as long as there is capacity for most EVs to charge to 80% in 10-15 minutes, then electric will become the norm in Europe and metropolitan America/Australia etc.

For rural areas, or those areas where longer distances are regularly needed and/or electricity infrastructure is more limited, then either there will be a new solution such as hydrogen, or internal combustion will continue. Heavy goods may also require a new solution.

Battery technology will evolve just as internal combustion has evolved. It will become more efficient, and hopefully production less impactful. For now, the answer is a mixture of technologies depending on the circumstances of the user - both in terms of lifestyle and economics.

I don't think anyone denies that BEV technology has ways to improve. But making ever larger Battery packs is not the solution, instead for example solid-state batteries will be major step in terms of capacity, density and charge times.

Issue with BEV is not capacity and range, it is charging time. There are various workarounds, but they are limited in use. Simply fitting larger Battery is one, charging at home is another, but they are not ideal if one can't charge at home or if the range is exceeded in single journey. So until we can genuinely charge Battery in 2 minutes or Battery packs will be made to single standard and could be swapped, it will continue to be an issue. 

For me personally, the move from ICEV to BEV seems irrational, just because cars are minor contributor to climate change and whole issue is overblown and seems like scape goat scenario. Government want "they cake and it too" - they want they never ending growth and inflation, but don't want associated waste and pollution. That is fine by me, but car owners should not be the ones to pay for this ill informed policy.