EV range in winter

dutchie01 · January 4, 2022

The initial push to stimulate BEV s was surely coming from the various governments. Most countries have their fiscal stimulation packs pushing company car buyers into electric vehicles and at thesame time rolling out the charging infrastructure. Norway is clearly leading the pack followed by the other scandinavian countries and the netherlands where i live. The fiscal stimulation here started some 6 years ago and has been reduced every year since. This year 2022 it is neglectable and the fiscal cost is basically thesame as a fossil car. 25% of new cars in 2021 were BEV in holland and in lots of cases it were people getting their second or third EV companycar. Without Fiscal aid the number of BEVs still keeps growing. The charging network is great, i even could own one without homecharging. Charging stations in every petrolstation, hotel, office and they are currently upgraded to 350kw chargers. No Problem. The EV is here to stay and people like the silence, instant torque and overall clean experience of driving one. On Battery performance/driving efficiency Tesla is still miles ahead and most drivers love their car. Not all as the first years the buildquality was questionable creating many unhappy owners but those days seem behind them. Throughout the year there will be an explosion of new models hitting the market and all of them will find happy owners sometimes even as second familycar. Toyota has finally woken up and Lexus will also participate

RichGS11 · January 4, 2022

8 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The initial push to stimulate BEV s was surely coming from the various governments. Most countries have their fiscal stimulation packs pushing company car buyers into electric vehicles and at thesame time rolling out the charging infrastructure. Norway is clearly leading the pack followed by the other scandinavian countries and the netherlands where i live. The fiscal stimulation here started some 6 years ago and has been reduced every year since. This year 2022 it is neglectable and the fiscal cost is basically thesame as a fossil car. 25% of new cars in 2021 were BEV in holland and in lots of cases it were people getting their second or third EV companycar. Without Fiscal aid the number of BEVs still keeps growing. The charging network is great, i even could own one without homecharging. Charging stations in every petrolstation, hotel, office and they are currently upgraded to 350kw chargers. No Problem. The EV is here to stay and people like the silence, instant torque and overall clean experience of driving one. On battery performance/driving efficiency Tesla is still miles ahead and most drivers love their car. Not all as the first years the buildquality was questionable creating many unhappy owners but those days seem behind them. Throughout the year there will be an explosion of new models hitting the market and all of them will find happy owners sometimes even as second familycar. Toyota has finally woken up and Lexus will also participate

The general view in Norway is that it is accepted that BEV's have better 'rights' to stimulate the infrastructure. I have not heard a single person complain, but I haven't spoken to everyone and in Norway and that area of the world, I do find they are more forward thinking and have the money to be that way. As a country there seems to be less negativity as they are generally happier with the decisions made by their government, especially because of the benefits you mention from BEV vehicles.

Time will certainly tell where we go as a country and where BEV's sit in the grand scheme of things. My personal opinion is that there needs to be healthy moderation of all fuel types, depending on which one works in which part of the world you are. That way we don't lean heavily on one type of fuel.

Linas.P · January 4, 2022

18 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

they are generally happier with the decisions made by their government

That way we don't lean heavily on one type of fuel.

In summary they are obedient... The only question is if they going towards utopia or dystrophia?

Yeah - like basically forcing people to drive BEV and all depend on electricity. Seem very healthy indeed...

And I am not against BEVs, but ban of ICEs in near future and punitive taxation when subsidising BEVs doesn't feel right. Especially considering that reduction of pollution from average ICE to average BEV (and Teslas are not average) is only 30% and cars contribute miniscule proportion of pollution which causes global warming.

Things like legalising tenant rights to install charging points at home or legislating that all developments must have parking spaces for at least 80-90% of occupants with charging points I would support, because that is just enabling BEV without showing it down the through whilst forcibly taking ICE away.

RichGS11 · January 4, 2022

9 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In summary they are obedient...

Yes like us as a nation. They just have better lives and a government you can almost trust. Sounds like utopia to me 😂

talaipwros · January 4, 2022

really cold winter days affected my Leaf about 20% ( from 200 miles to 160 ) Keep in mind though that I used heated seats, steering wheel, A/C etc

dutchie01 · January 4, 2022

Vasileios is that an issue for you? How do you like your Nissan Leaf and how does it compare to the CT 200H? Not talking about finance but the car itself?

talaipwros · January 4, 2022

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Vasileios is that an issue for you? How do you like your Nissan Leaf and how does it compare to the CT 200H? Not talking about finance but the car itself?

No, it is not an issue really. I always charge it at home so having even at worst case scenario 160 miles range for daily commute, is more than adequate.

It is surprising similar to the Lexus inside, at least the top spec e+.

Some trim bits feel a notch down quality wise, but overall quality is more than adequate ( much better than the disastrous ID3 ) and I am quite happy with it.

oh, and it is quite fast indeed

I did consider the UX300e, - there are some amazing offers now , even for Takumi spec on Autotrader, '71plate with less than 100 miles on the clock for £46,572 - but I think that range anxiety would become an issue

Herbie · January 5, 2022

Just happened to see this bit of info today that says EV chargers are to be separately metered from the domestic supply.

Linas.P · January 5, 2022

46 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Just happened to see this bit of info today that says EV chargers are to be separately metered from the domestic supply.

Not surprised at all, it would have been naive to think that goverment won't charge BEV drivers additional tax. First they have introduced "luxury car" duty and £40k is just about where somewhat decent BEV prices starts, it is hard to get even UX below £40k, never mind something actually luxurious. As usual £40k is conveniently not subject to inflation, despite everything else being adjusted for it... so whereas in 2018 it was just about possible to get car under that, nowadays you can't because in real terms the limit is equivalent to ~£37k of 2018 money.

And as I said many times before, despite of many deniers and dreamers - in UK we don't have capacity to charge cars if suddenly majority of them become BEVs. It seems about ok when people average everything out, but truth is that there will be many peaks in demand which we can't cover. It is all amazing to say that there is enough capacity over a month for all the BEVs to get charged provided that miraculously everyone will sync-up charge their car specifically at the time when Joe on other side of UK doesn't, but reality is that everyone wants to charge their BEV right now on Friday 7PM and not on Sunday 3AM in the morning.

So for one - this legislation makes sense and confirms that capacity will be limited and rationed, two... "honey moon" for BEV owners is over and this creates the precedent to tax BEVs further. In the past it was people using "green" diesel and being fined on the road, the future will be people not disclosing charging points at home and getting fined for using electricity "wrong".

Thinking about it - this is spit in the face for Tesla superchargers and for the owners who still have "forever" free-charging. I am sure that whatever tax they will come-up with will be the same structure as for fuel duties i.e. set amount rather than percentage e.g. 25p flat duty per KW. Because otherwise 10% on £0 would still be 0... and these bloodsucker won't have that!

Las Palmas · January 5, 2022

EV range does not really matter. Battery pollution when no longer holding charge does. Alternative is needed.

Ships are the first to get green fuel, but if/when that is available it can be used in cars too:

https://shipandbunker.com/news/emea/922376-denmarks-port-of-hanstholm-plans-synthetic-methanol-production-facility

I do not trust a politician longer than I can throw a full-grown African elephant uphill but:

https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/04/denmark-aims-for-fossil-fuel-free-inland-flights-by-2030/

e-fuel does not need to be electricity stored in batteries:

https://erhvervsstyrelsen.dk/sites/default/files/2021-03/Green Fuels for Denmark one-pager_0.pdf

If many/most/some of these projects get going well EV cars with batteries will be: not interesting:

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/maersk-backs-plan-for-large-green-ammonia-plant-in-denmark-2021-02-23

Still waiting for fuelling stations so we can drive in cars, sounding like cars. But am willing to settle for hydrogen fuel-cell when that become affordable.

Is it expensive? Most new things when being developed are too expensive but will still be developed and price will sooner or later become acceptable:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ankitmishra/2021/11/29/hydrogenious-is-using-conventional-fuel-infrastructure-to-scale-green-hydrogen-adoption/

Now: Is it really green fuel in the end?

No.

It is not making itself when the plants needed to make the fuel exist. Plants must be made where water is abundant, electric power is available to make the fuel which then must be transported to the user of the fuel. Windmills, even well built do not last forever as also solar cells become worn out. Around 15 tons of water needs to be purified to make 1 ton hydrogen.

talaipwros · January 5, 2022

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

Just happened to see this bit of info today that says EV chargers are to be separately metered from the domestic supply.

interesting

So the way forward has to be solar panels connected to the EV charger then ( or just buy a diesel and forget about "saving the planet" etc )

First_Lexus · January 5, 2022

I’m no expert, but comparing Norway with the UK feels problematic. After all, I’d assume the infrastructure needed to charge vehicles for a nation of 5.5m souls is slightly different to that needed for a population of 68m!

Nevertheless, the UK Government needs to step up public charging availability quickly if mass use of EVs really is to become the norm in the next decade. Otherwise people will lose heart and patience and resist the change altogether.

Linas.P · January 5, 2022

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

I’m no expert, but comparing Norway with the UK feels problematic. After all, I’d assume the infrastructure needed to charge vehicles for a nation of 5.5m souls is slightly different to that needed for a population of 68m!

Nevertheless, the UK Government needs to step up public charging availability quickly if mass use of EVs really is to become the norm in the next decade. Otherwise people will lose heart and patience and resist the change altogether.

Agreed. At least they should remove legal burden for people who may want to do it themselves. For example for all renters and even leaseholders it is non starter - I wanted to install charger on my parking space, but the freeholder who owns the land for the estate simply isn't interested. They have not denied, but they simply ignored my request and not approved or responded to it.

So for example in my case I can install charging point without government assistance and I have dedicated parking space, but I have no legal rights to do so. On top of that goverment continue to allow developers to build the buildings not only without chargers, but even without any parking spaces at all.

Then there is simply lack of any plan at all for the big picture - capacity, generation, distribution etc. which is not a sign of competent government, especially considering the fact they decided to ban all ICEVs by 2030 without having any concrete plan of how it is going to be achieved, but simply putting out political stance there to score for vegetable points.

paulrnx · January 5, 2022

BEVs will be a temporary solution. Once fully synthetic fuel can be made, that burns in an engine with no harmful emissions, we’ll be back to internal combustion engines. I’m sure it’s possible.

Malc · January 6, 2022

19 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I am sure that whatever tax they will come-up with will be the same structure as for fuel duties i.e. set amount rather than percentage e.g. 25p flat duty per KW.

to me this has been blindingly obvious from the outset ............ of course the Exchequer is going to have to be replenished from people's cars etc .. the UK has to survive ....... paying for the NHS etc . and the car owning / using public simply WILL be paying it's fair ( or greater ) share ............. as ever :yes:

13 hours ago, paulrnx said:

BEVs will be a temporary solution. Once fully synthetic fuel can be made, that burns in an engine with no harmful emissions, we’ll be back to internal combustion engines. I’m sure it’s possible.

me too .......... :thumbsup:

And my dear old 4ltr V8 can continue apace too ....... not so sure about me tho' :wink3:

Malc

Linas.P · January 6, 2022

6 minutes ago, Malc said:

to me this has been blindingly obvious from the outset ...

I was never in doubt either, but I remember few people labouring this point of how cheap it is per mile compared to petrol... without realising that 80% of petrol price is just duties ... and once petrol/diesel cars dies out goverment will find the way of getting that money from EV owners somehow. It was never a question of if, just when.

dutchie01 · January 6, 2022

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I was never in doubt either, but I remember few people labouring this point of how cheap it is per mile compared to petrol... without realising that 80% of petrol price is just duties ... and once petrol/diesel cars dies out goverment will find the way of getting that money from EV owners somehow. It was never a question of if, just when.

Fully agree. Overhere it is more likely they will go for roadpricing. Meaning the moment you start driving the taximeters starts running. Seems pretty complicated to me let alone the privacy aspect of it but hey, its all about money.

Linas.P · January 6, 2022

9 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Fully agree. Overhere it is more likely they will go for roadpricing. Meaning the moment you start driving the taximeters starts running. Seems pretty complicated to me let alone the privacy aspect of it but hey, its all about money.

In UK they are planning exactly the same, it comes as EU directive (which UK heavily supported, I would even say sponsored). First step is what is called ISA, it is sold to the public as "speed monitoring" device only used in case of crash, but in fact it is full on tracker/spying device which collects data about all aspects of your driving, connected to GPS and internet. For the time being they claim it does not automatically send the data out, but it is technically capable of constantly monitoring and reporting it directly to police (or worse) each time you gone over the limit (I know sounds dystopian, but it is fact).

Then they are already discussing, charging per mile as you drive as a future of road tax. In one hand it does make sense and I would argue it is the fairest way to tax the roads - the more you drive them more you pay. However, what they are planning to do in UK really pisses me off - basically they planning to charge you more if you get stuck in traffic, or drive during peak hours. From the consumer point of view that must be opposite - I am sorry, but if you F***** up the infrastructure and didn't build road with required capacity, then you must be charging me LESS, because I get LESS service not more. It is like buying ticket to the cinema and then being told that you have to pay more to stand, because they didn't put enough seats or oversold existing ones!

dutchie01 · January 6, 2022

That exactly is how roadpricing was launched as an idea more than a decade ago, to avoid trafficjams. Idea beeing to make it more expensive in rush hour or certain roads so people will drive outside of peak hours. Idea of course totally crashed as people in most cases have no choice or simply avoid highways and drive from village to village with all consequenses attached.

Linas.P · January 6, 2022

13 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

That exactly is how roadpricing was launched as an idea more than a decade ago, to avoid trafficjams. Idea beeing to make it more expensive in rush hour or certain roads so people will drive outside of peak hours. Idea of course totally crashed as people in most cases have no choice or simply avoid highways and drive from village to village with all consequenses attached.

Avoiding peak times that is one thing and it partially makes sense e.g. maybe it is 15p mile standard and 30p mile during peek time, to encourage off-peak. The caveat is that as you say people most of the time, can't choose so it isn't entirely fair, but I can get behind the idea as in principle it makes sense.

However, the proposal in UK (which to be fair is not final and still being discussed) was even more complex. Basically it was charge per mile/hour/road type/traffic priority/car type... So it wasn't straight cut, like between 8AM and 10AM you are charged more. It was more like if you drive on road type A, then the charge will be different from type B (say London vs. country side), if there are road works they may temporary set different charge, if there is accident, they may set different charge... so basically it was mine field... In practice it would mean that you can set-out to drive off-peak (say 10PM in the evening) down to the country side, but because there was accident and on top of that overnight roadworks started by the time you cleared the jam, you may be paying much higher rate... on top of paying extra for just simply being on road longer for no fault of your own.

Imagine getting stuck for 6 hours stand-still on motorway, because of some stupid protest and then having to pay extra for your misfortune of being on wrong place on wrong time.

Now... ok maybe not all is doom and gloom, because if overall one does not many miles (like me), then maybe it works out cheaper than paying for whole year up-front... but I am not that optimistic. I am sure they not introducing this tax to make it cheaper for everyone and taxes in general don't tend to go down.

dutchie01 · January 6, 2022

Once such a system is workable it will be a tool the powers that be can use in every way they want. For instance an ISF 8 pot could be charged 10 times the price of an electric UX. And if info streams one way it can go the other as well... 30 mile zone and all of a sudden your car will not go faster. Main hurdle will be privacy but then again your Iphone already gives your location away now so..

Linas.P · January 6, 2022

Yes, but the difference is that currently they can't spy on you for evidence, so even if they get data from your phone it can't be used against you (yet). What ISA does, is the system which is designed exactly for that - to have tracking device in car which would work as evidence for punishment.

As for speed limiter, yes indeed it will be hard stop for speeding, but for time being one would be able to override it (I would not expect that to last for long), just perhaps every time such behaviour will be logged on your Social Credit Score, next to your vaxshine jabs count.

Trying to tie it back to the topic, they may charge EV owners more for driving in winter, because why not!? Our catch-out people for illicit charging points, because if you driving everyday and you "official" charging point does not report any use then you must be getting electricity in some other way - "you damn criminal!".

Malc · January 6, 2022

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Imagine getting stuck for 6 hours stand-still on motorway, because of some stupid protest and then having to pay extra for your misfortune of being on wrong place on wrong time.

Nah . run 'em all over I say ........ clear the roads pronto of the protesters .......... then no excuse to get stuck for 6 hrs anywhere ..... push 'em to the side of the roads, don't clog up with ambulances ............. treat 'em simply as " necessary " roadkill :wink3:

Malc

Linas.P · January 6, 2022

1 minute ago, Malc said:

Nah . run 'em all over I say ........ clear the roads pronto of the protesters .......... then no excuse to get stuck for 6 hrs anywhere ..... push 'em to the side of the roads, don't clog up with ambulances ............. treat 'em simply as " necessary " roadkill

Malc

It will make financial sense soon!

Las Palmas · January 6, 2022

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

That exactly is how roadpricing was launched as an idea more than a decade ago, to avoid trafficjams. Idea beeing to make it more expensive in rush hour or certain roads so people will drive outside of peak hours. Idea of course totally crashed as people in most cases have no choice or simply avoid highways and drive from village to village with all consequenses attached.

For us, when going from Cadiz to Denmark, small roads between smaller towns have been the way to travel for many years. More beautiful scenery and better and cheaper restaurants and hotels on the way than on the despicable highways where you even have to pay for driving.