EV range in winter

[Herbie]

Just spotted this article and thought it interesting. We all know that winter can be hard on batteries but we usually speak in terms of the standard 12V item. It's going to be very different when the whole car is powered purely by batteries:

[First_Lexus]

I know of one friend who kept their new - and expensive - Jaguar EV for only two months as the EV range in the real world was less than 50% of what was promised. They’ve exchanged it for a plug-in hybrid instead…

[peniole]

Not the least bit surprising the range hit BEVs take in winter, even ones with heat pumps. A fact that is constantly glossed over. Then you have the cost of charging (public chargers per mile cost are on par with hybrid fuel costs and that's not taking into account higher purchase prices). The final nail in the coffin of current BEV tech is the loss of range over the car's lifetime. The just aren't there yet to be one's only mode of transport. Maybe once they move to SS batteries, or have a scalable viable way to store hydrogen that doesn't require such high pressure.

[ganzoom]

This is the 7th winter we've had an EV as our main family car. Our current EV will have been with us for 5 years come March 2022. It so much better than our Lexus as a family car the Lexus is confined to doing essentially the same 10 mile commute for my wife, pretty much every other trip is done in the EV, summer or winter makes no difference. 

 

[Las Palmas]

23 hours ago, peniole said:

Not the least bit surprising the range hit BEVs take in winter, even ones with heat pumps. A fact that is constantly glossed over. Then you have the cost of charging (public chargers per mile cost are on par with hybrid fuel costs and that's not taking into account higher purchase prices). The final nail in the coffin of current BEV tech is the loss of range over the car's lifetime. The just aren't there yet to be one's only mode of transport. Maybe once they move to SS batteries, or have a scalable viable way to store hydrogen that doesn't require such high pressure.

Before they get batteries that could make an electric car useful as only car in family, you will be able to get a car with hydrogen cells or if we are really lucky a car with a combustion engine fuelled with hydrogen.

[ganzoom]

54 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Before they get batteries that could make an electric car useful as only car in family, you will be able to get a car with hydrogen cells or if we are really lucky a car with a combustion engine fuelled with hydrogen.

You must be living in some kind of fantasy land, in the UK EVs have already over taken diesels in new car sales this year. By the end of next year I suspect they will be within 50% of petrol car sales, and by 2025 likely overtaken petrol car sales. Hydrogen cell car sales are so tiny they aren't even mentioned. 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

[ColinBarber]

On 1/2/2022 at 7:37 PM, First_Lexus said:

I know of one friend who kept their new - and expensive - Jaguar EV for only two months as the EV range in the real world was less than 50% of what was promised. They’ve exchanged it for a plug-in hybrid instead…

The Jag was ok when it came out in 2018 but really hasn't been updated. It's main negative has always been its efficiency/range.

On 1/2/2022 at 7:41 PM, peniole said:

The final nail in the coffin of current BEV tech is the loss of range over the car's lifetime

The newer LFP batteries seem to lose less than 1% per year so that isn't really an issue on those vehicles. They just need to continue in improving LFP capacity so range improves.

[peniole]

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

You must be living in some kind of fantasy land, in the UK EVs have already over taken diesels in new car sales this year. By the end of next year I suspect they will be within 50% of petrol car sales, and by 2025 likely overtaken petrol car sales. Hydrogen cell car sales are so tiny they aren't even mentioned. 

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

Nice link, but that's just November that they overtook the diesels, scroll down to the YTD and there's still a 60k gap. Overall they're still just 10.6% of all YTD sales compared to 14.7% diesels; the rest of that pie goes to the various petrol/hybrid guises at 74.7%.

I like BEVs, we have a Tesla model S since 2017, which fits my father's retired needs, they just aren't quite there yet for the majority, wish they were.

[peniole]

14 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

The newer LFP batteries seem to lose less than 1% per year so that isn't really an issue on those vehicles. They just need to continue in improving LFP capacity so range improves.

Good step for cheaper mass production, agree, really want to see a scale up production run of their tabless batteries.

[RichGS11]

I can't say my family have ever had an issue with their Teslas in the cold Norwegian winters. I did ask about Battery performance in the winter and they marked no obvious difference and they've been EV for the past 4 years. Perhaps some cars are more susceptible to exposure than others.

[ColinBarber]

1 minute ago, RichGS11 said:

I can't say my family have ever had an issue with their Teslas in the cold Norwegian winters. I did ask about battery performance in the winter and they marked no obvious difference and they've been EV for the past 4 years. Perhaps some cars are more susceptible to exposure than others.

The article in the OP was for a Leaf, which has poor to no thermal Battery management so is greatly affected. Most modern EVs don't have such a hit in the winter. Speed, wind and rain are the things that really impact range more than temperature.

[peniole]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

The article in the OP was for a Leaf, which has poor to no thermal battery management so is greatly affected. Most modern EVs don't have such a hit in the winter. Speed, wind and rain are the things that really impact range more than temperature.

https://insideevs.com/news/550021/cold-lfp-battery-tesla-model3/

Depends on where it's parked overnight, can in worse case scenarios affect charging.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, RichGS11 said:

I can't say my family have ever had an issue with their Teslas in the cold Norwegian winters. I did ask about battery performance in the winter and they marked no obvious difference and they've been EV for the past 4 years. Perhaps some cars are more susceptible to exposure than others.

Many Tesla owners are quite religious when it comes to the brand so they won't ever admit any issue, even very obvious ones. Perhaps Tesla is not hit at badly as Leaf, but they sill impacted significantly by cold. As other mentioned, if car is garaged then it won't be as bad as if it is left in -30C outside.

As for Jag not getting even 50% of claimed range, it is kind of the same thing as most cars not getting advertised MPG. To get anywhere near the claimed range one has to drive BEV like absolute spartan, hence you often will see Tesla on motorway trailing the truck at 55MPH, with AC-off, music-off, lights-off, heater-off and then they have dare to have smug face after suffering for hours driving like in 1920s.

Quite obviously, even ICE or PHEV range is affected by winter, but when running on normal fuel it does not matter - 2 min and you have another 300miles. And you can have AC, music and all comforts you want and still travel at 90MPH+ if laws permits. 

Other thing to consider is what sort of driving people are doing, if they have Tesla with 200+ Miles range and live in the city or in suburbs, which at most going to be 30 Miles of driving, then obviously nobody cares whenever total range in the morning was 200miles or 260miles.

Finally, as for increasing LFP capacity - that is unsustainable, it basically means using even more lithium and other rare metal, and polluting methods. It is unsustainable as it is and even if we find way of how to put even more lithium into same space how that going to help when cars with even current Battery capacity (and at current low numbers) will consume all the available lithium in 20-25 years. 

[dutchie01]

I dont think the range is the issue, its the charging. My old school fossil car outside shows 140km range and i just dont care as i know i can fill it up literally everywhere.

[First_Lexus]

11 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Most modern EVs don't have such a hit in the winter.

Both Renault and VW have (well, had) an online calculator where you could input likely speed, outside temperature, whether you’d be using aircon etc. They then gave an approximate ‘realistic’ range vs published figures.

I did consider an EV when I changed, but using those calculators - both of which showed a very significant drop in Winter range, especially at motorway speeds - I decided against. That, coupled with discussions with dealers about what range I could really expect and the lack of charging infrastructure convinced me to stay hybrid. I regularly complete a 250 mile round trip, 90% of which is motorway.

As others have said, EVs seem good and they will improve (hopefully fast) but they don’t suit everybody right now. I’m almost sure my next car in 3-4 years will be an EV but by then I’ll be (almost) retired and my driving will be mainly local.

A Tesla would possibly have overcome the range issues - at a price - but the factor that influenced me against them was the lack of real dealers and the reliance on technology with their products. I’m not ready to make that leap just yet!

[First_Lexus]

37 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

I dont think the range is the issue, its the charging. My old school fossil car outside shows 140km range and i just dont care as i know i can fill it up literally everywhere.

^^ Another person I know needed a 15 minute top up (to get to 80%) over Christmas travels. He had to wait three hours for the only working charger on the M5 services he was at. He was philosophical (loves his Kia EV) but it shows how far we’ve got to go to get the right infrastructure to support people making the change.

[dutchie01]

The 2021 salesfigures from NORWAY are just in and they blew my mind.

of total cars sold in Norway..

BEV         65%

Plug In    20.8%

Hybrid    5.5%

Petrol      4.2%

Diesel      4.0%

 

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The 2021 salesfigures from NORWAY are just in and they blew my mind.

of total cars sold in Norway..

BEV         65%

Plug In    20.8%

Hybrid    5.5%

Petrol      4.2%

Diesel      4.0%

Just shows how taxation impacts personal choice. Car tax is just crazy in Norway and fuel is most expensive in the world, so somehow I am not surprised. 

Now I am not necessary support when government forces people to choose what to buy and what not to buy, in my opinion that is sign of totalitarism and not of free and working democracy. In democracy servant goverment exists only to do what people tells the to do (never happens in practice), when the government tells people what to do that is no longer a democracy.

As for improvement in range for BEVs, I think current "progress" is quite short sighted (even surprisingly to be honest), because the solution so far is to make larger Battery. That is no different from having "gas guzzler" 60s amurican truck and "solve" it's range issue by fitting much larger tank. Having more capacity for fuel does not address the issue with efficiency of the vehicle and importantly, considering that up-to 90% of BEVs pollution comes from manufacturing, and majority of manufacturing pollution comes from batteries... this means we just building more and more pollution into vehicles which suppose to help us to reduce it.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Many Tesla owners are quite religious when it comes to the brand so they won't ever admit any issue, even very obvious ones

Oh the irony Linas!!😀😀

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Derant said:

Oh the irony Linas!!😀😀

"Irony - the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."

Is it? 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

"Irony - the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."

Is it? 

I was suggesting that the qualities you stated in the original quote about never admitting any issues etc could certainly apply to you when I think back to some of the debates we have been involved in

it was meant in a light hearted friendly way

[Phil xxkr]

4 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The 2021 salesfigures from NORWAY are just in and they blew my mind.

of total cars sold in Norway..

BEV         65%

Plug In    20.8%

Hybrid    5.5%

Petrol      4.2%

Diesel      4.0%

 

What were the volume numbers compared to 2020 I wonder? 

[RichGS11]

5 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The 2021 salesfigures from NORWAY are just in and they blew my mind.

of total cars sold in Norway..

BEV         65%

Plug In    20.8%

Hybrid    5.5%

Petrol      4.2%

Diesel      4.0%

 

Yes the country is well and truly behind the push for electric and the infrastructure has been provided to do it. We went into the mountains (4 hours from Bergen) in the Model S and everywhere we went there were places to charge, parking fees were subsidised if you had electric and most spaces were electric. In a country that has the infrastructure you can see how BEVs can work. The only issue I saw last time I was in Norway was that Tesla were the only manufacturer producing BEVs to the numbers they were, meaning it was something like a Sci-fi film where everyone had the same car 🤣

My family there are not what you would call 'car nuts' and they're certainly not passionate about owning the Tesla (sits outside all year round), but it's a no brainer owning one in Norway. Yes the car taxation there is very expensive but my family are incredibly fortunate financially, including the circles they travel in, and could certainly own and run any car they wished, but they prefer the Tesla and its instant performance. 

[Linas.P]

Quite different - I may not be admitting that I am wrong, they are not admitting their cars have issues, even when they are quite clearly and openly suffering from them (we even have one Mushk preacher on this forum). So being protecting of yourself is not quite as being manipulated into blindly believing and protecting brand for no obvious reason.

[Linas.P]

25 minutes ago, RichGS11 said:

fees were subsidised

I don't see this as a good thing, if something is subsidised then the money should be taken from somewhere else. And because this is beneficial only for certain technology and the government pushing certain agenda it comes out wrong way. I don't think government should be deciding for people what they should have, or single out one technology over all others. Generally, I just don't think it is government business to decide, and particularly to boost sales of certain technology artificially.

In my opinion, product should be good enough on it's own merits, genuinely competitive in the market and then it will sell naturally, instead of being forced onto people by artificially making alternatives expensive and subsidising certain technology on the decisions of certain group of people. This does not help innovation, it rather stifles innovation.

I do agree that we need to invest into new technologies, maybe fund initial proof of concept, kick-start initiatives, public infrastructure etc.  but when it comes to subsidising BEV parking over non-BEV, removing tolls, charges etc. then it becomes discriminatory and one-sided. This is not something government should be involved in.