Should you buy a Lexus

[Phil xxkr]

Or is it just a glorified Toyota? The car care nut 

Just watched this on YouTube, worth a look, much more than yet another Downing Street depress fest 😎

[Mincey]

 

[Mincey]

What he says about the "bucket seats and hard ride" in the ES300h F Sport is not true. The ES F Sport seats and ride are significantly better than the IS F Sport equivalents. I don't think even Stevie Wonder would call the ES seats "bucket seats".

[Phil xxkr]

46 minutes ago, Mincey said:

What he says about the "bucket seats and hard ride" in the ES300h F Sport is not true. The ES F Sport seats and ride are significantly better than the IS F Sport equivalents. I don't think even Stevie Wonder would call the ES seats "bucket seats".

Could USA specs, (no pun intended) be different I wonder? 🤔

[Mincey]

6 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Could USA specs, (no pun intended) be different I wonder? 🤔

That's a good point. The typical American backside is larger than its European counterpart too, which may have some bearing on the matter.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Mincey
Learn to spell and proof-read Mincey!

[scudney]

 Everyone has an opinion and a platform for putting it across these days, l equally have a brain and can make up my own mind,glorified toyota or not I know what I would choose without a second thought 🤣

[Phil xxkr]

42 minutes ago, scudney said:

 Everyone has an opinion and a platform for putting it across these days, l equally have a brain and can make up my own mind,glorified toyota or not I know what I would choose without a second thought 🤣

At the risk of repetition, 

Employ your time in improving yourself by other men’s writings so that you shall come easily by what others have labored hard for.”
–Socrates

[Bounce75]

Interesting video, he does make a lot of sense, especially about buying a Lexus & leasing German Marque.

[Linas.P]

Generally speaking I would say - yes it is worth buying Lexus, because they in general use better materials, are more sporty, yet more comfortable (adaptive suspension or just in general better suspension tuning) and it is Lexus, I mean there is value just in the badge regardless if one values it or not.

However, that was the case when Lexus had dedicated or significantly enhanced cars like IS, RC and GS, those cars were not Toyota and did not have Toyota equivalence (more or less), sure they were still based on certain Toyota platforms and used many Toyota parts (which is good, they are reliable). Very important - they were RWD and Toyota's are FWD, this is one of key areas where driving dynamic comes from and why they felt better than Toyotas of similar size. 

However, when it comes to Toyota Avalon (ES), Auris (CT) or CHR (UX), it is definitely not worth buying Lexus, they are identical cars with cosmetic only changes and they feel exactly like equivalent Toyota would feel. Badge on these cars is worth just as much as plastic it is made from and unless you want to spend extra money to sit in Lexus dealership during the service and drink instant coffee from mug with Lexus logo and have little candy wrapped in Lexus wrap, then NO it definitely isn't worth the money.

Lexus RX and NX are kind of interesting in a sense that they are based on existing Toyota cars, but they are kind of improved significantly enough that they no longer feel like Toyota, the way they ride and plastics and sound insulation inside really makes them feel little bit more luxurious. Besides SUV market is very competitive and they are priced reasonably well, where getting RAV4 won't save significant amount of money over NX, especially considering options etc.

In the end the only 2 remaining cars which are true Lexus are LS and LC, and those are really worth every penny you spend and are on the league of their own which no Toyota could match.

So I guess in the end - it depends, what model, what year and what people want from their cars. 

[cruisermark]

I dont think there is a match for the older marques of Lexus such as LS400/430/600H and GS450H - the quality of material and workmanship is on another level and will not be repeated. The GS450H is a special car from what I have read on this forum. These cars were made when manufacturers were trying to make their name.

Nowadays car makers are really up against each other with new tech emerging faster than ever - newer models coming out in shorter spaces of time - we are really spoilt for choice. Now with the EV market growing we no longer to consider specs/problems related to IC engines.

I do wonder if the very new lexus are "special and distinguished" in the same sense.

[Alan305]

I think the market has changed anyway. When we bought our LS400 in 1996 there were few on the road and Lexus were determined to make owners feel special. Lexus Club Dinner/Dances, the RAC Club in Pall Mall, key note speakers Tarbuck and Jasper Carrot. As the numbers sold were small that was easy to manage. You bought a brand, not a car. LS400 sales in Europe in the first year were just 1,158. Same with our LS430, still not many around and the dealers paid a lot of attention. When we had a gearbox warranty recall we got flowers and chocolates from the dealer when the car was returned. (Thanks Lexus Sheffield)

The numbers success of the IS200 changed things but I believe the quality, and dealers, are still better that most. I had two Toyota and there was no real comparison to any of our Lexus. The Toyota were good, the Lexus just better.

When people say Skoda is better than Golf or Audi, realistically how can that really be true. There has to be spend compromises on materials and components, that's how marketing works.

It's also worth remembering how big the market for Lexus is in the USA, far bigger than Europe, hence many options are dictated by that market.

Fourth quarter sales of luxury cars in the USA were:

BMW = 278,7000
Lexus = 275,000
Merc  = 274,900

For many years Lexus out sold them both.

Here are the figures published by Lexus Europe, just over 1,006,710 in 30 years.

Model	Launch year	Units sold as of Sept 30, 2020
LS	1990	39,059
GS	1993	74,998
IS	1999	202,210
RX	2000	289,284
SC	2001	6,202
LX	2002	58,234
GX	2010	14,862
ES	2010	26,949
CT	2011	97,637
LFA	2011	38
NX	2014	155,366
RC	2015	7,083
LC	2017	1,816
UX	2019	32,972
TOTAL		1,006,710

[Mincey]

32 minutes ago, cruisermark said:

I do wonder if the very new lexus are "special and distinguished" in the same sense.

It's a shame that Covid has stopped me comparing Lexi to their Scheissewagen equivalents. My boss typically runs either an Audi or a Mercedes. He's never had a BMW - he isn't a complete fool, but whenever I went over to Europe on business (he's Dutch) he'd pick me up in his latest company car. His Merc was the first hybrid I'd encountered. I thought the dashboard was awful - looked like something out of a Fifties Diner. He has a new one now and he video calls me on Zoom/Teams from it, but I haven't been able to work out what it is yet. 

[peniole]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

However, when it comes to Toyota Avalon (ES)

Do they sell the avalon here in the UK?

[Linas.P]

37 minutes ago, peniole said:

Do they sell the avalon here in the UK?

They kind of do - it is called Lexus ES 😄 Just to be clear - I would not buy either, because FWD is instant deal-breaker for me, once that is mentioned I literally don't care what it is and what it does.

Sorry, I don't want to to be rude, it is just not car for me. To be fully informed I have tried it and it only left me feelings ranging from unimpressed and disappointed. Obviously, I was never a big fan of 300h drive train in any Lexus and to be fair being ES300h is least offensive, because it is FWD, so even having best engine in it would make absolutely no difference, so I just confirmed to myself it is not impressive, but I guess acceptable. And it went downhill from there, although interior was very solid and well built, the amount of plastic (especially hard plastic) was very noticeable and reminiscent of Toyota. As I said at the time - "if somebody would blind fold me and put it into ES, I would say it is definitely Toyota". It just didn't fee like Lexus and it didn't feel even remotely good enough as replacement for excellent mk4 GS. Sit in GS and then go for new ES and you feel like it instant downgrade before you even drive it. Obviously, get into ES from any other non-luxury car and it may feel rather nice.

I am not trying to trash ES, it is good Toyota and like the guy said in the video - being a Toyota is not a bad thing, but it is distinctively NOT Lexus. It as well was undermined by Lexus own branding - they pushed it as replacement for GS, competitor for BMW 5-Series and that was just unfair for the car. With GS and IS, Lexus specifically targeted what is known as "European style sports sedan", it is distinctive from what Americans have - they simply have "full-size sedan" which is distinctively NOT sporty and that is what ES is. That is why it is so popular in US, because it is the "normal" style of car americans are used to. GS and IS was specifically created as competitors to 5-Series and 3-Series and they are distinctively more sporty. So when Lexus tired to sell ES as 5-Series competitor, they basically undermined the car, because then I have to treat it as "large sports sedan" it isn't and it obviously falls very short of GS or BMW 5-Series, despite being about the same size, just not "sporty". If Lexus wouldn't have tried so hard to compromise this car with wrong marketing and just sold it as it's own thing, neither replacement for IS, nor GS, nor competitor for 5-Series, then it is ok car in it's own right - comparable to Audi A5 saloon, BMW 4-Series GC, Mercedes CLA and Volkswagen Areton.... sort of "mid-size 4-door coupe". 

[Rabbers]

Toyota builds better and more attractive cars than it once did while there are signs that Lexus' build and materials quality, though still high, is slipping - a tendency less noticeable to new buyers than long-term owners familiar with earlier generations of the cars.  Only the LS, recently, and the LC seem immune to criticism and remain generally accepted as being among the best-built cars in their categories.

Leaving aside  the two Lexus flagships and, at the other end of the scale, the Aygo and the Yaris, this has LED to the perception that the quality gap between the two ranges has been narrowed without there having been a corresponding reduction of the price gaps.  This means that potential customers for an ES, an UX or an NX, and perhaps an RX, need reassuring that they are not paying too much in respect of a Camry or, where available, an Avalon, or a RAV or a Highlander, all of them good cars capable of eroding the appeal a Lexus.  How much of a problem Toyota's corporate management considers this to be is difficult to say, but the recognition of a connected need for product rationalisation was certainly made clear when the IS, the GS, the RC, the CT and the Avensis were withdrawn from all or some regional markets with the declared intention, among others, of eliminating some product overlaps or duplications, real or perceived, that supposedly created doubts among potential customers.

Theoretically (and highly speculatively), there might well be a case for merging Toyota and Lexus into a single commercial entity (TOYOLEX?) with all product overlaps eliminated and, perhaps, with the LC and the LS spun off to form a new super-luxury marque along Maybach lines.  Or, equally theoretically, there could be a totally alternative case whereby the Lexus range might be radically distanced from Toyota's by means of an elimination of all industrial and technical commonalities, with quality substantially upgraded and prices equally substantially increased, even, perhaps, with all cars offered exclusively as maximum-spec or bespoke packages.

In other words, ambiguities and concomitant unproductive customer comparisons between the two brands will not be resolved by the continued use of different names but only by the elimination of one or, probably less workably, by a complete divorce between the two.

[Linas.P]

Some good point there Renato, as usual I agree with many but not all and that probably isn't an issue - after all each may have different opinion. Certainly good point about reduction of quality being noticeable for long term Lexus owners. Sadly, for me I never been in Lexus ownership before LS was launched (because that predates my birth), but I still can see noticeable drop in quality compared to even 10 years ago... and I assume it is probably even more noticeable compared to what Lexus represented as a brand before 2000.

I think other good point mentioned by few people, is that not only that Lexus quality is slipping, but that Toyota quality or at very least trim level has improved. All in all gap between Lexus and Toyota has really closed and it is becoming hard to see them apart. This sort of the point you making about just making it "ToyoLex" in the end, because what is the point of marking vehicles under different brands if they are inherently the same and don't offer substantial improvement or reduction in price either way.

Sorry to bring these two as examples as it is touchy for the owners, but being frank the ES and UX is epitome of this problem - Lexus cars which in most direct sense are badge engineered and offer no substantial improvement over Toyota counterpart. It does not mean they are bad cars, it just makes no sense to keep brands separate if there is so little in between the offering.

I personally would not support merger of Lexus/Toyota and I don't think it makes sense, but I agree that underlying issue needs to be resolved - i.e. Toyota has to get price cut and at the same time perhaps reduce trim levels to cater for lower end of the market and for people who don't care about any fancy equipment and just needs "appliance" to go from A to B, whereas for Lexus it needs to get distinctively more competitive in Technology, Luxury and Performance and the price should reflect that.

I guess the reason this started to happen is because Lexus don't have as comprehensive product range (especially in Europe) as Toyota does and therefore for some niches on the market which sometimes are particularly competitive Toyota has to offer products which caters to both budget and premium market as Lexus product does not exist to plug the latter niche. Then as result some Toyota models become way more luxurious then others and Toyota then have to try to be more consistent by improving equipment on all models. Which eventually leads into situation where we are now - Toyota is just so good that it is becoming hard to see what you get from Lexus apart of badge.

I am still not sure what GS or RC overlapped? GS was just not competitive, just because on paper BMW 5-Series was better and in practice GS had nothing extra to offer for most consumers who are leasing the cars for 3 years and don't care about long term reliability and dependability. GS was basically just overbuilt, over-engineered and as result too expensive and not competitive. Hybrid drive didn't help either because for people who care about performance simple petrol M5 was better and for those who don't  - simple 520d was better. RC on other hand probably was competing with LC... I can't see nay other car in Lexus/Toyota range where it would have overlapped. And probably it is true - RC was GT car, same as LC... RC was in no way more sporty, LC was in no way larger and apart of built quality there was not much in between the two. So why sell 2 similar cars and sell one cheaper than the other? I ideal world I feel like Lexus should have separated them more - RC lighter, more agile and sporty, LC larger and more practical. This became even more apparent with cancellation of RC convertible and introduction of LC convertible - both would have taken exactly same niche in market.

 

[dutchie01]

And now Lexus is becoming a full BEV producing company. Is that a big thing? Hmmm i guess so as Lexus could lose their main USP, reliability. a Petrol engine is complicated and lots of things can go wrong. Lexus did build a reputation on exactly the opposite, nothing went wrong. Enter an electric motor... nothing can go wrong.. The new competition for Lexus is coming from China, no longer from Germany.

[Guest]

I have had Toyota in the past, Avensis, and been very happy with it, like has been said nothing wrong with a Toyota, now on my second Lexus, an ES, and do I feel like I am in a Lexus….a step up from a Toyota, yes, absolutely I do, it feels a very special place to be in terms of quietness, ride, quality etc. All in the eyes of the beholder obviously 
 

In a way all cars have 4 wheels, seats, windows and a method of propulsion so you could say why don’t we all buy Dacia Sanderos or whatever the current cheapest car is.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Derant said:

In a way all cars have 4 wheels, seats, windows and a method of propulsion so you could say why don’t we all buy Dacia Sanderos or whatever the current cheapest car is.

And that is exactly a reason why brands like Lexus exists - to serve the people for whom the car is more than just that. As such it is very important to maintain "purity" of the brand to justify it's existence, and if such brands starts to make too basic, too boring and too unexciting car then indeed it becomes race to the bottom at which point one may argue the cheapest is the best and thus Dacia wins.

For me it seems that Toyota should focus on value - i.e. delivering most dependable, reliable and simple car in the market niche where the volumes are the highest.. I guess at this point it would be some sort of PHEV/BEV/HCEV small SUV and they should build them in millions to make the profits and the margins whilst selling them at affordable price. Which is kind of what they are doing, but I would argue their prices are not low enough.

Whereas Lexus should focus at various niches where volumes are low, but expectations are high - coupe, convertible, limos, large luxury SUVs.. which again they were kind of doing, but then they introduced few questionable models which really diluted the brand, IS220d, CT200h, IS mk3 when launched with a lot of very very basic trim levels and generally speaking Lexus trim levels makes no sense to this day. They kind of undecided if they are in Luxury game or not. So unless you take Takumi or F-Sport + Takumi then sometimes really basic and questionable things are missing. I mean even leather isn't real leather in most trims and that to me is not a sign of Luxury car.

[talaipwros]

13 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Enter an electric motor... nothing can go wrong..

Seriously now? I had to return an ID3 cause everything went wrong

[Alan305]

13 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

Seriously now? I had to return an ID3 cause everything went wrong

That’s the point, my brief months with a Passat CC were poor. Five warranty issues from new just ignored at service. Managers response well just book it in again. Ditto my wife’s 3 series, hard plastic, warranty issues and service visits not enjoyable. When she swopped to an is200 she had NO warranty issues or problems in 76,000 miles over 9 years.

Why would Toyota merge with Lexus, just makes no marketing sense after building such a brand?

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Alan305 said:

That’s the point, my brief months with a Passat CC were poor. Five warranty issues from new just ignored at service. Managers response well just book it in again. Ditto my wife’s 3 series, hard plastic, warranty issues and service visits not enjoyable. When she swopped to an is200 she had NO warranty issues or problems in 76,000 miles over 9 years.

Why would Toyota merge with Lexus, just makes no marketing sense after building such a brand?

I think the point that at the age of ICVs building the brand of reliability was exceptional, but at the age of EVs this is likely to be much less of achievement. However... looking at how horrible are Teslas I am not sure I agree either, in other hand Tesla is not car company - so perhaps we need to way for proper manufacturers to really focus on this market. I honestly don't know because it never interested me, but for example are BMW i3s or Nissan Leafs (sort of last gen BEVs) are known for a lot of issues? 

And as to why they would merge - well that is hypothetical answer to this topic. Practically Toyota and Lexus cars are far too close in quality and equipment now to necessitate having Lexus as separate brand. As I said above, I would simply make sure that is not the case rather than merging brands, but looking at CT, UX or ES I really don't see why Lexus brand is needed, on other hand looking at LC and LS I really appreciate it existing. 

[Alan305]

Not sure either Toyota or Lexus marketing would agree with you.

In 2020 in the US Toyota sales were 1,837,900 with Lexus at 275,941. I don’t think it’s certain that a single brand would achieve the same total. I suggest each benefits the other.

Toyota the biggest car retailer in the US in 2020 for the ninth year running with RAV4 the best selling SUV for the 4th year.

Other brands have them, or have tried, Honda with Acura, Ford with Lincoln, Hyundai with Genesis, Nissan with Infiniti and so on. I’m not sure BMW would want to merge their RR brand with BMW.

[Rabbers]

On 12/18/2021 at 9:13 PM, Linas.P said:

I am still not sure what GS or RC overlapped? ...... RC on other hand probably was competing with LC... I can't see nay other car in Lexus/Toyota range where it would have overlapped. .... etc.

 

When Lexus decided to withdraw the IS, it was logical that the RC, as the coupé version, should have shared its fate.  The IS/RC, and the GS, were conceived when Lexus' commercial strategy, now abandoned in Europe, was to be present in most of the market categories historically occupied by Mercedes, BMW and Audi.  Seeing that these marques had coupés alongside some of their top-selling saloons, most notably Mercedes with the C- and E-Classes, Lexus followed suit with a coupé version of its own most popular saloon, the IS.  Had this me-too strategy been successful, which it clearly was not, we might eventually also have seen two-door versions of the CT and GS.

I am not sure that many people view the LC and the RC as having much in common beyond their badge and coupé configuration (and virtually unusable rear seating).  While the LC is so beautiful a creation in its own right that it arguably deserves to exist on the strength of successful design aesthetics alone, it was intended to attract customers away from the Mercedes SL, BMW 8, Audi R8 and some Porsche Carrera models - a category I once heard admirably described as "affordable supercars", namely desirable high-performance cars whose purchasers can't afford or simply won't stretch for a Ferrari or Lamborghini or Maclaren etc.  Nor am I sure, speaking as an RC owner, that I would ever compare my car to an LC without blushing, let alone think of myself as belonging to the latter group other than in my dreams.  

[Hamish2015]

Having owned German cars for the past 10 years I have just opted for a UX F Sport, I know that the platform and running gear are essentially CHR. That is where the similarity ends and both cars look entirely different to one and other. I shortlisted Volvo XC40, VW Tiguan / TRoc, BMW X1 and Mercedes A Class GLA. The Lexus offers a great deal of tech which is simply not included in the others without pushing the price way above 40k, hybrid capability is also a factor which heavily swayed me. My current BMW X3 M Sport is a great car and offers fantastic performance and MPG but its a diesel and I want away from them. Full EV is also a step too far financially and the lack of supporting infrastructure for charging etc. Cars are commodities and like everything else we all have different ideas about what we want, this is driven by many factors and is good otherwise life would be very boring.