All-Season Tyres - Sometimes Not Up To The Task?

[Rabbers]

Earlier today I was in a mini-convoy with four other cars headed for a festive lunch at a country restaurant some 18km from where we met up.  The weather was sunny but very cold, and although the road had been cleared and salted there were still frequent patches of ice and crunchy slush after yesterday's snow.  A BMW 530 LED the way in front of a VW Passat and an Alfa Giulia, and a Merc B180 brought up the rear behind my RC.  

When we reached the restaurant, the 530's occupants were already inside whereas I, and the friend behind me, had lost a bit of our earlier good cheer after struggling to maintain a safe braking distance behind cars that were visibly uncomfortable in the bends and curves.  Things became clear when we learned that they were running all-season tyres - Michelins in both cases - and not winters like the rest of us.  Though tempted, I won't point to this episode as being revelatory of a universal truth, but it was certainly a better advertisement for the latter than the former type of tyres.  That there should have been any noticeable difference in performance was unexpected since the conditions, while decidedly treacherous, were mainly snow-free and dry. 

On a more positive note I should record that the credibility of the Michelin brand was redeemed in our eyes when the star awarded to the restaurant by another arm of the company proved entirely justified.

[DBIZO]

What was the air temperature as reported by the computer, please?

[Rabbers]

3 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

What was the air temperature as reported by the computer, please?

-1 to +1 degrees C.

[DBIZO]

42 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

-1 to +1 degrees C.

Ok, I expected much lower. That's the sweet spot for all season compounds, so there should be no dropoff in performance. Could it be simply drivers on winters are generally more comfortable behind the wheel? Or were you pushing it around the bends? 

[dutchie01]

The Passat has considerably worse handling than the BMW and the Giulia driver cant drive?

[Las Palmas]

Michelin restaurants are usually close to being worth the astronomic amount it cost to eat there.

All season tyres are a compromise between summer and winter and very popular. Maybe because you are allowed to drive on them all year and changing tyres every time temperature goes a lot up or down is not really funny.

[Rabbers]

21 minutes ago, DBIZO said:

… Could it be simply drivers on winters are generally more comfortable behind the wheel?  …

I agree, based on my own general experience, that winter tyres inspire a good degree of confidence in adverse road conditions, actual or perceived, perhaps occasionally even more than they should.

[Rabbers]

24 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The Passat has considerably worse handling than the BMW and the Giulia driver cant drive?

Agree about the Passat, but the Giulia driver in this particular case usually drives almost as well as me. 

[Rabbers]

11 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Michelin restaurants are usually close to being worth the astronomic amount it cost to eat there.

But, after all, Christmas comes but once a year …

[DBIZO]

3 hours ago, Rabbers said:

I agree, based on my own general experience, that winter tyres inspire a good degree of confidence in adverse road conditions, actual or perceived, perhaps occasionally even more than they should.

It would take knowing the drivers and the cars to understand the why, but that could be a key factor that well played into it. It's not objective grip according to any data I've seen, but could be lack of feedback. When you don't feel for the tyres/road, you get anxious going into a corner or at high speeds. Probably the weakest point of the IS300h for me, it often lacks feel for road, at least on the OE Yokos. I never had understeer or any grip issues, must say, but you tend to question how much you've got left when neither your hands nor your bum inform you. So I can imagine that. Although I find it strange for the Giulia, but I've never driven one. I'm getting Pirelli SF2s fitted instead of winters for European drives (90% motorways), curious how different if at all will feel.

[dutchie01]

4 seasons are fine for moderate winter conditions, so i guess it totally depends on where you live. A little snow, heavy rain or cold temperatures all fine you can drive them all year round no need to swap twice a year which is costly and a nuisance really. On the other hand if you live in an area with heavy snow every winter there is just no getting around full winter tires. The profile is deeper and designed for those conditions. Mountains or hills.. winters.

Ice is a different animal. Spikes will be your only savior.

[Las Palmas]

14 hours ago, Rabbers said:

But, after all, Christmas comes but once a year …

Many things happens once a year.

[Rabbers]

20 hours ago, DBIZO said:

It would take knowing the drivers and the cars to understand the why, but that could be a key factor that well played into it. It's not objective grip according to any data I've seen, but could be lack of feedback. When you don't feel for the tyres/road, you get anxious going into a corner or at high speeds. ......

10 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

4 seasons are fine for moderate winter conditions, so i guess it totally depends on where you live. A little snow, heavy rain or cold temperatures all fine you can drive them all year round no need to swap twice a year which is costly and a nuisance really. On the other hand if you live in an area with heavy snow every winter there is just no getting around full winter tires. ....

 

I believe all-season tyres are not available for my RC but, because snowfalls where I live tend to be severe when they occur, winters would in any case remain my tyre type of choice if only for peace of mind.  I have no experience of all-seasons or any technical knowledge of them outside of manufacturers' claims, so I didn't presume to assess their merits in my OP.  However, leaving aside obvious variables such as the qualities of cars and the skills of their drivers and, perhaps most importantly, the psychology and behaviour of individual drivers in given conditions, the fact remains that I observed two cars without winter tyres having more trouble on a potentially treacherous but fairly routine cold-weather drive than three cars with them.  Therefore, should the day ever come when I could choose all-season tyres, which at this time of writing would require me not only to get another car but also to move to another place, the memory of this particular drive would inevitably influence my decision, more likely than not negatively.

[Las Palmas]

Winter tyres for winter: +++++

All season for: Many places where temperature often change between summer and not going down to real winter. Many places.

Summer tyres for where we live. Temperature never (while we have been living here) get below 15 degrees Celsius as long as we stay below 1000 m above sea level. 2000 m up there has been a couple of millimetres snow a couple of times, and never lasting more than a few days, while we have been living here. 16 years.