Americans want everything

[scudney]

The mazda zedos 6 had a V6 as I have owned 2 in the past lol 😆 

[MartinH]

5 minutes ago, scudney said:

The mazda zedos 6 had a V6 as I have owned 2 in the past lol 😆 

Yh was pretty nice wasn't it? And as the ad shows, a very light cabin, with lots of glass.

[Linas.P]

In the add it is Xedos 9. Apparently, Mazda had plans to create Luxury department (Amani) same as Lexus is for Toyota and Xedos 6 and 9 mean to be Amani 500 and 800 respectively, Amani 1000 was as well planned. Xedos 6 was BMW 3 competitor, so sort of Lexus IS equivalent, before Lexus IS existed. As far as I can remember Xedos 6 was way more luxurious than equivalent Mazda 626, so it just makes sense that it was meant to be Luxury car. Sadly, Mazda failed to market it properly and the whole thing failed by early 2000s. 

I always wanted Xedos 6 as well, but never really managed to get one. The V6 in it was 2L, so not the same as 2.25L Miller cycle engine. The closest I got to Xedos was 2L V6 Xedos engine swap into Mazda MX3 which I had at 16 years old. It was direct swap and more than doubled the power of the car which originally came with 1.3 and 1.6L (mine was 1.3, because B1 license conditions). 

[johnatg]

Yeah..the Xedos 9 was marketed as the Mazda Millenia in USA. The proposed brand name in Japan was Amati but it never saw the light of day and the cars were marketed in Japan and Oz mainly under the Eunos brand name (Eunos was supposed to be the upmarket brand of cars which were 'fun to drive'. Only the Roadster really lived up to that!). The Eunos brand was also ditched - in 1997. The 'Xedos' models then were called Mazda everywhere.

Most if not all Xedos 6 in UK had the 2L v6 - and you're right Linas - only the Xedos 9 had the Miller cycle 2.3L V6. (It was then the only car in the world to use the Miller cycle. Subsequently the Mazda Demio and Mazda2 used it at one time (not the V6 - just a stright 4 Miller)

[Thelongterm]

On 12/9/2021 at 10:51 PM, NeilS said:

I think it depends on what cars have been owned previously, as the tendency is to compare them to your latest purchase. Also, expectation v reality can sometimes be two different entities. 

Agree. I came to the IS250 from a newer Yaris MK2 99bhp manual, and I got the IS because I wanted comfort, the auto box and a similar level of dependability you get with the Yaris. Considering that most cars on the road with you have less than 204 horses under the bonnet it's laughable to describe it as slow.

If you need to get away from other road users then the IS do the job in the best way possible. If you need to go up steep hills like we have around here, it does a remarkable job. 

[LittleCasper]

5 hours ago, Thelongterm said:

Agree. I came to the IS250 from a newer Yaris MK2 99bhp manual, and I got the IS because I wanted comfort, the auto box and a similar level of dependability you get with the Yaris. Considering that most cars on the road with you have less than 204 horses under the bonnet it's laughable to describe it as slow.

If you need to get away from other road users then the IS do the job in the best way possible. If you need to go up steep hills like we have around here, it does a remarkable job. 

If the is250 is slow with 200bhp, I wonder what these people think about most Fords Having 125bhp. 

[NeilS]

It's all about power to weight ratio. 😉

[LittleCasper]

2 minutes ago, NeilS said:

It's all about power to weight ratio. 😉

 I agree although aren't most new cars pretty heavy with all their safety equipment? An old Toyota Celica with 140bhp is pretty nuts tbh, the old gen 1 Ford puma is pretty good too; you can have quite a bit of fun in them both and I wouldn't exactly say they're slow and if anything I'd say they're fast especially in the twisties.

I can't just define a car as slow unless it's actually slow. I'd say the is250 has adequate power and anything more would probably be a waste considering the average driver doesn't rag their car everywhere, to be a usable product you'd want reasonable fuel economy as well too. 

I get the feeling that Americans just like to have a d!ck measuring contests, they do it with the whole V6 vs V8 rubbish when talking about their crappy "muscle" cars when most of them can't even use half the power.

I mean the IS250 is tuned to be smooth & relaxing right? Maybe they're just used to that jerky feeling of a crappy made in american transmission. Some of the fastest bikes and cars I've ever been in/on don't feel like they're going fast when giving it the beans.

 

[ColinBarber]

11 minutes ago, LittleCasper said:

I'd say the is250 has adequate power and anything more would probably be a waste considering the average driver doesn't rag their car everywhere

I'd put it as the IS250 had adequate to good power based on the demographic Lexus were intended to sell to.

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

I'd put it as the IS250 had adequate to good power based on the demographic Lexus were intended to sell to.

But ... didn't Lexus intended to wider the demographics with IS250 i.e. exactly brake the rule that only older people drives it and attract younger buyers with sportier cars? I know that they said that for a fact when launched IS-F, LF-A and F-Sport brand... but wasn't the IS the beginning?

36 minutes ago, LittleCasper said:

I can't just define a car as slow unless it's actually slow.

As there is something fundamentally wrong with this statement - how can you say if car is fast or slow, if such thing can't be defined?! I tried to define this previously based on factual stats applicable to this segment and I just got a lot of people in mk3 forum royally ****, because people can't accept facts they don't agree with. My logic was that as entry luxury car IS300h could defined as fast or as slow based on average speed of other entry luxury cars models available to buy. Yes sure - you can argue it is arbitrary definition and it is, but any definition will be arbitrary in this case.

I mean feel free to find your own definition, but at least at the moment you can't argue car isn't slow and other people can't argue it isn't fast unless they at least define how they got to this conclusion.

Based on my definition it is slow - BMW 3-Series ranges averages 7.8s and MB C-Class 7.7s... so Lexus IS is at least "slower". The silver lining in this case is that healthy IS250 could do 0-60 in 7.5s any day and V6 sounds way better than competition. If it would be truly 8.2s then I guess my opinion would be different. As I said I didn't find it particularly fast even my first one back in 2012, but it wasn't offensively slow like another Lexus which I won't mention because we have very sensitive member in another forum. 

Here I would point out as well, that UK is strange country - IS is considered large "luxo barge" here, whereas everywhere else it is considered small-entry level luxury car. In US cars like Lexus IS or BMW 3-Series is considered something that teenagers drive to college perhaps as their first car, in UK it is considered as something established businessman drives to the meeting, because our cars are just way way smaller on average. And I don't speak about US only, even in Europe cars are way bigger or at least there is no stigma and no artificial barriers to own more powerful car. 

[MartinH]

4 hours ago, LittleCasper said:

the average driver doesn't rag their car everywhere

Well as a city dweller who walks a good deal, and a cyclist too, I feel that is right and proper. The public highway is the wrong place for 'ragging' any vehicle.

[dutchie01]

The IS 250 6 cylinder was the best shot Lexus got at the 3 series. With hindsight i now think they should have used the IS 350 for this instead of the 250.

My main gripe with the 250 always was that nothing happens below 4000 rpm. No torque available. Pro is the refinement of the engine. No vibrations, silent running at idle and a wonderful sound when flooring it. Fast it isnt also not in its days but a great engine it is. Would like to try the 350 though.

On topic to the americans.  The cost of motoring overthere changes everything. Petrol for free and carprices at minus 110 % compared to here. Who even cares about fuel consumption? you can get a 600hp monster for the price of a nice Golf overhere so i do understand their love for big engines. If the options are available why not go for it? 

[Las Palmas]

On 12/9/2021 at 2:25 PM, LittleCasper said:

I'd rather not have a DSG tbh, too many problems with earlier models of them.

Our Golf had oil changed in the DSG at 100.000 and we departed from it at 200.000 and the DSG never had a problem.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Petrol for free and carprices at minus 110 % compared to here. Who even cares about fuel consumption? 

Petrol is free indeed, but car prices in US are much higher than in U, and even Europe. Say 2006 Lexus IS costs ~8000-10000 USD in US (7500GBP), ~3000GBP in UK or ~6000EUR (5000GBP) in Europe. So the purchase price is not the saving, however there is other aspect - total cost of ownership, insurance alone in UK could easily be £2000 a year, especially for younger person, fuel is expensive... so what is goo that you can get car for £3000, when you have to pay £4500 every year on running cost. Whereas in US they pay £7500 and spend money basically only on fuel and whatever little maintenance it needs. In Europe it kind of depends - there are countries with £90 insurance per year, there are other with more expensive insurance (probably still nowhere near as expensive as UK), then there are countries like Ireland where both insurance and as well road tax are very expensive, and there are countries without road tax and cheap insurance - so it really depends where you are in Europe. And I guess all that combined dictates the prices - the more expensive are the running cost the quicker the cars depreciate, where expenses on running older car are not high, the cars keeps value for longer.

[dephrank]

When searching for an IS to purchase, I looked for the 350 but discovered it wasn’t sold in the U.K ☹️. I could still get my hands on a 350 but it’s imported, buttons on the dash are Japanese and insurance premium is over double what I’m currently paying. I don’t rag my cars but it’s nice to have some power when you need it at a moment's notice. That being said, this Saturday, for the first time, I engaged the power mode on the 250 at a roundabout this weekend and boyyyy, did I love that sound/response. Now that, put a smile on my face. An IS350 leaves a lot to the imagination. 

[LittleCasper]

47 minutes ago, dephrank said:

When searching for an IS to purchase, I looked for the 350 but discovered it wasn’t sold in the U.K ☹️. I could still get my hands on a 350 but it’s imported, buttons on the dash are Japanese and insurance premium is over double what I’m currently paying. I don’t rag my cars but it’s nice to have some power when you need it at a moment's notice. That being said, this Saturday, for the first time, I engaged the power mode on the 250 at a roundabout this weekend and boyyyy, did I love that sound/response. Now that, put a smile on my face. An IS350 leaves a lot to the imagination. 

I don't think I'd want a car with too much power, it's too much fun reving out a car and using everything it's got; the same goes with motorcycles.

[dephrank]

@LittleCasper The 350 would be perfect for motorway journeys. There’s plenty to keep one in check on London roads. For example, cyclists, motorbikes, pedestrians - school kids, elderly folk and the zombies with noise cancellation headphones - and now add scooters to the mix. With great power comes great revsponbility. 

[Linas.P]

12 hours ago, LittleCasper said:

I don't think I'd want a car with too much power, it's too much fun reving out a car and using everything it's got; the same goes with motorcycles.

It doesn't hurt to have spare power when you don't need it, but it definitely hurts when you need it and don't have it.

To my surprise the most "natural" car I have driven and most relaxing was LC500, despite it being 5L V8 with nearly 500hp - but maybe that is my expectation for acceptable performance... It is confident inspiring, it is plenty fast enough even at 10% of throttle and it is quiet, yet sounds good just cruising. This is true Luxury - when you satisfied with car performance without needing to rag it and sadly IS250 does not provide that. That does not make it "slow", but it isn't "effortlessly fast" either. I guess it is probably knowing yourself - if one can't live without revving very single last RPM of everything.

I think it goes back to point that this is highly personal thing and no car can be just generally boxed into definition of "fast or slow", especially such "middle of the pack" cars like IS250.

[eleveneleven]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:41 PM, dutchie01 said:

The IS 250 6 cylinder was the best shot Lexus got at the 3 series. With hindsight i now think they should have used the IS 350 for this instead of the 250.

My main gripe with the 250 always was that nothing happens below 4000 rpm. No torque available. Pro is the refinement of the engine. No vibrations, silent running at idle and a wonderful sound when flooring it. Fast it isnt also not in its days but a great engine it is. Would like to try the 350 though.

On topic to the americans.  The cost of motoring overthere changes everything. Petrol for free and carprices at minus 110 % compared to here. Who even cares about fuel consumption? you can get a 600hp monster for the price of a nice Golf overhere so i do understand their love for big engines. If the options are available why not go for it? 

I agree, ^^  Lexus didn't quite get the sporty thing right (with the 250) but it still turned out to be an amazing car all round, feels more like a baby GS300/C class alternative than a 3 series rival.  Not the type of car you'd take out on a Sunday Morning B road blast but plenty quick enough for getting about in.

Like a Honda of similar vintage it does it's best work at the top and likes to be revved out (sounds good too) does the comfortable/near silent cruising thing better than most modern cars. Would have gotten a 330i if outright performance was the aim but it would more than likely be sat in a garage right about now, with the mechanic typing up nice big bill for me.

The 250 is considered a "Baby V6" in America its a very popular "first car" for teenagers/students etc with the 350 being the more grown up, sportier version, so it's deemed slow in comparison. Could also be the fact that they generally use lower octane fuel (87) which I'm guessing is why they have way more issues with Carbon build up than we do over here. Premium fuel makes quite a noticeable performance (IMO) difference in these cars 

@Linas.P Nobody considers a 250 to be a "large luxo barge" here. It's looked at and was marketed as as "compact executive saloon"
It's known to be an entry level luxury car but a luxury car nonetheless, a clear step above your Vauxhalls, Hondas, Fords etc. My dad bought his 250 new 11 years ago. To him a Large Luxo barge was a 5 series or E-class which he wanted but couldn't quite afford. 

 

[MartinH]

Ah, premium fuel. Here we go again! Can we use E10 petrol in our early-build IS250 cars? Lexus's advisory says no. I say yes, leastways in my own case because the entire fuel system at the top of the engine has been replaced with new, which has an anti-corrosion internal coating. So far, so good. As to lack of power — phooey!

[Linas.P]

34 minutes ago, eleveneleven said:

feels more like a baby GS300/C class alternative than a 3 series rival. 

it's best work at the top and likes to be revved out (sounds good too) does the comfortable/near silent cruising thing better than most modern cars.

The 250 is considered a "Baby V6" in America its a very popular "first car" for teenagers/students etc with the 350 being the more grown up, sportier version, so it's deemed slow in comparison.

@Linas.P Nobody considers a 250 to be a "large luxo barge" here. It's looked at and was marketed as as "compact executive saloon"
It's known to be an entry level luxury car but a luxury car nonetheless, a clear step above your Vauxhalls, Hondas, Fords etc. My dad bought his 250 new 11 years ago. To him a Large Luxo barge was a 5 series or E-class which he wanted but couldn't afford. 

 

Not quite sure what you mean - GS is equivalent of E-Class/5-Series, whereas C-Class/3-Series and IS are direct competitors, in entry luxury market. The true "luxo barge" is LS/7-Series/S-Class, whereas Class below that (GS etc) is large/sport saloon. 

I agree with your second paragraph, but it seems you are contradicting yourself in 3rd and 4th paragraphs. So on one hand we agree that in US it is bought by teenagers as first car, but then you say it is not considered "luxo barge here", despite OP kind of insisting it is and should not under any circumstance be compared with "sporty cars"... which to me indicates people look at them like way bigger car and way more luxury oriented then they are in other countries. IS - is entry luxury sports sedan, so being sporty and "fast" isn't unnatural for such car.

And even outside of this thread I have owned multiple IS250s... just got another one few weeks ago and I know how people look at it. "True Brits" always comments that it is "fancy car", "not sure I could afford to run such car" and "I am not sure I need such powerful, large, luxury car"... which for me not being "true brit" always sounds funny, because I consider it small and frugal daily runabout car, nothing fancy at all, just well put together comfortable, not offensively slow car. 

In most countries something like Passat/A4 is considered average car. Then obviously, there is fancier version of average car and that is where entry-luxury comes in 3-Series, C-Class and IS - same size but little bit sportier/luxurious. Amuricans have taste for bigger cars so their average car would be ~A6 range, CrownVic used to be staple in US (and that is large V8 sedan, definitely larger than Mondeo), hence they really liked ES - which isn't really 5-Series competitor, but it is "larger car".

Compare that to UK and it seems average motorists considers Fiesta/Focus as about average and anything larger than that is considered "large and luxurious". Now obviously that is generalisation and I can't get to every person's head, but that seems to be the case to me after many years driving in UK and comparing to Europe.

Quote

Could also be the fact that they generally use lower octane fuel (87) which I'm guessing is why they have way more issues with Carbon build up than we do over here. Premium fuel makes quite a noticeable performance difference in these cars 

And this is in particular is false US uses MON Octane rating and we use RON. 87 MON = 95 RON. So at least as far as rating is concerned they have same fuel.

[LittleCasper]

6 hours ago, dephrank said:

@LittleCasper The 350 would be perfect for motorway journeys. There’s plenty to keep one in check on London roads. For example, cyclists, motorbikes, pedestrians - school kids, elderly folk and the zombies with noise cancellation headphones - and now add scooters to the mix. With great power comes great revsponbility. 

Sorted, that's why my motorcycle is straight piped.

[LittleCasper]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Not quite sure what you mean - GS is equivalent of E-Class/5-Series, whereas C-Class/3-Series and IS are direct competitors, in entry luxury market. The true "luxo barge" is LS/7-Series/S-Class, whereas Class below that (GS etc) is large/sport saloon. 

I agree with your second paragraph, but it seems you are contradicting yourself in 3rd and 4th paragraphs. So on one hand we agree that in US it is bought by teenagers as first car, but then you say it is not considered "luxo barge here", despite OP kind of insisting it is and should not under any circumstance be compared with "sporty cars"... which to me indicates people look at them like way bigger car and way more luxury oriented then they are in other countries. IS - is entry luxury sports sedan, so being sporty and "fast" isn't unnatural for such car.

And even outside of this thread I have owned multiple IS250s... just got another one few weeks ago and I know how people look at it. "True Brits" always comments that it is "fancy car", "not sure I could afford to run such car" and "I am not sure I need such powerful, large, luxury car"... which for me not being "true brit" always sounds funny, because I consider it small and frugal daily runabout car, nothing fancy at all, just well put together comfortable, not offensively slow car. 

In most countries something like Passat/A4 is considered average car. Then obviously, there is fancier version of average car and that is where entry-luxury comes in 3-Series, C-Class and IS - same size but little bit sportier/luxurious. Amuricans have taste for bigger cars so their average car would be ~A6 range, CrownVic used to be staple in US (and that is large V8 sedan, definitely larger than Mondeo), hence they really liked ES - which isn't really 5-Series competitor, but it is "larger car".

Compare that to UK and it seems average motorists considers Fiesta/Focus as about average and anything larger than that is considered "large and luxurious". Now obviously that is generalisation and I can't get to every person's head, but that seems to be the case to me after many years driving in UK and comparing to Europe.

And this is in particular is false US uses MON Octane rating and we use RON. 87 MON = 95 RON. So at least as far as rating is concerned they have same fuel.

Do they have 99RON Shell V power then?

[Linas.P]

5 minutes ago, LittleCasper said:

Do they have 99RON Shell V power then?

They definitely have equivalent of that. 91 Octane in US ~ 98 Octane here. And you can see they even have 93... which is your super ultra duper 100 or something. I mean I generally have reservations about petrol quality in US, but at least where Octane ratings are concerned they are the same. US petrol is worse for other reasons and Octane isn't one of the, 

[johnatg]

They have Shell v-power nitro+, which is rated at 93 on the PON/AKI scale. It's probably equivalent to 97/98 RON which is what v-power is in most of the world. It's 100 in Germany and Italy, 99 in UK and Denmark.

But it has all the special detergent additives which are the key features of v-power and make it worth using even if the engine doesn't need the high octane rating (which most Lexus engines don't)