Lexus v. Toyota - A Fair Comparison?

[Rabbers]

In a recent thread about the new NX350h (see 2022 NX350h AWD - Quick Preview - NX300h etc. Forum) there was a comment about the car's interior being "too Toyota [with] too much RAV-4 DNA".  One can agree or disagree in the specific context, but the comment raises the broader question of why and how some of us tend to refer to Toyota when expressing an opinion - almost invariably a more or less negative one - about Lexus instead of judging the relative cars on their own individual merits.

Personally, I couldn't imagine myself driving along  in an NX and thinking that I might as well have bought a RAV, though I could easily see myself driving a RAV and wishing it was an NX.  And, similarly, I can't imagine that more than a few CT or IS or ES owners have ever been nagged by the thought that Toyota "equivalents" like a Corolla or Prius or Camry would have given them equal satisfaction.  To think otherwise would be to believe that, where models in the respective ranges overlap in size and purpose, Lexus customers are fooled into parting with their money while Toyota customers are getting a bargain.

The standard of materials, build and finish of the new NX is at least equal to that of any top-spec or F-Sport version of the IS or RC I have owned.  This is to say that things within my normal line of vision and reach are generally of high quality.  At the same time I know that on closer inspection I would almost certainly find, as I did in the IS and the RC, a few irritating blemishes in the form of crappy and potentially creaky plastics below knee level, which, fortunately and consolingly, I mainly wouldn't see except when cleaning the car.  And nor would I be unaware that, in addition to one or two design features that Lexus and Toyota have in common, there will be a few shared components such as switches, handles etc., (quite apart from mechanical parts under the bonnet).  But I would frankly in no way  be surprised by them, given that economies of scale, exchanges of design and engineering personnel, common training programmes, shared suppliers and parts inventories etc., are presumably normal practices within the Toyota Corporation and to a greater or lesser extent must affect the design and engineering of some of the cars.

While personally lacking the knowledge to understand the technicalities with which Lexus engineers and managers explain and justify differences between Lexus and Toyota, I can nevertheless rely on the evidence of my own eyes.  Having usually had nothing better to do when waiting to collect my car after servicing, I have for many years made it my habit to wander around my dealer's used-cars lot, the main section of which contains almost exclusively Toyota and Lexus vehicles.  Without fear of contradiction I can say that Lexus cars always, I repeat always, look better and fresher inside and outside than Toyotas of a comparable age.  Insofar as durability to a large extent depends on initial quality, as does reliability, I am satisfied that these factors, which are also reflected in speeds of depreciation, alone justify the significant price premium asked for a Lexus over a Toyota.  

 

 

[dutchie01]

On the other hand i think Toyota made some steps up in interior quality over the last years. The feel and look is definitely there and the new RAV4 is a fine example of this. Even the small Yaris or Yaris Cross are good cars for the price range. And what about the Camry or the new Mirai? that car could be marketed with a Lexus badge. If Toyota moved up can the same be said from lexus? It seems to me interior quality remained more or less the same at most. My IS250 six cylinder definitely felt more lexus than toyota but on my IS300H i am not so sure. I took a brand new ES300H out for a day recently and i did not find the interior Lexus worthy. The materials and feel were all a bit cheap for a premium brand and i would expect more from Lexus. I have not seen the new NX yet and am curious but from pictures there are definitely parallels between the RAV and the NX. It is a thin line and has to do with cost also other manufacturers are sometimes struggling with. The new Audi Q4 electric car is more VW Polo inside than Audi for instance. If Lexus gets compared with Toyota something is clearly wrong. I remember the same question on this forum about why to go for an ES and not the Camry. Maybe Toyota and Lexus are getting too close together?

[wharfhouse]

I purchased my IS 300h as a follow on to many years of German (mainly BMW) cars. I wanted something different as I had become "bored" of BMWs so was looking for something left field with a notable on the road different look - something a bit more "unique". However, reliability was also a key feature (as I use my car for business too) which ruled out a few of the other left field choices. The idea of a hybrid had also appealed to me for some time as well. After a day test drive, the IS 300h fit the bill perfectly and I bought one the very next day. I had also considered many other brands (including Toyota) but IMHO the IS 300h was much more than the sum of its parts. This is a difficult thing to put into words but I just didn't feel the same about the other cars I considered even though many of them had some appealing features. However, in buying Lexus it did swing my thoughts when my wife needed a new small car (mostly local use whereas my car does long distances for business and family outings) and we purchased a Toyota Yaris for her - yes, we could have gone for the CT 200h for example but in her case the Yaris was the better fit. So, IMHO it's all about horses for courses. When I come to change the IS 300h, given there is no natural Lexus replacement, I will be taking another look at what is on the market again at that time and will choose the best fit for my needs at that time. After 5 years and 70K miles I have been mightily impressed with the IS 300h which has certainly lived up to and even exceeded my expectations (being more than the sum of its parts) - so much so that I don't want to part with it at the moment especially given the lack of a natural Lexus IS successor. On paper (or even in the head) a Toyota would make good sense when I change (for many of the reasons we purchased the Yaris), but I just don't get the vibes from any current Toyota I had for the IS 300h. Will Lexus have something that ticks all those boxes again when I change, time will tell... Buying a car can of course be a completely rational pros and cons exercise - after all they all get you from A to B, but sometimes the heart also needs to have a vote which if allowed can lead one down a different path that can't so easily rationalised...

[Las Palmas]

10 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

I purchased my IS 300h as a follow on to many years of German (mainly BMW) cars. I wanted something different as I had become "bored" of BMWs so was looking for something left field with a notable on the road different look - something a bit more "unique". However, reliability was also a key feature (as I use my car for business too) which ruled out a few of the other left field choices. The idea of a hybrid had also appealed to me for some time as well. After a day test drive, the IS 300h fit the bill perfectly and I bought one the very next day. I had also considered many other brands (including Toyota) but IMHO the IS 300h was much more than the sum of its parts. This is a difficult thing to put into words but I just didn't feel the same about the other cars I considered even though many of them had some appealing features. However, in buying Lexus it did swing my thoughts when my wife needed a new small car (mostly local use whereas my car does long distances for business and family outings) and we purchased a Toyota Yaris for her - yes, we could have gone for the CT 200h for example but in her case the Yaris was the better fit. So, IMHO it's all about horses for courses. When I come to change the IS 300h, given there is no natural Lexus replacement, I will be taking another look at what is on the market again at that time and will choose the best fit for my needs at that time. After 5 years and 70K miles I have been mightily impressed with the IS 300h which has certainly lived up to and even exceeded my expectations (being more than the sum of its parts) - so much so that I don't want to part with it at the moment especially given the lack of a natural Lexus IS successor. On paper (or even in the head) a Toyota would make good sense when I change (for many of the reasons we purchased the Yaris), but I just don't get the vibes from any current Toyota I had for the IS 300h. Will Lexus have something that ticks all those boxes again when I change, time will tell... Buying a car can of course be a completely rational pros and cons exercise - after all they all get you from A to B, but sometimes the heart also needs to have a vote which if allowed can lead one down a different path that can't so easily rationalised...

Next car for us could be a Toyota Mirai if we do what we have planned for while now. Looking for a place to live with a bigger garage.

[wharfhouse]

I really like the idea of the Toyota Mirai and hydrogen fuel cells. Unfortunately I just don't see the UK getting a hydrogen infrastructure in place even though there is already a petrol/diesel one that you would have thought it would be easier to piggyback onto that adding a whole new electric charging one. With such short-sighted non-technical governments (of any persuasion) the country is IMHO being LED forward by ill-informed pressure groups. But back to Lexus vs Toyota...!

[Initial P]

I always tell people I've got a Toyota when the ask what car I have.

Ask any indie mech its all the same underneath.

[Rabbers]

22 minutes ago, Initial P said:

I always tell people I've got a Toyota when the ask what car I have.

Ask any indie mech its all the same underneath.

That’s what I also used to tell people in order to keep the conversation short. 

As for indie mechs, I wouldn’t expect them to say anything else.

[Mr Vlad]

To me the new Rav 4 looks way better than the NX, it's got two zorsts sticking out back for a start. 

As for the title of this thread. A fair comparison? Absolutely NO. Toyota would say that to.

A car to replace an is300h. Mmmmm I've got it. A new is300h. Sorted. Easy peezy. (scuze mi spelin lol)

Toyota Mirai what a car. Superb looking and I'd have one.

[wharfhouse]

9 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

To me the new Rav 4 looks way better than the NX, it's got two zorsts sticking out back for a start. 

As for the title of this thread. A fair comparison? Absolutely NO. Toyota would say that to.

A car to replace an is300h. Mmmmm I've got it. A new is300h. Sorted. Easy peezy. (scuze mi spelin lol)

Toyota Mirai what a car. Superb looking and I'd have one.

I'd planned to buy the face-lift (ver IV) IS 300h on release - had the pennies ready - but then Lexus in its infinite wisdom decided it didn't want my pennies. Thought about changing for another current IS 300h but having bought the current car for cash didn't seem worth all the cost to replace it with what would be pretty much the same car - so decided to keep my money and have some cheap motoring for a few more years whilst we see what delights the move towards zero emissions brings!

[Initial P]

My Indi mech got me into the brand in the first place I used to take my BMW to him with the same old recurring faults & there he had a IS200 with about 200k on the clock with everything sweet.

[Vlady]

I said that before - about 3 years ago I sat in one garage (direct comparison) Camry that cost about 32k euros and in ES with the price 43k euros, even though some design cues are similar, like dashboard lines, switches design etc but the difference starts as soon as you open the door and sit in the car - the door opens on ES plusher and feels heavier, the seats are nicer and comfier, the more time you spend inside the more you see where these extra 10k gone.

Saying that, I do not think Lexus ES as plush inside as 5 series but much better then any Toyota, even though underneath it is a Toyota.

Wrt to NX, i saw a video from Carwow, I actually attached it to another thread, and was unbelievably surprised when Mat moved central console with his hands, my GS wouldn't have that! I know it is not a real test or anything but on some much cheaper cars he did it and it was solid!

I like how someone above said - if you drive a Lexus you don't feel like it is Toyota, if you drive Toyota you do wish you were in Lexus. 🙂

Current Toyotas made a massive step in a right direction with the exterior design and the quality of interior materials! Only if they were quieter I would consider one.

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, Vlady said:

I said that before - about 3 years ago I sat in one garage (direct comparison) Camry that cost about 32k euros and in ES with the price 43k euros, even though some design cues are similar, like dashboard lines, switches design etc but the difference starts as soon as you open the door and sit in the car - the door opens on ES plusher and feels heavier, the seats are nicer and comfier, the more time you spend inside the more you see where these extra 10k gone.

It's an unfair comparison as the equivalent of the ES is the Toyota Avalon - but it is unavailable in the UK.

[Las Palmas]

4 hours ago, Vlady said:

I like how someone above said - if you drive a Lexus you don't feel like it is Toyota, if you drive Toyota you do wish you were in Lexus. 🙂

I sometimes wish I was back in the MR2 Spyder when driving the CT. Not often.

[Rabbers]

16 hours ago, wharfhouse said:

I'd planned to buy the face-lift (ver IV) IS 300h on release - had the pennies ready - but then Lexus in its infinite wisdom decided it didn't want my pennies. …

I felt much the same about the RC when Lexus dropped it from the range.  I had settled comfortably into the belief that future editions of the car in whatever forms might then be available would remain my first choice for the rest of my motoring and hopefully natural life.  However, if I now want to stay with Lexus, my choices are limited to an ES or an NX, both of which are nice cars but, apart from not being entirely suited to my needs, don’t really excite me.  Mainly because my usual dealership, which has never given me cause for complaint over many years, also sells Toyota, I would certainly look at the Camry and, less enthusiastically, at the RAV before committing to either of the two Lexus models.  But, then again, I haven’t lost sight of the fact that the Germans make coupes that are almost as nice as the RC.

[wharfhouse]

14 minutes ago, Rabbers said:

I felt much the same about the RC when Lexus dropped it from the range.  I had settled comfortably into the belief that future editions of the car in whatever forms might then be available would remain my first choice for the rest of my motoring and hopefully natural life.  However, if I now want to stay with Lexus, my choices are limited to an ES or an NX, both of which are nice cars but, apart from not being entirely suited to my needs, don’t really excite me.  Mainly because my usual dealership, which has never given me cause for complaint over many years, also sells Toyota, I would certainly look at the Camry and, less enthusiastically, at the RAV before committing to either of the two Lexus models.  But, then again, I haven’t lost sight of the fact that the Germans make coupes that are almost as nice as the RC.

Yes I'm with you on that - a SUV 4x4 may be the way for me to go in a few years as we may make some significant lifestyle changes then but at the moment just doesn't make any sense. 

[steve2006]

Although I am a member of the LOC I have never actually owned a Lexus branded car as they were both JDM imported Toyotas as the Lexus brand was not available in Japan until 2006 so every model was Toyota badged.

From my experiences the Japanese Toyota equivalents have much better specifications and options than Lexus ever offered at the time, for example the 1994 Celsior had factory fitted Sat Nav probably a world first for any manufacturer.

Times have changed and economies made but even my 2004 model year Celsior has options never made available to Lexus LS430 buyers outside Japan.