Today I'll mainly be moaning about ...

[First_Lexus]

23 minutes ago, Boomer54 said:

Fair enough, except of course we were all young once so ...hmm, that can only be written by someone old when you think about it and if so you might as well say we were all brainless at some point in our life. In that case you might also as well say to become smarter we have to start out knowing little and life's experiences will do the rest all things being equal.

Indeed, Shaw’s point was (we assume) that we don’t take advantage of the benefits of youth until it’s too late and by then we know better not to waste such opportunities…

[Boomer54]

5 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Indeed, Shaw’s point was (we assume) that we don’t take advantage of the benefits of youth until it’s too late and by then we know better not to waste such opportunities…

You know what i think i am going to tell old GBS nope. When I look back I don't see much I regret today even though today I am supposed to be so much wiser. The fact is, I chased women , I got drunk, I played Rugby and laughed a lot and got some great memories out of it all. The other bits I did just waste. (attribution to Georgie Best ,but he had a pojnt).

[Bluemarlin]

1 hour ago, Boomer54 said:

Fair enough, except of course we were all young once so ...hmm, that can only be written by someone old when you think about it and if so you might as well say we were all brainless at some point in our life. In that case you might also as well say to become smarter we have to start out knowing little and life's experiences will do the rest all things being equal.

I'm banking on the theory that time is driven by the universe exapanding, and that one day it will stop and then contract.  When that happens then time will move backwards, so I'll start out old and get younger each year 🙂

[Bluemarlin]

18 hours ago, Boomer54 said:

Decent article in that it can really only go so far to explain something that is hard to explain in a 200 page technical journal.

The reality is there are myriad protective mechanisms in play overlayered with nurture derived experiences that are driving the behaviour of rigid thinking. CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) employs tools like thought challenging in an attempt to modify that method of thinking about things. It's success rate hardly achieves a random coin toss. Doesn't mean it is not worth doing so much as supports my earlier statement that this is a very complex issue and it cannot be explained in a sentence, or a statement ascribing to 'harsh realities'. If it really was that simple we would be much more successful at dealing with it than we currently are.

Agreed, it's very complex, and I've seen it in people with BPD, where pretty much any therapy struggles to deal with it. In my experience you have to almost learn new methods of communication with someone like that, rather than trying/hoping they'll change.

In the societal sense, I think the kind of black of white thinking I'm referring to is driven more by (social)media than childhood trauma/experiences. In other words it's influence being applied after early development, and so possibly less ingrained and therefore potentially easier to address. Hard to say, as no doubt those more towards one end of a spectrum are more easily infiuenced,  and maybe there are larger numbers of them.

[Boomer54]

11 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I'm banking on the theory that time is driven by the universe exapanding, and that one day it will stop and then contract.  When that happens then time will move backwards, so I'll start out old and get younger each year 🙂

Worked for Benjamin Button although if it ever comes to pass you can be sure they will have passed a law to prevent breast feeding for 'old young 'uns'.

[Boomer54]

3 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Agreed, it's very complex, and I've seen it in people with BPD, where pretty much any therapy struggles to deal with it. In my experience you have to almost learn new methods of communication with someone like that, rather than trying/hoping they'll change.

In the societal sense, I think the kind of black of white thinking I'm referring to is driven more by (social)media than childhood trauma/experiences. In other words it's influence being applied after early development, and so possibly less ingrained and therefore potentially easier to address. Hard to say, as no doubt those more towards one end of a spectrum are more easily infiuenced,  and maybe there are larger numbers of them.

In linguistic terms I think in this era the communication channel is boosting noise and nullifying information. Hence, we are seeing changes in cognitive development that are really quite new and how we deal with them is a work in progress and at that an early WIP.

I wasn't really talking about childhood trauma when i referred to nurture. Really more about the above where nuture is life experiences which to a large extent are coming from third party sources and are to an extent supplanting the usual learning processes that we have with siginificant others.

[Bluemarlin]

4 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

As a liberal, the thought of causing offence to somebody makes me uneasy, but also as a liberal I feel I have the right to my opinions.

I said earlier that I don’t know what the rules are any more. The best example I can think of comes from early years (primary) education. The Roman Empire is still taught - generally - as a force for good and civilisation in a style I recognise from my own childhood in the 1970s. Roman slavery is taught as a bad thing - often using the “how would you have felt as a slave” perspective - but it very much takes a back seat in the learning. Compare and contrast with teaching about the British Empire at the same ages and older. Fascinating…

Me too, but I'm also aware that there's a huge difference between causing offence and someone taking offence. The former is on me, the lattter on them. That's the problem today though,  in my opinion, in that if you disagree with someone they take it personally, and see a difference of opinion as an attack against who they are. Unless people can separate ideas from their sense of self, then it's almost impossible to have any kind of meaningful debate.

Your latter point neatly highlights the importance of history, context and nuance. People would be well reminded that at one time condoning slavery was considered "politically correct", and that people either ignored the flip side, or justiified it with myths of racial superiority.

Those people would also benefit from the fact that whilst times change, and we evolve socially, we still create myths, or ignore inconvenient truths, which history will one day no doubt condemn. Slavery is a good example, as yes, we've removed it from our doorstep, but our distaste in some ways is just about distance, and being out of sight out of mind. In 100 years from now it's quite possible that the "woke" youth of today will be seen as barbaric, self serving , slavery condoning consumers, for buying their iPhones, clothes and other tech, that was made by exploited labour in other countries.

Times always change.

[Malc1]

and I wish someone would open the ears and eyes of the Pro Palestinians .......... the poverty and sadness of all in Gaza ........... the apparent starvation and deprivation of all those couple of million souls in Gaza .... we see that every day on the news

CONTRASTED   with the immense wealth of the bosses of Hamas esconced in their protected Ivory Towers in Qatar ....  good 'ol Qatar eh !  must be a delightful country .  you can tell, they live like lords especially all that shopping at Harrods 

The overall boss of Hamas I'm reading is worth about £3 billion, yes billion and his cohorts several, lots of  £ billions more ...... wonder how they do that then  .  wouldn't be amiss to pop some of that loot into helping their impoverished starving millions in Gaza ....  maybe !

Wonder why the Pro Palestinians don't insist on that happening  .  build some new hospitals when all this crap has finished, feed their poor and now homeless .......... Qatari Govt could be doing some more useful practical REAL stuff to help-out I'd have thought  ........   no need to take the world's donations off any others .  just confiscate the wealth of those that have probably " stolen " it from their People 

Wot would I know . .... I'm not up to speed with all the Social Media FACTS of life with all this ................

God Bless 'em All eh whichever gods the poor souls believe in 

Malc

 

[dutchie01]

2 hours ago, Malc1 said:

and I wish someone would open the ears and eyes of the Pro Palestinians .......... the poverty and sadness of all in Gaza ........... the apparent starvation and deprivation of all those couple of million souls in Gaza .... we see that every day on the news

CONTRASTED   with the immense wealth of the bosses of Hamas esconced in their protected Ivory Towers in Qatar ....  good 'ol Qatar eh !  must be a delightful country .  you can tell, they live like lords especially all that shopping at Harrods 

The overall boss of Hamas I'm reading is worth about £3 billion, yes billion and his cohorts several, lots of  £ billions more ...... wonder how they do that then  .  wouldn't be amiss to pop some of that loot into helping their impoverished starving millions in Gaza ....  maybe !

Wonder why the Pro Palestinians don't insist on that happening  .  build some new hospitals when all this crap has finished, feed their poor and now homeless .......... Qatari Govt could be doing some more useful practical REAL stuff to help-out I'd have thought  ........   no need to take the world's donations off any others .  just confiscate the wealth of those that have probably " stolen " it from their People 

Wot would I know . .... I'm not up to speed with all the Social Media FACTS of life with all this ................

God Bless 'em All eh whichever gods the poor souls believe in 

Malc

 

Spot on Malc, some 6 billion of aid poured into Palestine in the last 7 years. Guess where it ended up. Starts with an H, ends with amas

[Malc1]

amo      amas.     amat 

amamos  amatis. amant

Wots love got to do with it  🤑🤑🤑

Malc 

 

[Boomer54]

15 minutes ago, Malc1 said:

amo      amas.     amat 

amamos  amatis. amant

Wots love got to do with it  🤑🤑🤑

Malc 

 

Yup , you do the posh Latin bit and Tina will take it from there.

[Bluemarlin]

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Spot on Malc, some 6 billion of aid poured into Palestine in the last 7 years. Guess where it ended up. Starts with an H, ends with amas

Hippopotamas ? 🙂

[Bluemarlin]

4 hours ago, Malc1 said:

and I wish someone would open the ears and eyes of the Pro Palestinians .......... the poverty and sadness of all in Gaza ........... the apparent starvation and deprivation of all those couple of million souls in Gaza .... we see that every day on the news

CONTRASTED   with the immense wealth of the bosses of Hamas esconced in their protected Ivory Towers in Qatar ....  good 'ol Qatar eh !  must be a delightful country .  you can tell, they live like lords especially all that shopping at Harrods 

The overall boss of Hamas I'm reading is worth about £3 billion, yes billion and his cohorts several, lots of  £ billions more ...... wonder how they do that then  .  wouldn't be amiss to pop some of that loot into helping their impoverished starving millions in Gaza ....  maybe !

Wonder why the Pro Palestinians don't insist on that happening  .  build some new hospitals when all this crap has finished, feed their poor and now homeless .......... Qatari Govt could be doing some more useful practical REAL stuff to help-out I'd have thought  ........   no need to take the world's donations off any others .  just confiscate the wealth of those that have probably " stolen " it from their People 

Wot would I know . .... I'm not up to speed with all the Social Media FACTS of life with all this ................

God Bless 'em All eh whichever gods the poor souls believe in 

Malc

 

Nuance Malc, nuance 😉

Just because a person is supportive of Palestians, doesn't mean they like Hamas. In the same way that many Jews are not supportive of Israel, and that some (me included) are supportive of the right to a peaceful existence for Israelis, but not supportive of some of their leader's actions.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

Hippopotamas ? 🙂

Almost Bill but you're confusing your as with your us 😊

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

Nuance Malc, nuance 😉

Just because a person is supportive of Palestians, doesn't mean they like Hamas. In the same way that many Jews are not supportive of Israel, and that some (me included) are supportive of the right to a peaceful existence for Israelis, but not supportive of some of their leader's actions.

Didn't the majority of Palestinian people choose H over the alternative in their elections? And didn't these same people cheer in the streets on October 7th? And didn't these same people say nothing when millions upon millions of tons of aid funded building materials were diverted to construct 800 kilometres + of tunnels? 

[Malc1]

I’m thinking we’re being kept quite short of relevant real-time info on all of this

BUT ……. if we had it would it be believable credible true or just a load of biased cobblers …… and made available to us on whatever this Social Media gubbins might be ……. sadly nothings really credible believable nor really trustworthy …… not even if it came from the BBC 🥲

Cest le Vie ……. pass the merlot  glug glug glug 

Malc 

[Bluemarlin]

14 hours ago, Phil xxkr said:

Didn't the majority of Palestinian people choose H over the alternative in their elections? And didn't these same people cheer in the streets on October 7th? And didn't these same people say nothing when millions upon millions of tons of aid funded building materials were diverted to construct 800 kilometres + of tunnels? 

To be fair, the election was almost 20 years ago, and around the half the population weren't even born then, let alone able to vote. As I understand it, around 40% of the population are under 14. Even then it was supposed to be a power share, as the electorate was split, but Hamas overthew the opposition. I don't think the majority of the people have much say.

Regardless of what they both say., it's a far more complex situation than either side claim. The extremists on both sides are the bad guys, and the good guys on either side pay the price.

Hard to see a solution really as, even removing the extremists on either side, neither side seem able to agree on terms for a two state solution, and Israel doesn't particularly fancy a single state one.

[Malc1]

3 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

To be fair, the election was almost 20 years ago, and around the half the population weren't even born then, let alone able to vote. As I understand it, around 40% of the population are under 14. Even then it was supposed to be a power share, as the electorate was split, but Hamas overthew the opposition. I don't think the majority of the people have much say.

Regardless of what they both say., it's a far more complex situation than either side claim. The extremists on both sides are the bad guys, and the good guys on either side pay the price.

Hard to see a solution really as, even removing the extremists on either side, neither side seem able to agree on terms for a two state solution, and Israel doesn't particularly fancy a single state one.

And the Qatar based Hamas Boss still has accumulated over £3billion and his cohorts lots of £billions more ……. Don’t seem quite fair on the impoverished Palestinian Gaza population …… or am I getting my thinking skewered and that sort of outcome is quite ok really …… I think not! 

Malc 

[Bluemarlin]

3 hours ago, Malc1 said:

And the Qatar based Hamas Boss still has accumulated over £3billion and his cohorts lots of £billions more ……. Don’t seem quite fair on the impoverished Palestinian Gaza population …… or am I getting my thinking skewered and that sort of outcome is quite ok really …… I think not! 

Malc 

Consider your thinking unskewered Malc, it's far from ok.

Money complicates everything, and Hamas being based in Qatar was long ago supported, if not encouraged by the US.

 

[dutchie01]

International Politics especially in the Middle East is an international pokergame where everybody cheats. You never know what is true and what not, what happens behind the curtain remains untold.