Today I'll mainly be moaning about ...

[LenT]

 

57 minutes ago, Malc said:

could this possibly be out of context I wonder 

Malc

As I suggested, Malcolm, I couldn’t find an authoritative single source for road traffic incidents at this specific Junction - although I’m sure someone has them!  So the context is based on such scant details as I’ve been able to glean from various local newspaper items, such as the one I link to here.

Like much of Local Press reporting, they are often light on detail and can be ambiguous in construction.  But in these specific instances it’s pretty clear who the offenders are.

If anyone is interested enough to delve deeper, I’m sure the extra detail would prove interesting.

https://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/regent-s-park-cyclists-and-pedestrians-criticise-dangerous-traffic-cutting-3632036

[Mincey]

Don't ask me how I found this: 

 

[First_Lexus]

12 minutes ago, Mincey said:

Don't ask me how I found this: 

 

Surely the issue here isn’t how fast he’s going, but the fact he’s on the pavement…

But again, this must be an isolated incident. Also surprising - and impressive - that the cyclist himself must have uploaded it…

[Malc]

are there any laws that stop cyclists from riding on the pavement ? or can they just do whatever with impunity ?

wonder if the cyclist was on his mobile phone at the time too ....  it's there ready to video the incident for sure

LOCK 'IM UP and throw away the key I say ......  break his legs so he can't ever cycle again methinks 😵

Malc

[Mincey]

Cyclist breaking the law by riding on the pavement, has collision with pedestrian working on a broken down BMW - I think that ticks all the boxes...

[doog442]

Look at them all going dizzy over some kid hitting a bloke working on his a car 😀

A few things worth noting. We have no idea if that was a shared foot / cycle path, the guy on the bike was riding too fast and it wouldn't have happened if Mr high viz wasn't (more than likely) breaking the law by working on his car in the street. 

38 minutes ago, Malc said:

LOCK 'IM UP and throw away the key I say ......  break his legs so he can't ever cycle again methinks 😵

 

I'm starting to think you have a few issues Malc. One minute you're advocating running down cyclists in Rochester High street the next breaking the legs of some kid cycling around an estate. 

[First_Lexus]

37 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I'm starting to think you have a few issues Malc. One minute you're advocating running down cyclists in Rochester High street the next breaking the legs of some kid cycling around an estate. 

You noticed that too…🤣

[Moleman]

55 minutes ago, doog442 said:

 

I'm starting to think you have a few issues Malc. 

Same could be said of you Doog! Is there anything a cyclist can do wrong or be responsible for in your world? That cyclist in the video was in the wrong, anyone could have been walking down that street - elderly; child; disabled. Why do you not acknowledge that some cyclist can be wrong just like some motorists can be wrong. An idiot is an idiot whatever mode of transport. 

[Malc]

13 minutes ago, Moleman said:

An idiot is an idiot whatever mode of transport. 

or not Doog  

no seriously, I'm never an advocate of running anyone down either on the road or pavement ...  the drain on the UK taxpayer to sort it all out with Police, NHS, enquiries, new council signage costs .  oh my, no just BAN cyclists all together to some far flung outpost ...  Tonga might be a good idea ..........  luxuriate in the South Pacific .....  maybe on a Community Order programme ( oh no of course not, that's funded by the taxpayer too ! )

Malc

[dutchie01]

so you thought you had an issue with bikes in your village?

 

 

 

 

 

[Mincey]

The road discipline of many of those cyclists is appalling, and where are their helmets? It's sheer irresponsibility.

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

Same could be said of you Doog! Is there anything a cyclist can do wrong or be responsible for in your world? That cyclist in the video was in the wrong, anyone could have been walking down that street - elderly; child; disabled. Why do you not acknowledge that some cyclist can be wrong just like some motorists can be wrong. An idiot is an idiot whatever mode of transport. 

My world ? My world (or part of it back in the day ) was dealing with road accident casualties, some of whom were cyclists. I'll spare you the grim details. Until you've been in 'my world' I guess you fail to understand where I'm really coming from.

Likewise If you care to read the post you will see that I said the 'cyclist' was going too fast, I mean that's obvious for the whole world to see and also clearly on the phone (which is a worrying trend). Additionally if you read my previous posts you will see that I acknowledge, that like every road user there are always a percentage of idiots. 

Unfortunately the ramifications of being an idiot behind the wheel of a 1.5 ton mechanically propelled vehicle (add or subtract any weight you care to) far exceed those of being the same on a two wheeled 10kg bicycle.

So if you want to show me a video of a cyclist hitting a guy fixing his car, I'll show you 10 of a car 'wiping out' a cyclist but that isn't funny is it. Despite being the moaning thread, there's actually a degree of humour in it on occasion and lets not totally ruin it eh!

I hope that's okay with you Maurice, I genuinely think we can learn from each others experiences. 

[Moleman]

6 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

so you thought you had an issue with bikes in your village?

 

 

 

 

 

That's what happens when you give one user total control. Chaos. Most of those cyclists are clearly a danger to themselves.

[Moleman]

1 minute ago, doog442 said:

My world ? My world (or part of it back in the day ) was dealing with road accident casualties, some of whom were cyclists. I'll spare you the grim details. Until you've been in 'my world' I guess you fail to understand where I'm really coming from.

Likewise If you care to read the post you will see that I said the 'cyclist' was going too fast, I mean that's obvious for the whole world to see and also clearly on the phone (which is a worrying trend). Additionally if you read my previous posts you will see that I acknowledge, that like every road user there are always a percentage of idiots. 

Unfortunately the ramifications of being an idiot behind the wheel of a 1.5 ton mechanically propelled vehicle (add or subtract any weight you care to) far exceed those of being the same on a two wheeled 10kg bicycle.

So if you want to show me a video of a cyclist hitting a guy fixing his car, I'll show you 10 of a car 'wiping out' a cyclist but that isn't funny is it. Despite being the moaning thread, there's actually a degree of humour in it on occasion and lets not totally ruin it eh!

I hope that's okay with you Maurice, I genuinely think we can learn from each others experiences. 

Thanks for putting me straight. You still seem to have problem. What do you learn about others experience's? You have no idea about my life so "Until you've been in 'my world' I guess you fail to understand where I'm really coming from." As stated "An idiot is an idiot whatever mode of transport." Have a pleasant day.

[Malc]

2 minutes ago, Moleman said:

those cyclists are clearly a danger to themselves.

and think of the terrible pollution if one or several were to fall into those wonderful canals in Amsterdam ..  hope they can swim ...  or maybe those canals are so polluted to be a threat to the immersed cyclists .....  anyone know the pollution ( or cleanliness ) levels of those idyllic Amsterdam canals ..  nothing to  moan about there for sure eh ! 

Malc

[doog442]

6 minutes ago, Malc said:

and think of the terrible pollution if one or several were to fall into those wonderful canals in Amsterdam ..  hope they can swim ...  or maybe those canals are so polluted to be a threat to the immersed cyclists .....  anyone know the pollution ( or cleanliness ) levels of those idyllic Amsterdam canals ..  nothing to  moan about there for sure eh ! 

Malc

Drown them all malc  ...its the future I tell ya !

I've cycled through Rotterdam (appreciate the video is Amsterdam) and down through the Netherlands a few times. Trust me even as a UK cyclist the mind boggles at it all and as a motorist I'd probably struggle dealing with that.

[Malc]

3 minutes ago, doog442 said:

I've cycled through Rotterdam (appreciate the video is Amsterdam) and down through the Netherlands a few times. Trust me even as a UK cyclist the mind boggles at it all and as a motorist I'd probably struggle dealing with that.

hahahahaha, my business office is in Delhi ...........  not been there for a couple of years due to covid etc BUT they tell me the roads are as blissfully quiet .....  I jest ...........and chaotic as ever

and cycling is just about the only speedy means of transport thru' the mass of seething cars, vans, trucks, scooters and buses .......... even cycles when overladen with bags and boxes and several passengers 

It's sure a fun place to be ............ 

Malc

[Bluemarlin]

As both a cyclist and a motorist, I find the biggest problem to be the cyclists who use the roads for racing and speed trials. Public roads shouldn't be used for competitive sports, whether that be driving or cycling. These cyclists rarely seem to check behind themselves or use hand signals, and often dart around traffic and other cyclists without warning, rather than face the inconvenience of slowing down.

Ironically, the 20mph speed limits everywhere make the situation worse, as this now makes cars slow moving obstacles for these groups to navigate round at high speed. Although cyclists are not subject to speed limits, when driviing at one it should be reasonable to assume that no-one can legally overtake you, especially in your own lane, but that's not the case in such a zone. Cyclist can now come flying by, on either side, in the same lane you're driving in, sometimes with the tiniest gap between you and either the kerb or oncoming traffic, and sometimes both.

I actually agree with the highway code changes that put a greater onus on motorists to be more mindful of cyclists and pedestrians. I believe that anything that makes cycling safer should be welcomed, but that should include appropriate additional requirements for cyclists as well as motorists, for both their own safety and that of others. A start might be that cyclists should have mirrors, speed limits, and should be compelled to use cycle paths where provided. Mirrors are cheap, speed limits are common sense, and bike lanes are being built at great expense, and all add to the safety of cycling. I'm fine with motorists being compelled to drive more safely, but feel that cyclists should be compelled to ride more safely too.

As for helmets, according to Dutch government stats, where helmet wearing is rare, helmet wearers are more likely to suffer serious injuries. That's not to say that helmet wearing in itself is the cause, and instead that cyclists who wear helmets are usually only those who are riding competitively, and at far greater speeds. The faster the speed, the greater the risk, and that applies as much to cyclists as it does motorists.

 

 

[Moleman]

4 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

As both a cyclist and a motorist, I find the biggest problem to be the cyclists who use the roads for racing and speed trials. Public roads shouldn't be used for competitive sports, whether that be driving or cycling. These cyclists rarely seem to check behind themselves or use hand signals, and often dart around traffic and other cyclists without warning, rather than face the inconvenience of slowing down.

Ironically, the 20mph speed limits everywhere make the situation worse, as this now makes cars slow moving obstacles for these groups to navigate round at high speed. Although cyclists are not subject to speed limits, when driviing at one it should be reasonable to assume that no-one can legally overtake you, especially in your own lane, but that's not the case in such a zone. Cyclist can now come flying by, on either side, in the same lane you're driving in, sometimes with the tiniest gap between you and either the kerb or oncoming traffic, and sometimes both.

I actually agree with the highway code changes that put a greater onus on motorists to be more mindful of cyclists and pedestrians. I believe that anything that makes cycling safer should be welcomed, but that should include appropriate additional requirements for cyclists as well as motorists, for both their own safety and that of others. A start might be that cyclists should have mirrors, speed limits, and should be compelled to use cycle paths where provided. Mirrors are cheap, speed limits are common sense, and bike lanes are being built at great expense, and all add to the safety of cycling. I'm fine with motorists being compelled to drive more safely, but feel that cyclists should be compelled to ride more safely too.

As for helmets, according to Dutch government stats, where helmet wearing is rare, helmet wearers are more likely to suffer serious injuries. That's not to say that helmet wearing in itself is the cause, and instead that cyclists who wear helmets are usually only those who are riding competitively, and at far greater speeds. The faster the speed, the greater the risk, and that applies as much to cyclists as it does motorists.

 

 

Excellent response, balanced noting the responsibility of all road users whatever mode of transport. Thank you 😁.

[malcolmw]

Regarding Dutchie01's video of Amsterdam, the most telling fact is that there are almost no Lycra clad "personal best time" chasers - just ordinarily dressed citizens using a bike as a means of transport. There would be much less antagonism towards cyclists if it were like this in the UK.

[Phil xxkr]

1 hour ago, Moleman said:

Excellent response, balanced noting the responsibility of all road users whatever mode of transport. Thank you 😁.

Well said 

[doog442]

38 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

Regarding Dutchie01's video of Amsterdam, the most telling fact is that there are almost no Lycra clad "personal best time" chasers - just ordinarily dressed citizens using a bike as a means of transport. There would be much less antagonism towards cyclists if it were like this in the UK.

Correct in that video, however road cycling is extremely popular in the Netherlands and a typical Saturday or Sunday will see thousands of Lycra clad road cyclists out and about, far more than here .There are two differences at play however, Infrastructure and culture. The thing that saddens me is the objection to cycling Infrastructure in the UK, without it there will always be the conflict we're seeing displayed on this forum. 

[malcolmw]

The objections to cycling infrastructure stem principally from the provision of this from the existing road area rather than providing new (and separated) cycling paths. Motorists are naturally upset by this as it increases crowding and they see the cycling provision very little used while they sit in traffic.

[doog442]

4 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

The objections to cycling infrastructure stem principally from the provision of this from the existing road area rather than providing new (and separated) cycling paths. Motorists are naturally upset by this as it increases crowding and they see the cycling provision very little used while they sit in traffic.

Totally agree, we're playing catch up and its all a work in progress . I had no idea for example that many routes are unsuitable for road widening simply due to things like many hedges being protected. The Netherlands on the whole has it right (the earlier video aside) when they decided in the 50's I believe to incorporate cycle lanes into every new town / street plan, perhaps dutchie can clarify.

Regarding empty cycle lanes, my guess is these will slowly get busier but even in the case of my council I'm still struggling with some of their routes. It's all very ad hoc. They seem to look at a route and decide if they can fit one in for the sake of it, rather than what it's actually meant to achieve ie moving commuters from A to B for example. 

[Bluemarlin]

I agree Doog, it's a shame that there isn't better cycling infrastructure in the UK, for the benefit of all road users.

By road cyclists, I assume you mean those who tend to ride competitively on the roads, but it seems that they tend not to use any cycling specific infrastucture, even when it is available.

I can understand the desire to ride competitively, and the frustration at not having sufficient facilities to do so, but to use public roads as an alternative is simply dangerous. Clocking your fastest time for a route, and riding as safely as possible, are mutually exclusive. As such, some of the conflict comes from drivers feeling that they're being blamed for all cyclists problems, when clearly there are some groups of cyclists who put their competitive urges ahead of their safety. As a cyclist I feel a lot safer in a bike lane, and as a motorist I'd be more than happy with more bike lanes built, if bikes were compelled to stick to them.

From a motorist's perspective, I have no problem with an old guy on his shopping bike holding me up, it is what it is. Safety is enhanced by predictability, and he's predictable. However, a flock of road racers isn't. They can loom up from behind in slower moving traffic, on both sides of the car, giving you little idea or warning of who's going  to pass, and on what side, as you politely try to manoeuvre and give them space. They're no better when they're in front of you, as they randomly switch from two to three abreast, or one of them darts out of the pack to switch lead.

I'm all in favour of doing whatever it takes to make cycling safer for the average cyclist, but it's time to acknowledge that their are two distinctly different types of cyclist. Those who ride as a means of transport, and those who ride as a competitive sport. The former should be accomodated as much as possible, and the latter restricted to dedicated facilities.