To Phev or not !

[Tel]

1. On long Continental journeys the electric motors would only be recharged twice using Tesla converted pumps (if possible). MPG is poor.

Therefore the NX Phev is compromised unless you significantly extend Trip Journey Time.

2.As the UXe, the design range is compromised in the Real World .

Convince me I am wrong.

Tel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Zotto]

Plug-in cars are good for short daily trips and nightly recharge, so to use them as an electric car, while  for longer  journeys they work like a thermal engine car.

At least, NX as PHEV works like a real Hybrid and has mpg like NX...

Different topic is UXe, it is an electric URBAN suv, and using it for long trips is not  its mission, and the range for urban use is adeguate.

Both solution have to be considered if proper for costs accordingly to planned use; in my opinion they are at the moment too expensive.

[subria88]

Well yes... a PHEV by nature is a compromise in having to carry two power units, the internal combustion and the electric batteries. Either or will result in the carriage of dead weight

Given there is only a 40-60 mile electric only range for the 450h+ on a long journey you will never get the benefit of the electric, though it will slowly recharge over time (reports are the internal combustion engine can recharge the battery), but otherwise you are hauling around a large heavy Battery pack which isn't being used.

If you're using the PHEV for trips to the shops, work etc which is generally or just over the electric range, then the benefit is more clear. The anecdotal reports from the US for the RAV4 PHEV were saying that for most of the above use cases, they were either on the original tank of petrol or the 2nd after six months/1 year.

The UXe suffers a little from being a conversion from an existing hybrid (non optimal main Battery placement) but again if you're doing the shortish journeys within the designed range, would work fine.

I'd see the NX PHEV as optimal for my use case where it's mostly around town to the shops, school runs, short day trips etc, but still have a car that be taken long distance if needed. Yes, I'm hauling a large Battery which doesn't do much in this case. Conversely I don't have to worry about having to make stops for charging, and I don't need to have/hire another car just for long trips,

[Steve Oliver]

51 minutes ago, Tel said:

1. On long Continental journeys the electric motors would only be recharged twice using Tesla converted pumps (if possible). MPG is poor.

Therefore the NX Phev is compromised unless you significantly extend Trip Journey Time.

2.As the UXe, the design range is compromised in the Real World .

Convince me I am wrong.

Tel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 450h+ is compromised anyway because no ML or panoramic roof! 😆

Still smarting....

[Zotto]

 A slight advantage of PHEV  could result in long trips downhill while, because of more energy storage capacity, you can charge Battery that in simple Hybrids gets full charge early, so maybe it has to be considered if you live in a mountain zone.

[Roger Bill]

I had a test drive in a Merc C Class plug in hybrid and it felt noticeably heavier and less pleasant to drive. As the NX 450h+ only has around a 10% weight penalty over the 350h hopefully the NX won't suffer so much. But it's the extra £7k+ on the price which I couldn't justify. Would be different if it were a company car purchase.

[Zotto]

In cars from other producers the PHEV is often an add to lower emissions whith the "trick" to have a electric motor to make 50-60 km. so to have a good number on emissions as they are calculated on 100 km, when Battery is not charged they use thermal engines  and emissions grow up dramatically; Lexus and Toyota work from a real hybrid solution instead.

[Al D-Much]

Too much faffing for me.
I'm forgetful, so remembering to charge overnight etc etc wouldn't "work" for me.
At least with a hybrid and fuel I can always just nip in any petrol station and fill up if out and about and forgotten to do so before hand. Which, invariably I do.

[Zotto]

It happens I consider to change my  RX with a PHEV like new NX 450h, and probably I could spare much fuel charging in night time for the next usual daily driving, but the difference in price from a simple hybrid it may be justified only thinking about electric smoothness while driving without thermal engine contribution; on the other side maintainance costs are the same; so after this thoughts I decide to wait till a full passage to a only electric car has more sense.

If I had to buy a car today, I'd buy a Hybrid Lexus, not a plug-in one, neither an electric, as the only real alternative is a Tesla (because of superchargers net) but I think  they are overpriced.

[Vlady]

It is a great time to sell my GS now but I have no idea what to go for, electric, PHEV or hybrid! If PHEV were like £3-4k more expensive than hybrid I would go for it but £7k - you need to do a lot of miles on electric only to cover that price difference, plus we do not know what fuel prices will bring in near future which also delays my decision on a new car.

It's not that easy nowadays to buy a car, is it? 🙂

As a full electric, I would check out Volvo Polestar, KIA brought a few fully electric models to a market, in 6 months time we will have much more choice, only if they were reasonably priced! 🙂

[VFR]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:54 AM, Zotto said:

 A slight advantage of PHEV  could result in long trips downhill while, because of more energy storage capacity, you can charge battery that in simple Hybrids gets full charge early, so maybe it has to be considered if you live in a mountain zone.

What you gain going down you will lose by going back up, will you not.    😉

[Zotto]

17 minutes ago, VFR said:

What you gain going down you will lose by going back up, will you not.    😉

Actually not, because in "standard" hybrids the Battery capacity is low, and when it is fully charged  like in long downhill trips braking is made by thermal engine and brakes and energy is lost.

[Mossypossy]

If you live up a mountain then going down will cost pretty much the same in any vehicle.

I guess the bigger the Battery on a hybrid or PHEV will get you further back up the hill for free than a conventionally fuelled engine.

I know in Switzerland my 450h was fully charged on the way down after a couple of minutes. Driving down Everest would not have increased the charge level.

 

[Zotto]

Steve, if you have a PHEV your Battery is much more bigger and you can store all energy from regenerative braking during long downhill that can be used AFTER to drive for free, in our hybrids battery  soon gets full charge and at this point no more energy recovery. Obviously any car going downhill does not use fuel  (or almost).

[Don C]

Using a 450h+ on mainly Battery power may be cheap but unless the PPF sees normal temperature for reasonable periods, it’s going to cause problems.   Probably quite good on reasonable mileage journeys.  

[Steve Oliver]

It's a Lexus.

[ColinBarber]

50 minutes ago, Don C said:

Using a 450h+ on mainly battery power may be cheap but unless the PPF sees normal temperature for reasonable periods, it’s going to cause problems.   Probably quite good on reasonable mileage journeys.  

Using the 450h+ mainly on Battery power would mean the GPF not getting clogged anywhere near as much in the first place. I would imagine that once it gets to a certain level the system will force the petrol engine to run and get up to temperature - it does this to a certain extent with the current hybrids (UX, NX etc).

[Don C]

8 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Using the 450h+ mainly on battery power would mean the GPF not getting clogged anywhere near as much in the first place. I would imagine that once it gets to a certain level the system will force the petrol engine to run and get up to temperature - it does this to a certain extent with the current hybrids (UX, NX etc).

This fella rambles a bit but he reckons otherwise;

 

[LenT]

On 11/9/2021 at 9:36 AM, subria88 said:

If you're using the PHEV for trips to the shops, work etc which is generally or just over the electric range, then the benefit is more clear. The anecdotal reports from the US for the RAV4 PHEV were saying that for most of the above use cases, they were either on the original tank of petrol or the 2nd after six months/1 year.

This does raise another consideration, albeit a minor one.  Even in a closed system like a car’s petrol tank, stored petrol degrades as its volatile components evaporate out.  By some accounts it has a ‘shelf life’ of about 6 months at 20C and this decreases as temperature rises.

This results in reduced performance and - ultimately- difficult starting.  Of course you can easily improve matters by topping up with fresh petrol.  But this does suggest to me that such frugal use of petrol - or diesel, for that matter - may not be such an altogether good thing as might be supposed.

[subria88]

I did see that for Rav4 PHEV in the US they were advised to use their petrol tanks every so often to avoid that decreasing petrol shelf life - may well be a case where you don't keep it anywhere near full unless you're travelling long distance.

[ColinBarber]

50 minutes ago, subria88 said:

I did see that for Rav4 PHEV in the US they were advised to use their petrol tanks every so often to avoid that decreasing petrol shelf life - may well be a case where you don't keep it anywhere near full unless you're travelling long distance.

Agreed. Unless you are going to do a long distance then only fill between 1/4 to 1/2 full. There is then the benefit of not carrying around so much weight.

[ColinBarber]

15 hours ago, Don C said:

This fella rambles a bit but he reckons otherwise;

I didn't hear him mention a participant particulate filter at all? Not sure they even have them on US models (certainly the F vehicles don't as they kept the 470+ bhp when the European versions decrease to 450+ bhp because of the added filter) - they have only been fitting them in the last few years to European models to meet Euro 6d regulations so how they perform and long term issues are unknown at the moment.

Edited November 20, 2021 by ColinBarber

[LenT]

58 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

I didn't hear him mention a participant filter at all? 

I may well be wrong, Colin, but I wondered if you may have fallen victim to the dreaded autocorrect software?

I suspect you actually typed ‘particulate’?

[Don C]

3 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

I didn't hear him mention a participant filter at all? Not sure they even have them on US models (certainly the F vehicles don't as they kept the 470+ bhp when the European versions decrease to 450+ bhp because of the added filter) - they have only been fitting them in the last few years to European models to meet Euro 6d regulations so how they perform and long term issues are unknown at the moment.

He doesn’t but he does say that it won’t start the engine to keep it healthy.  You used that to negate the PPF problems so I did too.  

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, Don C said:

He doesn’t but he does say that it won’t start the engine to keep it healthy.  You used that to negate the PPF problems so I did too.  

But when a vehicle has a GPF installed the engine management system behaves differently to ensure burn off can occur.