Prospective owner with a few questions

[diarmaid]

I’m thinking of changing from my 5 Series to a new ES300h in January. I have a couple of questions I’d really appreciate help with:

1. Is the Pioneer stereo any good? I’ve read about problems with no sound coming from the rear. 
2. Is there adequate overtaking power?

3. How economical is it? I had a GS450h years ago which was good fun but not economical. Does it immediately go over to petrol as soon as you go above 10mph?

4. How is the multimedia system to use - usb and Spotify in particular? I assume you can split the screen and have a map and music info showing at the same time and that music artwork is displayed?

many thanks in advance!

[royoftherovers]

16 minutes ago, diarmaid said:

I’m thinking of changing from my 5 Series to a new ES300h in January. I have a couple of questions I’d really appreciate help with:

1. Is the Pioneer stereo any good? I’ve read about problems with no sound coming from the rear. 
2. Is there adequate overtaking power?

3. How economical is it? I had a GS450h years ago which was good fun but not economical. Does it immediately go over to petrol as soon as you go above 10mph?

4. How is the multimedia system to use - usb and Spotify in particular? I assume you can split the screen and have a map and music info showing at the same time and that music artwork is displayed?

many thanks in advance!

Why are you thinking of changing from the BMW Diarmaid ?

[diarmaid]

13 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Why are you thinking of changing from the BMW Diarmaid ?

I have a 530e and unlike previous diesel 5s that I had, I find the ride in this one on bad surfaces very hard. I think they stiffened the rear shocks to handle the Battery. Also the boot is small. The electric range is about 20 miles, once that runs out you’re using the petrol only and it’s quite heavy on it - due to the extra weight of the Battery I suppose. In many ways, particularly the whole iDrive system, it’s very good. 
I like the look of the ES and I heard that the ride is very quiet and smooth.  Unfortunately I don’t have an opportunity to drive one at present.  

[royoftherovers]

16 minutes ago, diarmaid said:

I have a 530e and unlike previous diesel 5s that I had, I find the ride in this one on bad surfaces very hard. I think they stiffened the rear shocks to handle the battery. Also the boot is small. The electric range is about 20 miles, once that runs out you’re using the petrol only and it’s quite heavy on it - due to the extra weight of the battery I suppose. In many ways, particularly the whole iDrive system, it’s very good. 
I like the look of the ES and I heard that the ride is very quiet and smooth.  Unfortunately I don’t have an opportunity to drive one at present.  

Many thanks Diarmaid for the explanation.

Owners of the ES will give you their thoughts I`m sure, but having had 10 years with my GS 450h, I can confidently state that the Lexus ride is quiet and serene. It is not a drivers car as BMW `s are, but it accelerates in a linear fashion with minimal fuss. Foot to the floor is not the way to achieve progress and will cause the ecvt transmission to produce angst for the driver.

Progress is best achieved by adopting a driving style which is rarely adopted by non Lexus drivers and involves educated and knowledgeable anticipation. The electric range will be minimal, barely 15% of your BMW `s.

The best advice I can give you is to try one for several hours in a multitude of situations, over 2 days if possible.

Good luck.

[diarmaid]

Thank you for your reply. I do remember that my GS was a lot of fun and very fast but that economy wasn’t its strongpoint!

[e-yes]

15 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

The best advice I can give you is to try one for several hours in a multitude of situations, over 2 days if possible.

Good luck.

+1 to what @royoftherovers recommends

I was able to get the ES for a four hour test drive. Try it out and see how it goes 🙂 

The Pioneer stereo is not horrible but I recently discovered that while the car is moving the ANC (which cannot be turned off) interferes. That explains why it sounds noticeably better while the car is not moving. It is also quite a bit better than the standard 190 watt system in my previous Audi A6 but really not all that much worse than the Bose System I had in my Mazda6.

Passing power is ample. Never felt short of power.

Over 5000 miles I am now at 51mpg.

(EDIT: This is mostly school runs, local in town use and maybe a bit of motorways. On the motorway I have seen 60mpg over 200 miles of typical motorway driving. It is surprisingly economical.)

In the 2022 ES there is a touch screen and if you prefer using apple Car play, it should be all good.

Don't have experience with Spotify personally as I use apple Music myself and I don't have the touch screen interface, but it is still totally OK, just a matter of getting used to it.

HTH

Cheers,

--E

[Mincey]

Spotify on Android Auto works very well. I'm very happy with it.

[george72]

I recently moved from a 530d to the ES f sport simply because of its bullet proof reliability and warranty. Whilst the ES300h is a lovely car, i am afraid its really not a patch on the BMW, but i knew this as my priorities had changed and i simply wanted a reliable hassle free motoring experience. The ride on the Fsport is good but not great and that is because of the 19 inc wheel set up, i believe the 18 inch set up on non f sport models is the sweet spot. The sound system is adequate, again i am comparing that to my BMW (loudspeaker) system which was infinitely better.

So there are compromises, but on balance, still worth it for the hassle free motoring. 

[peniole]

Pioneer system is very good, but yes sound stage is right in front of you by design. If you want a rear biased system this is not it. I haven't noticed degradation with ANC, I'm assuming they must have updated something for the 2021s. System will do FLAC.

I have 18s, ride is excellent (irons out poor surfaces) moreso than most Germans I test drove, including an E class. Quieter too thanks to clever aero, flat underfloor, sound deadening, double glazing and ANC.

Economy at worst for me is low 50's on long runs 60+

Linear acceleration from zero (electric torque), no lag, but no drama. Heavy car, competent cornering, but not it's wheelhouse. You'll also find yourself less likely to overtake for a couple of mph under the limit. Not because you can't but because it's a relaxing drive that one enjoys at leisure.

Yes you can split nav and audio on the screen, artwork from USB shows, haven't used spotify.

[PDM]

Not an ES driver (RX and NX) but just to say that if you want great audio you should consider the Mark Levinson system. The audio quality is excellent.  Perhaps compare the ML and non ML systems at your dealer?

Paul

[diarmaid]

22 minutes ago, PDM said:

Not an ES driver (RX and NX) but just to say that if you want great audio you should consider the Mark Levinson system. The audio quality is excellent.  Perhaps compare the ML and non ML systems at your dealer?

Paul

The ML isn’t an option unfortunately.  

[Scoops]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:10 AM, diarmaid said:

I’m thinking of changing from my 5 Series to a new ES300h in January. I have a couple of questions I’d really appreciate help with:

1. Is the Pioneer stereo any good? I’ve read about problems with no sound coming from the rear. 

Well audio is pretty subjective! The presentation is very very forward. It isn't a surround in the normal ML way for example. The rear speakers consist of one (or two, I haven't seen a breakdown for the speaker placement) in each rear door and the sub at the back of the car on the rear shelf. It does a decent job at giving audio a wide soundstage, I wouldn't call it 'surround' to be honest although it is a bit like listening to normal hifi speakers that sit in front of you but offer you a good soundstage. I have discovered that you don't need it to be half as loud as the MK system in the CT I had previously though it does sound significantly better at higher volumes (then doesn't everything?). The tone settings need messing around for me so I have the treble and mid dialled up with the bass somewhat behind to stop it getting too muddy. Overall though, my ears are beginning to like what they are hearing.

2. Is there adequate overtaking power?

Yes. If you have driven a Lexus with a hybrid drivetrain before, the feeling is the same. A bit of forward planning is needed to deal with the slight rubber banding but it is better than other 'normal' cars out there where you have turbo lag to deal with etc. I would add that this isn't a 'fast' car by any stretch but I have found it to be plenty fast enough.

3. How economical is it? I had a GS450h years ago which was good fun but not economical. Does it immediately go over to petrol as soon as you go above 10mph?

After about 3000 miles I am doing around 57mpg to give you an idea...

4. How is the multimedia system to use - usb and Spotify in particular? I assume you can split the screen and have a map and music info showing at the same time and that music artwork is displayed?

If you have a phone that supports CarPlay or Android Auto then just use that. It is a better solution that using Spotify over bluetooth or USB since you get the artwork, interface and you can have the maps in a smaller window etc.. If you use another method you will find your mileage will vary on how useful it is. For example, my old iPhone works fine on bluetooth and transmits the album cover etc over bluetooth, but not 100% of the time while my Pixel 4xl didn't even manage to pass on the track information without a battle in the CT. I haven't tried in the ES yet. If you are using the normal infotainment though, you can pick what display you want and where you want it, so it is quite flexible.

 

On top of that though, I have had a couple of hours in the ES with an ML system and it was fantastic. Amazing sound separation and proper surround (although ML surround still is more forward than some I have heard with the 'stage' very much at the dashboard. If there had been the option, I would have gone for that but I still feel the standard system is really good after some tweaking..

I have to say that I haven't noticed the ANC making much of a difference to the sound but I have heard other forum members saying they do...

Great car though - very different to the BMW (have driven a 520d and 530e) in just about every respect. The worst thing about the 530e was the Battery range was terrible, I managed 24 miles REALLY trying but normally it didn't make 20 and according to Lexus Link, I am doing nearly that on electric only on some trips. Ride and comfort is great although I have the 18 inch wheels which might contribute to that.

[diarmaid]

Thanks for all the helpful comments and info. I must say I’m very tempted. 

[STE041]

9 hours ago, diarmaid said:

Thanks for all the helpful comments and info. I must say I’m very tempted. 

I had an IS300h Advance in 2016. Coming from company car territory it beat the likes of Ford Vauxhall VW easily. When looking to get into a Lexus I considered the likes of the BMW 3 series and Audi A3, A4 and A5 - the IS was all round the best deal in terms of reliability, build quality, fir and finish and MPG considering I didn’t want a diesel at the time. I had the IS 3 years and in 2019 got into the next lease for an ES300h F Sport with Takumi pack.

I test drove a standard ES F Sport without any extras. The standard stereo is not good at all - I am comparing it to the standard sounds I had in the IS. The small screen looked lost in the massive dash mounted bezel and I didn’t like the standard grille hence going F Sport. Having learned at the time the only way to get the Mark Levinson System and a big screen was to put the Takumi pack on the deal, I took the plunge. Back then the 2019 ES didn’t come with apple Car Play etc. 

having gone for the upgraded sounds in particular, if you play from a crap source on a decent system you will only amplify crap sounds. I used Tidal and started using their master files - awesome - haven’t found a system better in this price range that matched the ML Sounds.

Later in 2019, I got an apple Car Play upgrade for £80.00 from the dealer - although I cannot speak for Android Auto, the ACP interface is a lot better to use than the standard Lexus interface.

Fast forward to May 2021, I was looking to put the private plate on the car, and having ignored the dealer on a good number of occasions with regard to trading up to a newer model, ended up swapping the 2019 ES for a 2021 ES300h F Sport with Takumi pack in then same colours. Effectively I reset the lease and parted with a £500 refundable deposit. I inherited 360 pano cam and blind spot monitor in moving from the MY19 to MY21. 

My original plan was to do a 3.5 year lease and get a loan and pay the balance on completion of the lease. Obviously that didn’t happen with the IS or my first ES but that’s the current plan with the MY21.

What a will point out that despite what your budget may or may not be, my 2019 ES was £43.8k list. Less than 18n months later the trade in value on paper was £28.8k with 9000 miles on the clock. The car spent a month on the dealer forecourt at £32.8k and sold for around £31k ish.
 

With this and your budget in mind, whether buying or leasing and I am assuming you’re looking at new cars, it may be an idea to look at a 12-18 month old model and ensure you land an ES with the ML sounds with ACP/AA. I would not look back myself - this will be a hard car to let go of unless another exceptional deal comes up. In addition to Tidal, I use YouTube, apple TV, apple Music and amazon Prime for music in the car which all now provide Hi Fi / Spacial Sound depending on the tracks content  - the system does the rest. The ML give you sound you can feel as well as hear - live music is like being at the concert wether your taste is classical through Pop / Rock to Metal and Alternative.

Before buying/leasing go and have a play with an ES with ML Sounds even if it’s not in your current budget, cue up You Tube, search for Queen Live Aid 1985 and make sure you have a USB lead with you. Start the car with all doors shut plug in and play the track at Volume 40 - I use this level on the motorways when in the car on my own - Awesome. 
 

The above also works well with an HD source such as apple TV, Tidal or amazon Music with Strong by London Grammer and any tracks by Hans Zimmer (Interstellar / Inception / Pirates of the Caribbean  / Gladiator) - I can guarantee if you end up with ML sounds in an ES in the 1st month of having the car you will spend hours  in the evening messing about with play lists.

Happy hunting - it will be interesting to see what you end up going with.

 

[diarmaid]

Thank you for that most comprehensive reply. Unfortunately the only way to get the ML here in Ireland is by buying the Premium spec version which is €13k more than the Dynamic. I want the MK for sure, but not that badly!

[Scoops]

No, you might have had a chance to get a good ex-demo version maybe? Anyway, the standard system is still good enough, in my opinion although it took a while to come to appreciate it. I wouldn't be too worried about it but we all like different things when it comes to audio so it is difficult to be too general about it.

 

[Mincey]

1 hour ago, Scoops said:

No, you might have had a chance to get a good ex-demo version maybe? Anyway, the standard system is still good enough, in my opinion although it took a while to come to appreciate it. I wouldn't be too worried about it but we all like different things when it comes to audio so it is difficult to be too general about it.

 

It's fine for me too. I had the ML in my IS250. There is a difference but it is one which I can live with.

[diarmaid]

Getting a test drive tomorrow in a Dynamic version in Sonic Platinum - a new colour for the facelift. It only had the Pioneer stereo so I’ll be sure to give it a good checking over and report back!

[LenT]

7 hours ago, diarmaid said:

Getting a test drive tomorrow in a Dynamic version in Sonic Platinum - a new colour for the facelift. It only had the Pioneer stereo so I’ll be sure to give it a good checking over and report back!

I’m intrigued.  
My aged hearing is such that whether the system was ML or Pioneer would be irrelevant.  In any case, I don’t think a car is the best environment for high fidelity music rendition in the first place.

But clearly there are those, possibly more discerning folk like yourself, for whom this is a matter of concern.

But is it really a deal breaker?  I can see that it might be a more significant factor if choosing between different examples of the same model - especially in the used car market.  But is it really a matter of, say, no ML then no Lexus?

[Scoops]

17 hours ago, LenT said:

 But is it really a matter of, say, no ML then no Lexus?

Personally, given that the Pioneer system is, in my opinion, good enough, I would say that it isn't a big enough difference even though the ML system is noticeably better. You also get those lovely front door speakers and grills! You are quite right that a car isn't the best place to enjoy high fidelity audio though - even though as you start to move to the quieter cars it starts to make more of a difference.

Lexus have always put the ML behind some kind of 'need a higher level of trim model' wall anyway so the cost of entry has probably, for more people anyway, meant that it wasn't worth worrying about too much.

[diarmaid]

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. I had a good test drive today. I thought it drove very well and looked great. Also the Pioneer system seemed fine if a little too front biased. The infotainment system wasn't a patch on the iDrive in terms of ease of use but it was ok and I'd say you'd get used to it. But there was one thing that has put me off - the driver's seat was far too high for me even at the lowest position. My head was close to the roof and I was looking through the top of the windscreen. I'm 6'3'' and I like to sit low. I just don't think I could get used to that driving position unfortunately. Everything else was good.

[peniole]

1 hour ago, diarmaid said:

Thanks to everyone for your helpful comments. I had a good test drive today. I thought it drove very well and looked great. Also the Pioneer system seemed fine if a little too front biased. The infotainment system wasn't a patch on the iDrive in terms of ease of use but it was ok and I'd say you'd get used to it. But there was one thing that has put me off - the driver's seat was far too high for me even at the lowest position. My head was close to the roof and I was looking through the top of the windscreen. I'm 6'3'' and I like to sit low. I just don't think I could get used to that driving position unfortunately. Everything else was good.

Toyota seating position. At 6.3, especially if you have a normal leg to torso ratio, I don't, you will be just under the headliner. Shame. Don't think there's a way round that. You might like some of Honda's offerings, they have the low Honda seating position (with the exception of the 9th gen civic). Unfortunately no Accords here, civic would be a step down, noisier but goes around corners like it's glued to the ground, and gets 50ishMPG. CRV is pretty comfortable, a hybrid, but an SUV.

If it's sedans/saloons or estates you're after I'm afraid it sends you right back to ze Germans.

I was in the same predicament. Only other alternatives were Volvo S90/V90. Cramped in comparison to the ES. Skoda superb, big, but material quality and engines were blah. Jag XF, also cramped, questionable reliability, and zigzaggy lane keep, and I mean zigzaggy all the way to the line and back. Mazda 6, dinosaur thirsty 2.5L engine. Although I hear the new one, not out yet, may be something worth testing. LS actually has less front headroom than ES.

Am I missing anything?

[diarmaid]

Yes, it is a pity. It pretty much rules it out for me.  

[Tonyw]

1 hour ago, peniole said:

Toyota seating position. At 6.3, especially if you have a normal leg to torso ratio, I don't, you will be just under the headliner. Shame. Don't think there's a way round that. You might like some of Honda's offerings, they have the low Honda seating position (with the exception of the 9th gen civic). Unfortunately no Accords here, civic would be a step down, noisier but goes around corners like it's glued to the ground, and gets 50ishMPG. CRV is pretty comfortable, a hybrid, but an SUV.

If it's sedans/saloons or estates you're after I'm afraid it sends you right back to ze Germans.

I was in the same predicament. Only other alternatives were Volvo S90/V90. Cramped in comparison to the ES. Skoda superb, big, but material quality and engines were blah. Jag XF, also cramped, questionable reliability, and zigzaggy lane keep, and I mean zigzaggy all the way to the line and back. Mazda 6, dinosaur thirsty 2.5L engine. Although I hear the new one, not out yet, may be something worth testing. LS actually has less front headroom than ES.

Am I missing anything?

Wait for a Genesis? Or pick up a Stinger 

[diarmaid]

No Genesis here yet. Had a Stinger before. Great car but discontinued here.