NOW then, what's the C02 carbon footprint of a brand new Ls ??

[Malc]

I popped this onto another thread the other day .............. 

NOW then, what's the C02 carbon footprint of a brand new car delivered to one  I wonder, say a brand new Ls 

Just trying to evaluate the benefits, carbonwise / climate saving wise, of changing to a brand new Ls  ......  besides the obvious " benefit " of reducing my bank balance by @£100k all-up    ........  replacing my aged 26 year young Ls400  that owes me about £600 yet to fully depreciate after 10 years of ownership at about 12k miles a year

Your well considered thoughts please one and all 

Thank you

Malc

[Malc]

or indeed to satiate the EV afficionados we should compare the  Ls  C02 build costs to that of the best Tesla 

Malc

[BigBoomer]

Switching to the LS500h will improve your MPG, but it's only a shift from 23 to 33Mpg(UK) average.
If you were switching to a pure EV then it could be of benefit to your Carbon footprint (after several years) if you did , but the slight improvement in Mpg coupled to the carbon cost of manufacturing a new hybrid car is not going to shrink your footprint much, if any.
Almost all of the pure EV carbon gains are calculated vs new cars and are calculated for a 100,000 mile lifespan.
On that basis, most of our cars are already dead, and some are really flogging the corpse of their 200,000+ mile LSes 🤣

What is the most you have ever spent on a car Malc? Have you ever bought a new car?
In my case it is £7,000, I have never bought a new car, but I did once spend £11,000 on a new motorcycle. 
I will be switching to pure EV once I can get a decent one in my price range, but that may never happen.
If prices follow current trends then I may be able to afford a used early Tesla S in 2028 or thereabouts but if I need to buy a new Battery pack for it, that will get pushed back even further.

If I won the lottery jackpot then I would consider a Tesla S or something similar (Porsche Taycan?) but otherwise I don't see a pure EV in my future.
If my LS dies, then I will almost certainly replace it with another used LS, maybe a 460/600 but probably another 430.
Given my current annual mileage, it should outlast me.

[Malc]

5 hours ago, BigBoomer said:

What is the most you have ever spent on a car Malc? Have you ever bought a new car?

well yes I have bought a brand spanking new car .... a 1969 Hillman Imp when I was 19 ...  then a Bank Mgrs car when I was one of those delightful Bankers and the car was a real perk ...  loooooong ago now .................. in all the time I was a banker I did 63 miles on bank business and the bank owned Vauxhall Carlton I bought for peanuts from the bank when I was made redundant and that lasted just over 200k miles ....  a wonderful car, yes it really was, took me over Europe a little too

Probably the most I ever paid for a car was buying my 1932 Triumph Southern Cross Sports Tourer when I was co-owner ( about 25 years ago ) of my car sales business, long long time ago too ............. C02 footprint of that was possibly negligible ......... it burns E5 octane fuel .....  will I have to scrap that too 

My present Ls400 cost me  £1400   10.5 years and 110k miles ago ............... good for another 26 years methinks, will for sure outlast me without a single doubt

The real purpose of the post : 

I'd just like to understand how the overall carbon footprint of a brand new car, including the manufacturing C02 costs, stacks up,   say the Lexus Ls vs the very best Tesla and to try to understand what's so wrong with keeping old cars on the road and going ...........  even tho' they may be consuming fossil fuels directly, rather than indirectly thru' EV usage and C02 cost of manufacturing electric for the EV from very often, I surmise, fossil fuels too ??

Is this really too complex a Q to be answered by anyone I wonder

Malc

[The-Acre]

My guess is that whatever you do it will never be good enough for climate activists, it never is. I find it quite astonishing that we're not being encouraged to make the change to hybrids as a positive step in the "right direction"

[BigBoomer]

I also loved my Carltons, especially the 2.6 Diplomat.

This article compares conventional vs hybrid vs EV.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change
You can see how the total lifetime carbon emissions vary substantially depending on how "green" a countries energy sources are, but all EVs are lower carbon than both conventional and hybrid cars.

If I was a new car buyer and I had to buy now, I'd buy hybrid or plugin Hybrid (PHEV).
If I could wait 5 years, then EV is definitely going to be the way to go.

As used car buyers, we will be buying petrol/diesel for a while yet.

[Malc]

1 hour ago, BigBoomer said:

As used car buyers, we will be buying petrol/diesel for a while yet

and then of course into the new fandangled Hydrogen Powered cars for sure ................  when EVs are consigned to the tip as are diesels to be now ......... which were so so pushed in our faces as the " green " way to go all those years back 

 

1 hour ago, BigBoomer said:

This article compares conventional vs hybrid vs EV.

and of course this article, along with all others they push out at us, seem to totally ignore the manufactured carbon etc cost of producing the whole car ....... you know, doors, bonnet, boot, seats , shell etc ................ then it's scrappage after it's 100k miles/kms life 

it's all on emissions and Battery life and production  ........  where's the true figures I wonder !

When someone with reputational knowledge can actually be totally honest and truthful about it all, and the climate's need to scrap all older cars, buses, trucks etc then I'll try to understand what's being said ............  but until then ................

do you think anyone's going to be able to answer my initial Q ? 

Malc

[The-Acre]

I'm guessing the answer to your original question may not even be the whole truth, even if you do get an answer, which is unlikely.  I was reading an article this week about the new EV's for 2022, none, except the most expensive would get me to my destination of Land End next week without the need for a charging stop. Even so, the self catering cottage doesn't have a charging point, neither does the closest town, there's a loooong way to go yet, and at my age I don't need range anxiety to add to life's list!

[Malc]

nothing like a 4 ltr V8 to get you to your destination and maybe back with zero angst about fuel .......  de-stress and dump the prospect of a silly ( for you ) EV

Malc

[The-Acre]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

nothing like a 4 ltr V8 to get you to your destination and maybe back with zero angst about fuel .......  de-stress and dump the prospect of a silly ( for you ) EV

Malc

We've arrived in the far west of Cornwall, still over 200 miles of fuel after covering 300, although I did notice the Jamaica Inn on Bodmin moor has 4 electric charging points, so good for them, so I could have made it in an EV....unless it was during half term! Unfortunately the traffic going the other way, due to the end of the aforementioned half term was at a standstill in many places, and the service areas with their EV points were overwhelmed. The CR-V performed well, but the last trip here in the Celsior was very hushed!

[peniole]

From what I've read a long time ago, don't have the lit to hand. Carbon wise it's better to keep your own car going than scrapping and buying new, even if the new is an EV.

[peniole]

Here's a reasonable argument for the above https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/keeping-your-old-gasoline-car-vs-buying-an-electric-car-which-is-better-f04b6ba32ea1

based on these numbers https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/attach/2015/11/Cleaner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

[dutchie01]

I had a Carlton too although it was called the Opel Omega overhere. Great car 6 cylinder diesel estate. Kids were young then and i used to collect them from all over the village. Bikes in the back no problem. Went to Spain twice fully loaded. Great memories!

About carbon footprint. Yes that question can be answered but the devil is in the detail. Car factories nowadays are like assembly plants with thousands and thousands of parts literally arriving just in time from all over the world. All that needs to be included. What distance from plant, way of transport etc. Then energy needed for production how is energy created and so on. All these statistics will be available but i guess manufacturers are not keen to disclose them as it could be a pr nightmare. Just think what would happen if Tesla model 3 could be dirtier cradle to cradle than an average diesel. I peronally think it is better for the environment to keep a car on the road for decades than it is to switch cars every 3 years like i have done for the last 4 decades ( company cars).

The way governments look at this is different and more simplistic. Co2. Thats it. Take all cars in a country and upload the Co2 figures will give you an overall Co2 figure. And here you have the key to steer policy. The overall pollution of cars in country X has fallen by only 6% in the last 5 years whilst 9,2567% was needed so new policy is needed to reach the goal we have agreed in 2 years. Fiscal stimulation of BEV,s costing billions but influences the overall Co2 figs. Cash for clunks or whatever it is called, Environmental zones you cannot enter with cars older than 15 years diesels or even petrol ( only BEV). And. So. On.

Its a multi billion Dollar casino funded by tax payers 

[Malc]

17 hours ago, peniole said:

based on these numbers

thanks for this BUT this paper was issued some 6 years ago ( and I presume the analysis data might have changed in that time ) AND more importantly, jumping I admit to Sec C .  there's zero mention of the upholstery, glass, electronics, cabling etc that  " form the whole "  of a vehicle to be manufactured and recycled

That really is quite a part in the CO2 carbon footprint issue too is it not ? 

I still await seeing somewhere that ALL this true data .....  including the delivery of parts train mentioned above ...........  is considered rather than the piecemeal data that whomsoever ( especially maybe Tesla and the EV brigade ) want us to see 

Malc

[peniole]

I did say a long time ago 😀

In any case the 17 tons of CO2 is very likely an underestimation. So unless your car will emit that in the next 10 years, I say the argument still stands that keeping an already built ICE car will likely be better CO2 wise than buying a new EV.

[royoftherovers]

7 minutes ago, peniole said:

I did say a long time ago 😀

In any case the 17 tons of CO2 is very likely an underestimation. So unless your car will emit that in the next 10 years, I say the argument still stands that keeping an already built ICE car will likely be better CO2 wise than buying a new EV.

I agree.

[Las Palmas]

2 hours ago, Malc said:

thanks for this BUT this paper was issued some 6 years ago ( and I presume the analysis data might have changed in that time ) AND more importantly, jumping I admit to Sec C .  there's zero mention of the upholstery, glass, electronics, cabling etc that  " form the whole "  of a vehicle to be manufactured and recycled

That really is quite a part in the CO2 carbon footprint issue too is it not ? 

I still await seeing somewhere that ALL this true data .....  including the delivery of parts train mentioned above ...........  is considered rather than the piecemeal data that whomsoever ( especially maybe Tesla and the EV brigade ) want us to see 

Malc

I doubt that all the expenses and pollution sources will ever be included.

See that the oil industry is being blamed for trying to sell oil (not informing the pollution level they knew was there, just like the cigaret/tobacco factories knew that smoking was not healthy) while the problem is that the politicians are and always have been too stupid (or corrupt) to figure any such thing out themselves.

We pollute and as has been said before - private transport in cars is so little part of the overall pollution that even if we reduce by 50% it will not mean .05% in the overall problem.

The politicians meeting now are going to do what politicians always have done: Nothing.

[Malc]

1 minute ago, Las Palmas said:

what politicians always have done

and the Biden calvacade to visit the Pope, due to covid distancing imposed by the Pope they said, involved 50, yes   FIFTY   cavalcade cars

Tea and coffee at the Vatican don't come cheap you know 

Malc

[dutchie01]

29 minutes ago, Malc said:

and the Biden calvacade to visit the Pope, due to covid distancing imposed by the Pope they said, involved 50, yes   FIFTY   cavalcade cars

Tea and coffee at the Vatican don't come cheap you know 

Malc

Malc, you forget the 4 Sea King helicopters, 8 Apaches, 1 Boeing 747, 2 x 767 and a whole string of white unregistered aircraft arriving in the weeks leading to the visit. These carry not only a couple of hundred secret service and special forces but also the 50 or so armored vans, chevys and even a rolling hospital. I witnessed this years ago when Obama did visit Amsterdam. People living in the adjacent buildings were not allowed to approach the windows or go outside and complete highways were closed. Its an occupying force in itself. And the cadillac "beast "is plane ugly. 

[scythe]

This article is eleven years old, but is nevertheless interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

: o )

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, scythe said:

This article is eleven years old, but is nevertheless interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car

: o )

A great article Scy. Many thanks. It says what many of us think.

A pity that Politicians cannot see sense.

[Malc]

7 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

A pity that Politicians cannot see sense.

nor indeed those with vested interests in manufacturing and selling brand new cars too  ....  now then, where's the carbon footprint figures for the Bezos , Tesla guy's, amazon, Branson/Virgin ventures into the final frontier ....  SPACE ..............  I can forgive Shatner at age 90 for doing what he invented .....  virtual space travel I guess , now doing the " real thing " BUT the others, well, a jolly at the cost of destroying the planet .......  summat not quite right there without them all being totally honest on the planet's climate cost please vs a vs their own supposed ethos of " saving the planet "

Sir David Attenborough, please step up to the plate and give us your revered views on this expectation ........... and careless attitude of the rich and ( in ) famous

Good 'ol Sir David eh! wot  a tremendous guy and now age 95 

Malc

[Rabbers]

18 hours ago, Malc said:

and the Biden calvacade to visit the Pope, due to covid distancing imposed by the Pope they said, involved 50, yes   FIFTY   cavalcade cars …

The local press counted, believe it or not (which I do), no less than 80 (yes EIGHTY) vehicles in the motorcade.  50, I think, was CNN’s figure, probably intended to alarm its audience less.

[VFR]

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, VFR said:

 

Excellent Brian, thank you.