Lexus GS4 - Battery draining

[lexusisfan]

Hi All,

As some of you are aware, I've purchased a 2017 Lexus Gs300h F Sport back in May 2021 with 13k on the clock from a main dealer.

A few weeks after purchasing the car, it wouldn't start. I called the Lexus Roadside Assistance and the AA came in and jump started the car. I was told that the Battery was fine and I must have left something on (?!).

It drove fine over the last few months and the maximum it was left without being driven was for 4 days.

I've just returned from holiday on Sunday and the car has not been driven for 8 days.

I attempted to start it yesterday and it took a couple of attemps but managed to get it going and took it for a long drive.

This morning, the same happened where it took me three attemps to start it.

Am I right to assume that it might need a new Battery? It currently has just 16k on the clock so would it be covered under warranty?

Your advise would be much appreciated.

 

[Herbie]

43 minutes ago, lexusisfan said:

It currently has just 16k on the clock so would it be covered under warranty?

Batteries go by age rather than mileage so I doubt very much it'll be under any warranty. I'd say it's just time for a new one.

[steveledzep]

27 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Batteries go by age rather than mileage so I doubt very much it'll be under any warranty. I'd say it's just time for a new one.

I agree, 4 or 5 years for a Battery.

You don't need to take a hybrid for a drive to charge the Battery.  Just put it in "Ready" mode and leave it parked.  It charges from the traction Battery and the ICE kicks in when necessary to maintain the charge.  Just watch it doesn't get nicked.

[Pielight]

Mileage is pretty low, suggesting that the car has either stood idle a fair bit, or been used for a lot of short journeys (or a combination of both) - either will shorten Battery life. My 2017 gsf had a new Battery fitted just prior to me buying it at less than 2.5 years old (I believe it had stood a around fair while - allowing a car to stand with a discharged Battery will kill said battery), so 4 years is not particularly out of the ordinary. As mentioned, unlike covered by warranty.

[Shabby]

I agree with the previous replies plus I'd have the alternator checked to see that it's charging the Battery properly.

[KayCee]

Lexy

this as happened to me on 2 occasions on purchase of new models  if these cars with this type of Battery are left to go flat they will let you down.

when i got mine from Tonbridge wells I specifally asked if the Battery had been changed as it had been stood for a few months they said the Battery is ok it checked out ok with our tester when i got it home on the saturday was ok after 200 ml journey didnt use it on Sunday 

Monday morning wouldnt start i got in touch with Tonbridge and they arranged to have the Battery changed at Hull. I got it jumped as it was showing 11.2 volts had run and was showing 12.6 man at Battery depot Said its ok now 2days later flat again.

You can get a cerc charger and recon it or get the Battery changed the latter best option they are 200 notes but peice of mind for that we now got colder weather it will let you down again

Advice Change Battery

Robert

 

 

[lexusisfan]

Many thanks for all your replies.

Any recommendations for batteries?

[essldn]

Starter motor, if there is one ?

[Herbie]

2 hours ago, Shabby said:

I agree with the previous replies plus I'd have the alternator checked to see that it's charging the battery properly.

They don't have alternators or starter motors, everything is done via the high voltage traction Battery.

[Duggie B]

If you can hook it up to a C Tek charger and let it keep the Battery topped up I've had to do it with my 2018 GS also can put it into recondition mode which worked wonders on my 12v Battery

[wharfhouse]

If you purchased from a franchised Lexus dealer in May 2021 then you would still have the remainder of a 12 month Used Car Extended Warranty - although I don't think this would in itself cover the 12V Battery it may be worth asking the Lexus dealer, although if you didn't report the issues with the 12V Battery just after buying the car may be harder to make anything stick. My IS 300h is now 7 years old with 108K miles (I purchased it at 2 years old with 40K miles so it had been used regularly before I purchased it) and it is still on its original 12V Battery but the car gets used regularly (even during the worst of the lockdowns it was out at least once a week). Last January I left it for a week in sub-zero temperatures and it started with no problem and since then have again left it for a week (in warmer temps) and it has started with no issues. So the Battery will last (in time and mileage) when used regularly but from reports, 12V Battery life on Lexus/Toyota seem to be severely impacted once a Battery has been left to go flat and of course you have no way of knowing what happened before you bought the car. I do always keep one of the glovebox lithium jump packs in the car just in case as one day as sure as eggs-are-eggs the 12V Battery will fail. I believe the 12V batteries are around £140 to get replaced by a Lexus dealer.

[Herbie]

17 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

you would still have the remainder of a 12 month Used Car Extended Warranty - although I don't think this would in itself cover the 12V battery it may be worth asking the Lexus dealer

You're correct, the warranty doesn't cover batteries but nothing to lose by asking.

[KayCee]

Phil is correct if the Battery is allowed to run down then recharged it will lose  a bit of its capacity I know its happened to me twice after buying Lexus after they have been stood on dealers forecourt.

I complained straight away and i got mine replaced by Lexus and arranged with Lexus Hull to fit it.

You can get them from Lexus Parts Direct for around 200 but a Toyota dealer can maybe get you one for around 140 as Phil said but the batteries are a funny size and you will find it difficult to find a Battery that will fit it can be done chopping a bit of the Battery case but i would not reccomend that.

Bite the bullet and get one from LexusPartsDirect save all the grief the colder it gets the worse it will be

Just my 2 pennorth

Robert

 

[royoftherovers]

6 hours ago, lexusisfan said:

Many thanks for all your replies.

Any recommendations for batteries?

And I disagree with ALL of the advices you have received. If you bought from a Dealer within the last six months (and you said you did ) it is his responsibility under Consumer Protection Legislation to diagnose, repair or replace the necessary items at his cost.

Do not be dissuaded otherwise.

[KayCee]

sound advice John

i didnt think you would be Long but i think the reality will be a long job there will be more hoops to jump through

[Pielight]

11 hours ago, Duggie B said:

If you can hook it up to a C Tek charger and let it keep the battery topped up I've had to do it with my 2018 GS also can put it into recondition mode which worked wonders on my 12v battery

+1.   If a car is to stand idle, connecting a trickle charger will maintain charge and keep Battery in good order. I use several of them on my motorbikes over winter and they work great. I have the well known optimate brand (CTek are also highly regarded), but I find the Aldi ones to be every bit as good and they are a quarter of the price or less (around 12.99)…I have 3 of them…model is XS or something like that.

[Steven Lockey]

6 hours ago, Pielight said:

+1.   If a car is to stand idle, connecting a trickle charger will maintain charge and keep battery in good order. I use several of them on my motorbikes over winter and they work great. I have the well known optimate brand (CTek are also highly regarded), but I find the Aldi ones to be every bit as good and they are a quarter of the price or less (around 12.99)…I have 3 of them…model is XS or something like that.

But the 450h and I assume the 300h automatically trickle charge the 12v Battery from the hybrid Battery anyway while
the car is turned off. 

I've tested this a few times (accidently) by leaving the car in standby mode which solely uses the 12v Battery, so long as you catch it before the 12v is too flat be trickle charged, so long as there is power in the traction Battery, it will gradually recharge the 12v Battery enough to start the car and switch to using the traction Battery.

100% sure there is some charging of the 12V going on because it was basically dead once when I get back from a walk in the forest, (I left the lights on DOH), would lock/unlock but that was about it, no lights on dash e.t.c. Turned it completly off and left it for 10 mins (while I was looking up my rescue service on my phone), was about to call for help and thought sod it, and hit the power button one last time and the car started perfectly normally. Zero chance it would of had enough power to start the car without some form of charging, just sitting for 10 mins might allow it a tiny bit more power but it just had far too little charge left in it for that.

Don't try this unless you having a jump-start nearby cos if you drain the 12V too much then all the trickle charging in the world won't help, you need a proper charger to get that initial charge back into the Battery when they are completely flat.

[wharfhouse]

2 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

But the 450h and I assume the 300h automatically trickle charge the 12v battery from the hybrid battery anyway while
the car is turned off. 

I've tested this a few times (accidently) by leaving the car in standby mode which solely uses the 12v battery, so long as you catch it before the 12v is too flat be trickle charged, so long as there is power in the traction battery, it will gradually recharge the 12v battery enough to start the car and switch to using the traction battery.

100% sure there is some charging of the 12V going on because it was basically dead once when I get back from a walk in the forest, (I left the lights on DOH), would lock/unlock but that was about it, no lights on dash e.t.c. Turned it completly off and left it for 10 mins (while I was looking up my rescue service on my phone), was about to call for help and thought sod it, and hit the power button one last time and the car started perfectly normally. Zero chance it would of had enough power to start the car without some form of charging, just sitting for 10 mins might allow it a tiny bit more power but it just had far too little charge left in it for that.

Don't try this unless you having a jump-start nearby cos if you drain the 12V too much then all the trickle charging in the world won't help, you need a proper charger to get that initial charge back into the battery when they are completely flat.

A 12V Battery that has been draining will often recover a bit when left to stand for a while once the drain has been stopped. Had the same happen in a normal ICE (not hybrid) car to me. I'd left the lights on and came back and so the car would not start. Switched the lights off and let it stand for for a while and then the Battery recovered enough to crank the engine over and get it started. On a hybrid the starting requirements are a lot lower than with a starter motor as well of course. However, to my knowledge there is no trickle charging of the 12V Battery in our cars once the power is off and the car had been left - it only charges when the power is on and if the computers can't boot off the 12V there is no charging going to happen. 

[Herbie]

3 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

But the 450h and I assume the 300h automatically trickle charge the 12v battery from the hybrid battery anyway while
the car is turned off. 

I've tested this a few times (accidently) by leaving the car in standby mode which solely uses the 12v battery, so long as you catch it before the 12v is too flat be trickle charged, so long as there is power in the traction battery, it will gradually recharge the 12v battery enough to start the car and switch to using the traction battery.

100% sure there is some charging of the 12V going on because it was basically dead once when I get back from a walk in the forest, (I left the lights on DOH), would lock/unlock but that was about it, no lights on dash e.t.c. Turned it completly off and left it for 10 mins (while I was looking up my rescue service on my phone), was about to call for help and thought sod it, and hit the power button one last time and the car started perfectly normally. Zero chance it would of had enough power to start the car without some form of charging, just sitting for 10 mins might allow it a tiny bit more power but it just had far too little charge left in it for that.

Don't try this unless you having a jump-start nearby cos if you drain the 12V too much then all the trickle charging in the world won't help, you need a proper charger to get that initial charge back into the battery when they are completely flat.

Sorry Steven but that just doesn't happen.

When the car is in READY mode then the traction Battery does indeed keep the 12V Battery charged, via a DC/DC converter that lowers the 300-ish volts to around 14.5V. If the car is not in READY mode then that DC/DC converter is not operating so it can't trickle charge anything.

[Steven Lockey]

Odd, seen this happen when there is a little left in the Battery, but never to the point where the car wouldn't even go onto standby mode to perfectly normal and I'd already tried all the tricks to eek that last bit of charge out the 12V but that didn't seem to have any effect.

Maybe my 12V is just really odd 🙂

[Pielight]

13 hours ago, Steven Lockey said:

But the 450h and I assume the 300h automatically trickle charge the 12v battery from the hybrid battery anyway while
the car is turned off. 

I've tested this a few times (accidently) by leaving the car in standby mode which solely uses the 12v battery, so long as you catch it before the 12v is too flat be trickle charged, so long as there is power in the traction battery, it will gradually recharge the 12v battery enough to start the car and switch to using the traction battery.

100% sure there is some charging of the 12V going on because it was basically dead once when I get back from a walk in the forest, (I left the lights on DOH), would lock/unlock but that was about it, no lights on dash e.t.c. Turned it completly off and left it for 10 mins (while I was looking up my rescue service on my phone), was about to call for help and thought sod it, and hit the power button one last time and the car started perfectly normally. Zero chance it would of had enough power to start the car without some form of charging, just sitting for 10 mins might allow it a tiny bit more power but it just had far too little charge left in it for that.

Don't try this unless you having a jump-start nearby cos if you drain the 12V too much then all the trickle charging in the world won't help, you need a proper charger to get that initial charge back into the battery when they are completely flat.

As Phil mentioned, a Battery will recover to some degree if you leave it for a while. I've done this many times over the years on both cars and motorcycles that wouldn't start. Invariably if you leave them a while and try after 15 minutes or so, the Battery will have recovered quite considerably to spin the engine again. 

If you think about it, if the traction Battery charged the 12v Battery with car dead, if you left the lights on why did the 12v Battery go flat in the first place? Surely the traction Battery would maintain the charge until it became discharged as well?

Trickle charger is the best way of looking after a Battery on an idle car.

[Steven Lockey]

2 hours ago, Pielight said:

As Phil mentioned, a battery will recover to some degree if you leave it for a while. I've done this many times over the years on both cars and motorcycles that wouldn't start. Invariably if you leave them a while and try after 15 minutes or so, the battery will have recovered quite considerably to spin the engine again. 

If you think about it, if the traction battery charged the 12v battery with car dead, if you left the lights on why did the 12v battery go flat in the first place? Surely the traction battery would maintain the charge until it became discharged as well?

Trickle charger is the best way of looking after a battery on an idle car.

Yeah just normally if the Battery is that flat, it isn't coming back without charging. Worked with reconditioning batteries a lot in a previous job so am quite familiar with them recovering slightly after a rest, just not to that degree. It can happen but its rarer, particularly with larger liquid core batteries.

Also the Battery would still go flat if the trickle charge amount was less than the amount drawn.

[Pielight]

16 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

Also the battery would still go flat if the trickle charge amount was less than the amount drawn.

The drain should be minimal (unless lights left on!) with only immobiliser/alarm drawing current- any half decent trickle charger will be up to that. I have a few on my motorbikes - most cost effective are Aldis own (XS is model as remember) and they work as well as the optimate I have for less than quarter price.

[Herbie]

45 minutes ago, Steven Lockey said:

Yeah just normally if the battery is that flat, it isn't coming back without charging.

Conventional cars with starter motors can suffer from a rapid clicking called 'solenoid chatter' when the Battery is low.

There's enough power to energise the starter solenoid and pull in the contacts but as soon as that happens and power is passed to the starter motor the Battery voltage drops like a stone. This causes the solenoid to release and Battery voltage again climbs high enough to energise the solenoid, pull in the contacts and so it goes on until you release the key.

Conventional starter motors will draw upwards of 300A when cranking the engine, but a hybrid takes less than 20A to get the car into READY mode.

[Steven Lockey]

6 hours ago, Herbie said:

Conventional cars with starter motors can suffer from a rapid clicking called 'solenoid chatter' when the battery is low.

There's enough power to energise the starter solenoid and pull in the contacts but as soon as that happens and power is passed to the starter motor the battery voltage drops like a stone. This causes the solenoid to release and battery voltage again climbs high enough to energise the solenoid, pull in the contacts and so it goes on until you release the key.

Conventional starter motors will draw upwards of 300A when cranking the engine, but a hybrid takes less than 20A to get the car into READY mode.

Yeah but what I was saying was the Battery was so flat, it wouldn't even have activated the solenoid on a normal car. Literally wouldn't even run any internal lights or the security system e.t.c.

Batteries that hit that level normally experience zero recovery without charging. You need a certain amount of residual charge remaining in the Battery in order for there to be sufficient force internally in the Battery to move the trapped electrons to the cathode, cos basically all you are doing when resting the Battery is giving those trapped electrons time to escape where they are trapped. Without sufficient residual charge, they will never escape. This is one of the main causes of Battery degradation, where the crystal build-ups get so thick that the electrons can't escape even at full charge. This is why hitting/shaking a Battery can actually cause charge and Battery life to be restored as the internal crystal formations can break down when you do this. 

As its an older Battery (it the original) its likely mine has a lot of crystalline formations near the cathode and one of those degraded which released sufficient charge to start the car. The formation and break-down of these crystals inside the Battery during charge/recharge cycles is one of the main reasons that old batteries not only lose capacity but become a lot more temperamental than new batteries.

Just been doing some reading as well, seems that even if the car doesn't start due to low 12V Battery, one of the first things the computer does is open the hybrid Battery relays, which charges the high voltage system including the converter, which would then shut off as the 12V failed, but would leave the high voltage system charged and the only outlet for that power to be the 12V Battery, so it'd basically give the 12V Battery a little bump of power which that charge dissipates from the high voltage system (which can take up to 10 minutes according to the lexus dismantling manual). So its possible that attempting to start the car actually shunted more power into the 12V Battery than it took out the Battery and that was why it started up normally 10 minutes later. If your 12V Battery is truly dead however, that isn't going to help 🙂