Formula one

[Shahpor]

18 hours ago, VFR said:

In touring cars the block pass so loved by MV where you throw it up the inside & hope to either lean on the outside car to make the bend or force it off is not for open wheel racing.

That is what he carried out on Hamilton on the first bend, either Hamilton braked to avoid the collision or ran off the track (as we saw) So if Hamilton gained an advantage good as it was MV who caused it the same as the last race where it actually penalised Hamilton.

That distasteful team & driver now have what they wanted but history will always view it as so just like a couple of Schumachers titles.

Lewis fan perhaps?

2 British World Champions agreed with Martin Brundle that Max didn't do anything wrong and stayed within the white lines of the track, whereas Lewis didn't try to make the corner and simply cut it completely, hence gaining an advantage.

As for how history will view this season in future, I believe it will go down as one of the best ever crowning a worthy champion with nothing distasteful about it.

[paulrnx]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

TV Coverage has been a deciding factor even in the Ecclestone period. Bernie asked Tilke for new tracks in new countries with 1st and 2nd gear corners so a company logo would be framed by the camera for exactly XYZ seconds. This is how they got new sponsors. It was all about money and still is. the old school racetracks are for the old school fans only ( me included). the new generation does not give one toss and probably prefers Saudi Arabia above Belgium. So many people that did visit last weekends race were filming themselves watching the action !?! Paul try visiting a historic GP event if possible, it is how it was. Gentlemen-like and a civilized international crowd quietly discussing engines, over steer and that other car that always was faster in the 78 GP come on what was the name....  

I do Goodwood Festival of Speed every year and I do historic festivals whenever I can. I love all eras of F1, always have done.

[paulrnx]

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Lewis fan perhaps?

2 British World Champions agreed with Martin Brundle that Max didn't do anything wrong and stayed within the white lines of the track, whereas Lewis didn't try to make the corner and simply cut it completely, hence gaining an advantage.

As for how history will view this season in future, I believe it will go down as one of the best ever crowning a worthy champion with nothing distasteful about it.

Max fan perhaps?

[First_Lexus]

7 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Max fan perhaps?

Has everybody else noticed how clear Verstappen’s skin is? I guess it must be the Max factor…

I’ll get my coat…

[VFR]

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Lewis fan perhaps?

2 British World Champions agreed with Martin Brundle that Max didn't do anything wrong and stayed within the white lines of the track, whereas Lewis didn't try to make the corner and simply cut it completely, hence gaining an advantage.

As for how history will view this season in future, I believe it will go down as one of the best ever crowning a worthy champion with nothing distasteful about it.

On balance yes compared to Max.

Lewis didn’t try to make the corner ?, how anyone can come to that conclusion is beyond me as had he tried they would have collided which is why the block pass is used.

He took the only course open to him other than crash, use the run off. Yes of course from your prospective he should have simply jumped on the brakes and then gone back a few places so if that is what you prefer to see then fine.

It is well known & has been for some time that that is MV’s modus operandi but to many it is distasteful regardless of who is doing it.

[dutchie01]

47 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

I do Goodwood Festival of Speed every year and I do historic festivals whenever I can. I love all eras of F1, always have done.

Never been to goodwood but have seen lots of it on internet. Great to see these old cars doing what they were made for, racing. Been to Spa dn Zandvoort regularly. Great to walk around in the pits, smell the cars

[First_Lexus]

6 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Never been to goodwood but have seen lots of it on internet. Great to see these old cars doing what they were made for, racing. Been to Spa dn Zandvoort regularly. Great to walk around in the pits, smell the cars

I went to a historic racing day at Silverstone a few years ago, with access to the pits. A truly memorable and fantastic experience. Goodwood is definitely on my post-pandemic ‘must do’ list!

[-Error-]

Goodwood FOS or Revival are absolutely great events; Revival puts you in such great atmosphere, it deserves public TV coverage just as much as F1 or music festivals.

I've been to Silverstone Classic as well and it's another great day. Even if you just sit trackside at Copse or Wellington, breath in the fumes and listen to the engines.

 

Goodwood does turn very expensive if you want to experience it to the full with everything being barricaded for premium paying customers. General admission is great though and more than enough for one weekend. Oh, and bring your car keys with you whatever brand you own, some have VIP areas accessible to owners, they tend to keep some concept cars hidden away from general admission and let you have a sneak peak.

[Shahpor]

35 minutes ago, VFR said:

On balance yes compared to Max.

Lewis didn’t try to make the corner ?, how anyone can come to that conclusion is beyond me as had he tried they would have collided which is why the block pass is used.

He took the only course open to him other than crash, use the run off. Yes of course from your prospective he should have simply jumped on the brakes and then gone back a few places so if that is what you prefer to see then fine.

It is well known & has been for some time that that is MV’s modus operandi but to many it is distasteful regardless of who is doing it.

Without trying to get into an Internet slanging match, what I am referring to is the following:

At this point you can see that Lewis hasn't made the corner, which is fair enough:

However, what he should have done was steer left to try and still make the apex.  Instead, he did this:

And gained an advantage.

It is better described here where the last picture shows him steering right instead of left.  You can also see on this site that the majority polled voted that the stewards should have penalised him for it.

As for Max's driving style, it is fair enough that not everyone agrees with it, and I do admit that it is definitely 'robust' at times, but it isn't against any rules and has been done before with success including from Lewis himself:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/jun/18/lewis-hamilton-formula-one-controversy

[dutchie01]

Easy solution to above problem. Replace the run off area with a graveltrap or just grass. Nobody will drive onto it, drivers take the room they are given.

Real issue this year is that we have seen several identical moves this year from various drivers not only Max or Lewis but they were judged differently. A yellow card is a yellow card. Off side is off side. consistency is bitterly needed here to prevent endless discussions. Cross the line is penalty. Like it used to be.

BTW it is called Motor Racing and this year has given us so much more than the past 7 years of Mercedes processions. Bring on 2022!

[-Error-]

48 minutes ago, VFR said:

It is well known & has been for some time that that is MV’s modus operandi but to many it is distasteful regardless of who is doing it.

I agree with you there, he's known for his all or nothing style. Obviously everyone rages and raves about this last race but if we look back at the season the same thing happened at many tracks - Monza (not just the crash but same move at Turn 4), Imola, Sao Paulo, Jeddah. 

He will definitely put his car in places other drivers wouldn't dare to go. But that is what gave him his F1 seat in his first place. From karting days he's been leagues above his peers and it shows still. He is willing to "go for a gap that exists" to quote a famous late racing driver. Still, being one of very few drivers on the grid that doesn't have to worry about keeping a seat is definitely big help.

But in my opinion the lack of penalty for Lewis was very unfair compared to Max's penalties given for the same in Jeddah. I'm not blaming the drivers, it's the stewards that struggle to reign it in with dangerous driving. 

Their inconsistency and reluctance to punish such race moves has created this situation. Both Lewis and Max will push the envelope of what's acceptable if it wins races. You can't blame Max for divebombing on Lewis if he knows that it will gain him track positions with no consequences, he kept his car on track and made no contact - regardless of what Lewis had to do to avoid him that position was his.

 

Hate the sin, love the sinner.

[-Error-]

33 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Easy solution to above problem. Replace the run off area with a graveltrap or just grass. Nobody will drive onto it, drivers take the room they are given.

MotoGP called, they want their limbs back.

Punish off track excursions and track limit infringements, track limits are usually an issue where we didn't have situations such as the aforementioned.

What happened during the inaugural race of the season? Max had to give his position back due to going off track whilst overtaking Lewis, even though Lewis has been found off track at that exact point 29 times in the race.  29 times! And now we're getting upset because Lewis lost the last race because his team chose not to pit him for fresh tyres!

29 Times! Where were the stewards?

[-Error-]

There is a solid white line at the outside and inside edge of every part of every FIA circuit. Every time a driver is found in control of his vehicle and with all four wheels across that line is a penalty.

They have the technology, use it to make racing fair. Give them two strikes. But leave no grey area. Note every single place and infringement. Then punish those who force you completely off track.

Why is this so hard?

[dutchie01]

42 minutes ago, -Error- said:

 

He will definitely put his car in places other drivers wouldn't dare to go. But that is what gave him his F1 seat in his first place. From karting days he's been leagues above his peers and it shows still. He is willing to "go for a gap that exists" to quote a famous late racing driver. 

A move like this needs exceptional car control and brake feel. Most drivers cannot execute this without locking up or totally missing the corner and making a big mess of it. Max can do this time and again. Lewis thesame but forget about Bottas, todays Vettel and most others. 

[ColinBarber]

3 hours ago, Shahpor said:

At this point you can see that Lewis hasn't made the corner, which is fair enough:

He hasn't made the corner because he had to take avoiding action. Max didn't leave room. Lewis was driving the racing line and would have had no issues making the corner without interference from Max.

Lewis didn't really gain an advantage, he was leading into the corning and was leading after it - the fact that the gap was bigger was mainly down to Max taking the corner at the most inefficient way, because it was a lunge designed to push the other car off the circuit.

[Shahpor]

18 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

He hasn't made the corner because he had to take avoiding action. Max didn't leave room. Lewis was driving the racing line and would have had no issues making the corner without interference from Max.

Lewis didn't really gain an advantage, he was leading into the corning and was leading after it - the fact that the gap was bigger was mainly down to Max taking the corner at the most inefficient way, because it was a lunge designed to push the other car off the circuit.

Err, I really don't mean to be rude Colin, but I believe my previous post already answered this?

The point was that, yes, he left the track to avoid hitting Max, but he then didn't make any attempt to return to the track as quickly as he could and just cut the corner instead.  We have seen plenty of examples of people needing to give places up for doing the same hence why the commentators mentioned it almost immediately.

Also, as was mentioned numerous times during the Sky F1 broadcast, how did he not gain an advantage when they were side by side going into the corner and Lewis was ahead by over 1 sec after it?

Surely if you had watched the race on Sky then you would have recalled that being said?  I didn't make the observation, I just happen to agree with it.

[ColinBarber]

Had he braked further and rejoined on the corner then Max would have been ahead, and Max would have probably been ordered to give the place back because he gained an unfair advantage by pushing a competitor off the circuit. It was also a first lap incident where more leeway is given and rejoining immediately on the corner was probably more dangerous that the route Lewis took.

Lewis having more that 1 sec lead after the incident was down to Max going in too deep and slowing down much more than you normally would - that is the price you pay for making a lunge and it not coming off.

 

If the stewards had ruled the other way I'd imagine they wouldn't have swapped back and just taken the 5 sec penalty instead as they were much faster in race trim than the RB.

[paulrnx]

Fantastic racing driver that Max clearly is, he does deliberately force other cars off track. He also absolutely refuses to be overtaken even when he has fairly lost a corner and will just drive round the corner off the track and rejoin after the corner in an unsafe manner and block the driver who had just overtaken him.

His sudden weaving at very high speed just as he was about to be overtaken was rightly stopped in his early years although it took a while for the FIA to stamp it out. I will never forget him putting Raikkonen on the grass at 190+ on the run up from Eau Rouge at Spa in his early days as an F1 driver. Had it not been for Raikkonen’s lightning reactions we would not have been celebrating his safe retirement this year.

On countless occasions this year Lewis has had to steer away from contact with Max. And at Silverstone when Lewis finally decided not to yield, Max assumed he had anyway and just turned in on him.

If we’re dissecting every incident in last Sunday’s race then Max should have had a penalty for his weaving on the straight on that last lap because this illegally prevented Lewis from retaking that position. He was even warned to stop it by his team so they certainly knew it was against the rules.

As far as I am concerned, the FIA and Liberty desperately wanted someone other than Lewis and Mercedes to win this year’s championships. The changes forced to the floor area of all cars prior to this season was in my view deliberately done to impact the low rake philosophy cars for this reason. Then, all stewarding decisions this year have been taken with a view to ensuring that Max and not Lewis won the championship.

I still find it very hard now to understand and accept how the normal safety car regulations were not followed on Sunday. Again, my view is that it was deliberately done to give Max an opportunity to pass Lewis on the last lap.

Of course Max is a brilliant driver but on Sunday he was soundly beaten by Lewis and only won because the race director decided to break the rules to give Max and Red Bull the miracle that Horner had said they needed with 10 laps or whatever it was to go. Except it wasn’t a miracle, it was a deliberate manipulation of the rules to favour Max over Lewis. This for me is very hard for me to accept, even now.

Of course, the playstation brigade will love Max’s style of driving because this is what they do every day from the comfort of their own bedrooms. 

[dutchie01]

Lewis did not loose the championship last weekend where he did nothing wrong ( other than leaving the door open 2 times with Max behind him ). He lost it in Baku.

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, paulrnx said:

On countless occasions this year Lewis has had to steer away from contact with Max. And at Silverstone when Lewis finally decided not to yield, Max assumed he had anyway and just turned in on him.

It should be noted that Lewis was found to be at fault for this accident and was given a 10 second penalty.

If we’re dissecting every incident in last Sunday’s race then Max should have had a penalty for his weaving on the straight on that last lap because this illegally prevented Lewis from retaking that position. He was even warned to stop it by his team so they certainly knew it was against the rules.

Weaving has been committed plenty of times this season by various drivers and the consequences in the first instances has always been a verbal warning by the stewards, so it wasn't illegal.

As far as I am concerned, the FIA and Liberty desperately wanted someone other than Lewis and Mercedes to win this year’s championships. The changes forced to the floor area of all cars prior to this season was in my view deliberately done to impact the low rake philosophy cars for this reason. Then, all stewarding decisions this year have been taken with a view to ensuring that Max and not Lewis won the championship.

I still find it very hard now to understand and accept how the normal safety car regulations were not followed on Sunday. Again, my view is that it was deliberately done to give Max an opportunity to pass Lewis on the last lap.

This suggests a conspiracy on behalf of the FIA in Max's favour, which I would suggest is far fetched and unwarranted.

Of course Max is a brilliant driver but on Sunday he was soundly beaten by Lewis and only won because the race director decided to break the rules to give Max and Red Bull the miracle that Horner had said they needed with 10 laps or whatever it was to go. Except it wasn’t a miracle, it was a deliberate manipulation of the rules to favour Max over Lewis. This for me is very hard for me to accept, even now.

It should be stressed that, whilst unusual, no actual rules were broken by Michael Masi as the regulations do allow for his interpretation and this was confirmed when the stewards (including Derek Warwick) ruled to reject Mercedes' appeal.

Of course, the playstation brigade will love Max’s style of driving because this is what they do every day from the comfort of their own bedrooms. 

Senna and Schumacher, two of the all time greats, had similar driving styles so it isn't without precedent.  

I know I am going to be accused of being a Max fanboy, but I do feel that the views are somewhat unbalanced so an opposing view is required to demonstrate that not everyone sees it the same way.

[paulrnx]

40 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

I know I am going to be accused of being a Max fanboy, but I do feel that the views are somewhat unbalanced so an opposing view is required to demonstrate that not everyone sees it the same way.

My hope is that having won the championship this year that Max calms his reckless driving down a little. May not happen but it is my hope.

I just want to see fair racing and a bit of respect between teams and drivers. This season has overstepped the mark on many occasions. Culminating in a preposterous single lap shootout heavily geared in Max’s favour.

[-Error-]

Paul I agree with your opinion of Max's driving style. I want to see the same hunger but let's keep it within the track boundary, his desperate pushes were at times over the top but like I said it's the stewards that fail the sport by not recognising that enough is enough. He, just like many other drivers will push until they are told no more.

What I do disagree with is claiming that FIA has manipulated the championship to crown a different driver. Especially if you want to speculate on "breaking" the rules. They have shown lack of bias and competency during the entire season when penalising one way or another.

What is your take on the track limits infringements I mentioned earlier that were committed by Lewis? Did the FIA not show bias towards Lewis in that retrospect by simply ignoring the advantage he gained and only issuing him with a warning whilst punishing Max?

Let's not focus on one race alone because nobody has ever won a championship over one weekend. Fans want racing, sponsors want racing, drivers want racing. It's what we had and for once we've seen explosion in interest over F1, because it's been exciting for once.

I will tune in to watch Max, Ricciardo or Fernando perform risky moves day in day out and will always prefer that over the snoozefest that Mercedes' domination has given us.

It's not the drivers job to keep it civil, the reward is too high for them not to take risks. The onus is on the stewards who are employed to keep it safe and fair. More safe than fair may I add.

 

"Culminating in a preposterous single lap shootout heavily geared in Max’s favour."
I doubt that stewards gave it more than two seconds of thought that only one of those drivers have pitted for fresh tyres and which one it was. They had their hands full trying to organise a mess without working out everyone's strategies.

[Barry14UK]

21 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Without trying to get into an Internet slanging match, what I am referring to is the following:

At this point you can see that Lewis hasn't made the corner, which is fair enough:

However, what he should have done was steer left to try and still make the apex.  Instead, he did this:

And gained an advantage.

It is better described here where the last picture shows him steering right instead of left.  You can also see on this site that the majority polled voted that the stewards should have penalised him for it.

As for Max's driving style, it is fair enough that not everyone agrees with it, and I do admit that it is definitely 'robust' at times, but it isn't against any rules and has been done before with success including from Lewis himself:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/jun/18/lewis-hamilton-formula-one-controversy

Don't agree with your assessment of this incident and I am sure that if you did a poll most people would likely disagree too.  You need a video showing approach of both cars to the bend and the point after Lewis had had left the track.  A static picture does nor adequately convey cause and effect.  It was not surprising that in order to risk a coming together, (something more vital to Lewis than Max) Lewis has to turn right more sharply or hope by braking very heavily he would avoid Max and also give track position to Max.  The sensible thing therefore was to do what Lewis did. 

You link to an article about that majors  on the driving  of Lewis Many years ago but this is not relevant to the disputed current race although it does show Lewis was robust in some earlier races.  But this was the disputed race and should be judged according to what happened then, not what had happened in any previous races.  Max should not be given more tolerance because he is less experienced, has not previously been champion, is young and good looking and Red Bull deserved something missing out on the constructors prize or for any other spurious reason.

However, as so many people have said, the result was over influenced by the Race Director changing his mind and then making a decision that with fewer cars allowed by the Safety Car, thereby enabling Max to make up ground more easily on his newer rubber and pass Lewis.

[dutchie01]

On 12/15/2021 at 7:14 PM, Barry14UK said:

Don't agree with your assessment of this incident and I am sure that if you did a poll most people would likely disagree too.  You need a video showing approach of both cars to the bend and the point after Lewis had had left the track.  A static picture does nor adequately convey cause and effect.  It was not surprising that in order to risk a coming together, (something more vital to Lewis than Max) Lewis has to turn right more sharply or hope by braking very heavily he would avoid Max and also give track position to Max.  The sensible thing therefore was to do what Lewis did. 

 

Bottomline is that to my big surprise, and i am still baffled about it, that Lewis did not defend the corner, did not position his car blocking max going for the inside. He left the door wide open knowing Max will go for every gap always. Same in the final lap, he did not defend the corner inviting Max right in. Why??

[VFR]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Bottomline is that to my big surprise, and i am still baffled about it, that Lewis did not defend the corner, did not position his car blocking max going for the inside. He left the door wide open knowing Max will go for every gap always. Same in the final lap, he did not defend the corner inviting Max right in. Why??

Simple because he is not a touring car / banger racing driver !

Do that at Goodwood and you will never be invited again.