Formula one

[First_Lexus]

11 hours ago, Barry14UK said:

Just hope race is not marred by stoppage and safety cars or comings together.

^^ I can’t help feeling that somebody further back on the grid will enter that first corner too fast and take out either Max, or Lewis…or both! Adrenaline can cause unexpected things on a day like today…

[NemesisUK]

OMG!!!

What a race, who would be a steward....

[paulrnx]

That was an incorrect application of the rules at the end. At least that is my understanding. There is nothing that allows for selectively allowing lapped cars to overtake. It’s normally all cars or no cars. It is also not normal to allow lapped cars to overtake at the same time that the safety car ends.

Congratulations to Max but I feel like that one was engineered by the FIA in a rather underhand way.

[Barry14UK]

Reports that Mercedes considering lodging an objection due to misapplication of rule but seems most unlikely to change outcome.  Luck with Max!

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, paulrnx said:

That was an incorrect application of the rules at the end. At least that is my understanding. There is nothing that allows for selectively allowing lapped cars to overtake. It’s normally all cars or no cars. It is also not normal to allow lapped cars to overtake at the same time that the safety car ends.

Congratulations to Max but I feel like that one was engineered by the FIA in a rather underhand way.

I was in the car for the whole race (what timing!) and the Radio 5Live commentators were of the opinion - all of them - that although it was tough on Lewis, not getting the lapped cars out of the way would have been incorrect, and would have been the only time such a thing had been allowed since the rules changed (they said) in the 1990s. Even so, it was all a bit of a shambles and the radio commentators had nothing but criticism for the confused decision making.

Whatever the eventual outcome, and I’ve also heard this afternoon that Mercedes are likely to challenge the result, it was a fantastic season and such a dramatic ending was rather in keeping I thought.

Let’s just hope that the result isn’t now changed retrospectively as I think that would set an unfortunate precedent.

[westo3]

So Lewis is 10 seconds ahead and had managed to overtake all the back markers whereas Max does not have to and with a new set of soft tires is allowed to start the final lap with no time disadvantage! Hardly a fair result Lewis on his worn out tires didn’t stand a chance. Total shambles

[NemesisUK]

Perhaps a modification of the rules when under the Safety Car?
Cars to keep to the gaps between cars just before the SC comes out, so no bunching up, no loosing an X sec lead?

[First_Lexus]

11 minutes ago, westo3 said:

So Lewis is 10 seconds ahead and had managed to overtake all the back markers whereas Max does not have to and with a new set of soft tires is allowed to start the final lap with no time disadvantage! Hardly a fair result Lewis on his worn out tires didn’t stand a chance. Total shambles

I wonder if Lewis has ‘spoken to’ Nicholas Latifi yet…😆

Regardless of the shambles with the stewarding decisions at the end, if he hadn’t stacked it Lewis was home and dry! 

[First_Lexus]

3 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

Perhaps a modification of the rules when under the Safety Car?
Cars to keep to the gaps between cars just before the SC comes out, so no bunching up, no loosing an X sec lead?

The jeopardy of a safety car is part of the fun. If they go down that sort of route - and they may well after this - it will spoil one of the last vestiges of uncertainty in the sport!

Btw, I’m still smarting that I had to listen on the radio rather than watching. It was exciting listening though - well, the final ten minutes anyway! Radio still has a place, and today demonstrated how effective it can be.

[ALAW]

7 hours ago, westo3 said:

So Lewis is 10 seconds ahead and had managed to overtake all the back markers whereas Max does not have to and with a new set of soft tires is allowed to start the final lap with no time disadvantage! Hardly a fair result Lewis on his worn out tires didn’t stand a chance. Total shambles

Faultless execution of the truth

[VFR]

Lewis had it won.

Safety car came out but he still had it won with one lap to go.

Masi decided otherwise and made sure that Lewis could not win it.

 

I have said it before a very distasteful decision given to a very distasteful team.

[Mossypossy]

Sport loses out to spectacle.

All it has achieved is making the front page of every newspaper. Oh, a win then?

[Shahpor]

Verstappen won because he was in the right place at the right time.

Also, as has already been stated, not allowing car to unlap themselves would be unprecedented move, so the only unusual element here was that not all the lapped cars were allowed to do so.

However, I believe this was done because Michael Masi didn't want the championship decided behind the safety car, which would have been a shame.

Let's put it this way:  If there had been sufficient time and all the lapped runners had been allowed to overtake, would the result have changed?  Highly unlikely.  So, in reality, it was the deployment of the Safety car that screwed Lewis in the end.

In addition, people seemed to glossed over the fact that in the opinion of every one of the Sky Sport F1 pundits - and Martin Bundle in particular - Lewis gained an unfair advantage when he cut the corner on the first lap and he got away with it.  Also, there was Toto calling for no safety car despite it obvious need, which is not in the best interests of the marshals.

What I am saying is that it was a cruel way for Lewis to lose, and you can't help but feel for him, but these things do come in swings and roundabouts and Verstappen didn't do anything wrong so is a worthy champion.

Lastly, if the positions were reversed and it was Lewis that won, would the British media have made such a fuss?  No, they would have been congratulating Lewis and would have been very pleased with Masi's decision.

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Last two races have confirmed my opinion of Michael Masi. After Charlie's passing he was way too inexperienced to be put in the position of making these kinds of decisions on the spot. Not conveying the proper message (Verstappen and Lewis crash) in the correct order in Jeddah; the inability to manage the TPs and crumbling under pressure in both races, not mentioning many other situations this year. Anyone recall the fact that he couldn't even remember the driver line-up when he was arranging deals with Merc and RB for race restart at Jeddah?

We have seen a great deal of change in the recent years with the handover of ownership. Lots of attention brought to the sport through DTS and their great online presence (anyone remember what Bernie Ecclestone's F1 Youtube channel looked like?), however you can see that the "let them race", "driver of the day interviews" and so on is all a reality-tv, scripted, directed part of liberty media agenda they are trying to put on the sport. Of course they will seek any drama at any given chance. And they couldn't ask for more with the last race.

 

Do I agree with how the race went yesterday? No. 

Have all teams reacted appropriately to on track events thus giving their drivers the greatest winning chance? No.

Are any of the drivers to blame for the outcome of Abu Dabi GP? No.

 

Let's put all of the whataboutism aside, thankfully, 2021 WDC has been one hell of a rollercoaster. We have seen it all. It has been the most thrilling season in a very long time and that is a breath of fresh air as well as hope for more for the years to come.

In my opinion, Max Verstappen is the most deserving driver of that title. Yes, luck has swung his way in the last race, but he has also been found very unlucky in some others. The four times where he did not finish on the podium this year were either due to the tyre failure in Baku or being taken out by a mercedes. That is something extraordinary. The kid has not had an off-day. The car he drove was clearly the inferior of the front runners after the summer break yet he drove it to 110% to ensure he kept those points coming. 

[-Error-]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:30 PM, NemesisUK said:

Perhaps a modification of the rules when under the Safety Car?
Cars to keep to the gaps between cars just before the SC comes out, so no bunching up, no loosing an X sec lead?

That's why we have the VSC. Bringing a Safety Car is all about bunching cars up together to neutralise the track and allow the proper works to go ahead. Jeddah showed us the importance of bringing it out as we had VSC with the entire field stretched across the whole track and the marshals were unable to get on track to clear it of debris.

 

What I'd propose here is bring a rule where if SC is deployed at 90% of race length or more then red flag should be used instead with a rolling restart to ensure a fair condition for all cars. No unfair advantages for pitting for tyres or staying out and gambling on race ending under SC like we saw yesterday.

[VFR]

In touring cars the block pass so loved by MV where you throw it up the inside & hope to either lean on the outside car to make the bend or force it off is not for open wheel racing.

That is what he carried out on Hamilton on the first bend, either Hamilton braked to avoid the collision or ran off the track (as we saw) So if Hamilton gained an advantage good as it was MV who caused it the same as the last race where it actually penalised Hamilton.

That distasteful team & driver now have what they wanted but history will always view it as so just like a couple of Schumachers titles.

[-Error-]

27 minutes ago, VFR said:

...

That distasteful team & driver now have what they wanted but history will always view it as so just like a couple of Schumachers titles.

Let's not get carried away here.

Max fought fair and square for his title, a few questionable moves won't be enough to overshadow what season he has pulled off in his battle against Mercedes.

Let's rewind back ten years and see where Sir Lewis was. He has matured into the driver he is over the years but pulled many dirty moves along the way, often jeopardising races of his teammates or other opponents. With the experience he has he is able to stay within the grey area but nonetheless he was just as much of a ruthless driver even after clenching his first title. 

Silverstone '11 comes to mind. Club corner of the last lap.

[Barry14UK]

40 minutes ago, VFR said:

In touring cars the block pass so loved by MV where you throw it up the inside & hope to either lean on the outside car to make the bend or force it off is not for open wheel racing.

That is what he carried out on Hamilton on the first bend, either Hamilton braked to avoid the collision or ran off the track (as we saw) So if Hamilton gained an advantage good as it was MV who caused it the same as the last race where it actually penalised Hamilton.

That distasteful team & driver now have what they wanted but history will always view it as so just like a couple of Schumachers titles.

That's the way I saw it too, Ham squeezed off the track on the first bend.  Also bad call by stewards or race director on passing safety car farce.  I don't see result being changed, after all goals are not disallowed after game ended (though red cards may be) even when examined later like for instance the notorious 'hand of God' incident that killed off England.  Not saying Max cheated but officials by their actions handed race to him.

Next season rules must be carefully framed and followed.

 

 

[ColinBarber]

On 12/12/2021 at 4:33 PM, First_Lexus said:

The jeopardy of a safety car is part of the fun. If they go down that sort of route - and they may well after this - it will spoil one of the last vestiges of uncertainty in the sport!

It's no longer a sport after yesterday, it's an entertainment show.

I've always felt the neutralisation of the race due to a safety car is unfair on the front runners who have built up a lead, but those are the rules. Just a shame the rules weren't followed and Max was allowed to attack without any concern for defending his position as only some of the back markers were moved out of the way.

[NemesisUK]

It stopped years backed.

Let the teams developed the fasted cars. F1 should be unshackled and allowed to develop  the fasted possible 

[dutchie01]

11 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

It stopped years backed.

Let the teams developed the fasted cars. F1 should be unshackled and allowed to develop  the fasted possible 

That is what almost killed F1. The cost of participating spiraled out of control with big manufacturers throwing buckets of money into development. The top teams spend on average 500 million pounds per season. And you cant run for one season so it will be an investment of 6 to 8 years meaning 3.5 billion pounds total. No new manufacturers were interested at these prices and others left with Toyota as most spectacular failure. They tried from 2008 to 2017 did not achieve anything in spite of having the largest budget of all teams. ( only the lexus LF V10 was a spin off).  The days of mechanics with overalls and greasy hands is over. You are looking at fighter-jet technology now. As no other teams were coming in Mercedes became ultra dominant winning everything. This LED to a fall in spectators as from 2008 to 2017 interest in the sport halved. F1 was dying. From next year there will be a budget cap of 150 million per season to make it more attractive for manufacturers to step in and likely VAG will come on board. Worldwide interest went up the moment Max arrived and in his wake the young starts Leclerc, Norris,Russel, Yuki, Sainz. Worldwide interest is now bigger than 2008 and the last 2 races the worldwide views went through the roof setting an all time record. With this new high period of interest a new type of fan came along, the football type of spectator that does not really know much about the sport but likes the atmosphere, spectacle. Also the press coverage changed from the old fashioned factual with a drivers interview to football like front page shouting headlines where facts are merely a choice to be used or not.  I do hope that next year will bring Ferrari and Mclaren to the top as well so we can watch a scrap between 4 drivers instead of 2.     

[-Error-]

As @dutchie01 rightly pointed out, letting big spenders into the sport is what kills the competition.

Look at WRC, since their budget cap they have seen a great levelling out in the field and allowed more drivers to get their share of the winning pie.

Introduce spending caps to allow drivers and tactics to be the deciding factor of race classifications, that's what brings fans to the tracks and money into the sport. When it comes to drama around the sport, I stay off social media mon-fri on race week and have my own sources of information that completely skip the bias and sensationalising done by most official accounts.

 

Also, as unsafe as it was, I'd like to see refuelling back to bring another element of strategy.

[paulrnx]

Will have to see how F1 goes in the next few years. If the price we have to pay, in order to keep all of new fans watching, is to artificially orchestrate close finishes and manipulate the end result then it will all be done without me. I’m cool about this though because I tune in to watch races, I don’t tune into watch entertainment shows. I also don’t tune in to watch playstation driving. Just have to see how it all moves on from here.

[stepheneric]

Going off on a slightly different tangent..... What happens in 2030? Does F1 go all electric? or off the grid (pun intended!) and go down the powered by  Hydrogen engines?

[dutchie01]

12 minutes ago, paulrnx said:

Will have to see how F1 goes in the next few years. If the price we have to pay, in order to keep all of new fans watching, is to artificially orchestrate close finishes and manipulate the end result then it will all be done without me. I’m cool about this though because I tune in to watch races, I don’t tune into watch entertainment shows. I also don’t tune in to watch playstation driving. Just have to see how it all moves on from here.

TV Coverage has been a deciding factor even in the Ecclestone period. Bernie asked Tilke for new tracks in new countries with 1st and 2nd gear corners so a company logo would be framed by the camera for exactly XYZ seconds. This is how they got new sponsors. It was all about money and still is. the old school racetracks are for the old school fans only ( me included). the new generation does not give one toss and probably prefers Saudi Arabia above Belgium. So many people that did visit last weekends race were filming themselves watching the action !?! Paul try visiting a historic GP event if possible, it is how it was. Gentlemen-like and a civilized international crowd quietly discussing engines, over steer and that other car that always was faster in the 78 GP come on what was the name....