Fuel panic!

Bluemarlin · August 4, 2022

8 hours ago, LenT said:

Mrs T was of the same mind, Bill. Until she discovered that being uncontactable when mobile and therefore unaware that well-laid plans had had to be changed, was even more inconvenient!

I certainly recall times driving out to meetings which were cancelled before I arrived. So a car phone saved me quite a few wasted hours. Personally I have no problem with being called while I’m out.

I can always not answer it. 😊

In all seriousness you're right Len, the benefits outweigh the disruption. I tend to leave mine on, and then choose whether to answer or not too.

That causes its own problems though, as I now get "you're phone was on, why didn't you answer?". Instead of just a message asking me to call back. 🙂

Can't win I guess.

toffee_pie · August 4, 2022

On 8/3/2022 at 4:17 PM, Bluemarlin said:

It depends what you call evidence Eric.

There's "evidence" for ghosts, miracles, alien abductions, and bigfoot. None of it means these things are true. Evidence on its own is meaningless, until it's examined and proven to show that it confirms the claims being made from its use.

In other words, none of what you say is necessarily untrue, but then nor is it true either, until it can be proven. Until then it's simply guessing and leaping to conclusions.

Going back to the Covid documedntary on the BBC, question. Do you lot who do all the 'likes' think the director of the BBC would swear under oath about ALL the covid data they were presenting to the people of UK? going go for the jugular dive right in to the point.

My answer is obviously a no and I would bet my house on it - so that means they basically lied about large chunks of what they were telling the world, its why they block any comments that dont fit the 'rules' - rules that need to meet a certain standard.

You dont think they will tell you things they dont want you to know do you? so the 'evidence' wont be got from the BBC, nor the CNN, MSN etc which fall into the same category of mainstream media. Maybe people get upset or annoyed when someone like me gets nosey and sticks my head into these things but as an Engineer I am always probing and asking questions, about everything.

You can’t say anything nowadays or you are a conspiracy nutcase - that’s fine by me everyone is entitled to an opinion, in this world of (no) free speech.

Covid is a prime example say anything that goes against the mandate and you are some naughty boy, how dare you! please roll up your sleeve like a good boy, this 5th booster will work. promise. xXx - that’s basically the attitude some folks have without even asking any questions - feckless is the word

EVs are pretty much more of the same, listen to the Government, listen to the experts - no tail pipe emissions what are you talking about these are amazing for the environment. So wrong but you can’t say anything and they are forced upon people because the great western economies of the world said so.

However some folks just cannot be convinced and there is no point saying otherwise

toffee_pie · August 4, 2022

On 8/3/2022 at 4:07 PM, Bluemarlin said:

Because of course it's a piece of cake to get through to someone like you 😉

I'm aware of the relatively smalll contribution automobiles make to global pollution, but believe that the benefits of EV's go beyond environmental concerns. Not least being that they're not tied to a single source of fuel. I don't watch the BBC and my views aren't environmentally based.

The majority of people don't fix their cars, as most don't want to. Most barely even check oil, tyres and coolant levels. You'll still be able to fix things like brakes, lights etc, but won't be able to change oil, or fix things like starter motors or alternators, because there won't be any to break. Beyond that, the number of people who tear engines apart is even smaller and, with the increasing reliance on sensors and ECUs, even ICE cars are getting harder and harder to DIY.

Nor do I buy the affordability argument, at least not in the long term, when ubiquity and economies of scale kick in. I remember in the early 1990's the finance director of a major multinational told me that, due to the high cost, he could never see a time in the company's future that they'd use mobile phones. Now even homeless people have them.

I will concede that the timescales may be too short, and even that governments have been disingenuous in pushing the envoronmental angle, simply because it's an easier sell, as it's more in line with public sentiment. That said, it's my belief that EV's are the logical evolutionary next step in automobile manufacture, with the ability to provide faster, cleaner, more reliable, and more fuel efficient cars.

Of course that's just a personal opinion, coming from a generation that believed the oil companies and car manufacturers historically suppresesed the development of electric cars, and kept us shackled to old style combustion engines, when newer technology was available and just needed investment.

So, to answer your original question. I don't know if it will make sense for us all to be driving EV's in 2030. Luckily most of us won't have to though. I do think though that it will likely make sense by 2050, if not sooner. That has nothing to do with what I'm told, and is just my personal opinion.

Are you talking to the wall here, I feel for a moment you might be - people do not fix cars - -really. Thats such a pathetic a comment I really dont know where to start but I think the hundreds of millions of auto enthusiast arond the world would disagree - I guess this is a conspiracy also.

Your comments on EVs are debatable too

Faster - to 60mph? yes, thats the only way they are faster as in ever other real world benchamark they would trail any decent combustion car - sure you can point me towards EVs that cost more than an average house but lets stick to the real world for now - my ageing Subaru would leave a 70k Tesla for dust on a 5 hour journey as I know it wont even be able to finish the trip

Cleaner - no tail pipe emissions, ok thats what the BBC and experts tell you - the manufacturing impact says otherwise - and they dont pull these things from trees do they? Combustion engine cars only account for 10 percent or so of global greenhgouse gases anyway and you should hope a single EV doesnt go on fire as that will be very bad for the environment, but good for the fire engines - I think 30 or so were needed to put out a Tesla fire a few years ago

Reliable - if they are as reliable as my almost 140k 3 litre Subaru or 300k mile Lexus LS models come back to me, but I know they wont as the Battery will have long gone past its usable capacity and if any major parts to be repaired you will need to pay whatever it is the manufacturer will charge you as you wont get one from google - thats why they are a win win for Governments and Auto manufacturers (and Banks but I alreayd mentioned that)

Fuel Efficent - this is up for debate also, if you are charging up these with fossile fuels which most will be it depends on what you mean by efficient, with electric costs going the way they are and fast charging costs sky rocketing also not to mention if you drive a EV as fast as I drive you will be charging it up everyday, you could argue your costs would be no worse than a fuel efficent modern petrol car over a year, which would go further on a tank of fuel than a EV would on electric, and you can sit back in a nice cold AC cabin without worrying where a charge point is and your insurance premium will be less.

toffee_pie · August 4, 2022

On 8/3/2022 at 10:29 AM, dutchie01 said:

2035 is set as goal to ban combustion engines from the showrooms, so you cannot buy new cars from that moment. Some countries have pulled that forward to 2030. Its now 2022 and with my age it means i can drive a gas guzzling polluting V8 or stinking old 4 cylinder diesel until my last moment, no problem ! Will i? No as i like driving an electric vehicle, the silence, torque, lack of vibrations not needing to go to a petrol station, no smell.

Btw Eric i have not heard you talk about satanic pedophile rings?

What are you talking about - you would inject a booster into your eyes if the government in your 'non UK' area said so.

I like driving large cc petrol cars as they are refined, reliable, fast and usually have lots of toys and nice AC you can sit back and relax in and not worrying about charging the stupid things up, you can also drive faster for far longer over a EV. You can keep your 4 seconds of 'torque' at the traffic lights, if that makes you happy and 'Vibration' is not really an issue either on a 6 or 8 cylinder car unless you have something else in mind *cough

Bluemarlin · August 5, 2022

3 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Going back to the Covid documedntary on the BBC, question. Do you lot who do all the 'likes' think the director of the BBC would swear under oath about ALL the covid data they were presenting to the people of UK? going go for the jugular dive right in to the point.

My answer is obviously a no and I would bet my house on it - so that means they basically lied about large chunks of what they were telling the world, its why they block any comments that dont fit the 'rules' - rules that need to meet a certain standard.

You dont think they will tell you things they dont want you to know do you? so the 'evidence' wont be got from the BBC, nor the CNN, MSN etc which fall into the same category of mainstream media. Maybe people get upset or annoyed when someone like me gets nosey and sticks my head into these things but as an Engineer I am always probing and asking questions, about everything.

You can’t say anything nowadays or you are a conspiracy nutcase - that’s fine by me everyone is entitled to an opinion, in this world of (no) free speech.

Covid is a prime example say anything that goes against the mandate and you are some naughty boy, how dare you! please roll up your sleeve like a good boy, this 5th booster will work. promise. xXx - that’s basically the attitude some folks have without even asking any questions - feckless is the word

EVs are pretty much more of the same, listen to the Government, listen to the experts - no tail pipe emissions what are you talking about these are amazing for the environment. So wrong but you can’t say anything and they are forced upon people because the great western economies of the world said so.

However some folks just cannot be convinced and there is no point saying otherwise

It depends how you phrase the question Eric.

If you asked "Would you swear under oath that all the information you provided about Covid was true/accurate?" Then I agree with you, that the answer would probably be no.

However, if you asked "Did you believe you provided accurate/honest data, based on the information you were given at the time?" Then I would think the answer would be yes.

There is a difference between getting something wrong and lying. Evidence of the former is not proof of the latter.

As for your blanket distrust of the mainstream or, more accurately described, regulated media, then what about the anti vaccine, climate sceptic, anti science, unregulated media? The darling of these conspiracy theorists, Alex Jones, has just been found guilty of spreading false conspiracy theories. This is a guy who, at his peak, made around $800k a day from his conspiracy peddling. Do you think him, and others like him, are evangelical truth seekers, or are they perhaps driven to make money by generating traffic from articles which deliberately ignore context, retrofit narrratives with the benefit of hindsight, misrepresent data, and twist interpretations, in order to tell people what they want to hear?

Eric, for the last hundred years, the great western economies of the world, along with with motor manufacturers and oil companies, told us that fossil fuel driven combustion engines were the best and only game in town, despite electric vehicles existing (an interesting aside, which I didn't know until today, was that the first ever Porsche was electric). Are the people who believed the governments and corporate interests about combustion engines gullible sheep too? Or have governments and big business only become dishonest since they started promoting electric cars?

If you feel that people who largely believe governments, the mainstream media, and scientific consensus are indoctrinated sheep then, by logical extension, so are those who believe unregulated, non peer reviewed, conspiracy theorists. The only difference is who they trust most, and their source of reference material.

Bluemarlin · August 5, 2022

2 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Are you talking to the wall here, I feel for a moment you might be - people do not fix cars - -really. Thats such a pathetic a comment I really dont know where to start but I think the hundreds of millions of auto enthusiast arond the world would disagree - I guess this is a conspiracy also.

Your comments on EVs are debatable too

Faster - to 60mph? yes, thats the only way they are faster as in ever other real world benchamark they would trail any decent combustion car - sure you can point me towards EVs that cost more than an average house but lets stick to the real world for now - my ageing Subaru would leave a 70k Tesla for dust on a 5 hour journey as I know it wont even be able to finish the trip

Cleaner - no tail pipe emissions, ok thats what the BBC and experts tell you - the manufacturing impact says otherwise - and they dont pull these things from trees do they? Combustion engine cars only account for 10 percent or so of global greenhgouse gases anyway and you should hope a single EV doesnt go on fire as that will be very bad for the environment, but good for the fire engines - I think 30 or so were needed to put out a Tesla fire a few years ago

Reliable - if they are as reliable as my almost 140k 3 litre Subaru or 300k mile Lexus LS models come back to me, but I know they wont as the battery will have long gone past its usable capacity and if any major parts to be repaired you will need to pay whatever it is the manufacturer will charge you as you wont get one from google - thats why they are a win win for Governments and Auto manufacturers (and Banks but I alreayd mentioned that)

Fuel Efficent - this is up for debate also, if you are charging up these with fossile fuels which most will be it depends on what you mean by efficient, with electric costs going the way they are and fast charging costs sky rocketing also not to mention if you drive a EV as fast as I drive you will be charging it up everyday, you could argue your costs would be no worse than a fuel efficent modern petrol car over a year, which would go further on a tank of fuel than a EV would on electric, and you can sit back in a nice cold AC cabin without worrying where a charge point is and your insurance premium will be less.

Most people don't fix cars, at least not to the extent that EV's will make much difference. Yes, hundreds of millions may change the oil, a wiper blade, fill the tyres or washer bottle. But hundreds of millions aren't stripping engines and rebuilding them. Sure, less people will probably work on EV's, mostly because they wont have to, because the mechanical parts of a combustion engine that fail won't exist.

Your other points are largely a distraction, as they assume that the current technology is mature, and won't evolve beyond where it is today, which is patently untrue.

Take speed and journey length, are you saying that things won't improve over over the next 10, 20, 30 years. What about when battery/fuel technology brings about cars with a 1000 mile range? 500 miles is almost there now, so who knows what the future will bring.

Sure, there are many combustion engine cars that will outperform EV's of today by most known metrics, but 19th century technolgy has much less of a chance to provide continual improvements in range, speed and reliability than 21st century EV tech.

As I said before, I'm not that concerned or convinced by the environmental arguments. That said, manufacturing vs tailpipe emissions is relevant. Manufacturing, although not clean, can be carried out in areas of least impact, as opposed to tailpipes which are spewing fumes into densely populated cities. You can't always fix the macro problem, but you can mitigate the micro one.

Fuel is another issue you're seeing in a narrow way. Sure, generating electricity with fossil fuels is less than ideal. However, wind, nuclear, solar, etc are all alternatives that may one day be viable. Combustion engine cars have no alternative, and so are wedded to fossil fuels, every bit as much as you are to your ageing Subaru.

The drive towards electric cars is therefore not about saying that they're better than ICE cars today, and is instead about recognising that EV's have the greater potential to provide better, faster, cleaner, more reliable, more efficient and more fuel flexible vehicles in the future.

In the meantime, no one is going to force you to give up your combustion engined car any day soon, and they will likely still be on the roads after you and I are gone.

toffee_pie · August 5, 2022

I have seen many reports of people who get Electric cars to reduce their contribution to greenhouse gases, whatever that means but the folks seem to be happy with the EV they have and it's savings over an combustion engine. But I'm struggling here somewhat as they don't seem to be including the money they spend each month to lease out that EV into the saving, school boy error that.

Like the chap who was renting out a flat and had a 50k BMW to reduce his 'emissions'.

With inflation soaring these chaps will only end up in the gutter If they keep listening to experts and would be better off ignoring them.

8 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

It depends how you phrase the question Eric.

If you asked "Would you swear under oath that all the information you provided about Covid was true/accurate?" Then I agree with you, that the answer would probably be no.

However, if you asked "Did you believe you provided accurate/honest data, based on the information you were given at the time?" Then I would think the answer would be yes.

That wasn't what I asked however. If you go back and read my question again, it's quite simple with two possible answers. Surely a smart man like you can do that

Malc · August 5, 2022

gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen ... can we rework our future thoughts to the heading of the Forum Post please

FUEL PANIC

the above circular arguments are boringly tiresome to most readers methinks ...... yawn :whistling:

please just, between yourselves, agree to differ !

Malc

First_Lexus · August 5, 2022

BP in Calcot, near Reading, continues to be 1p per litre cheaper than the nearby Sainsbury.

£1.75.9 for BP unleaded this morning vs £1.76.9 for Sainsbury less than a mile down the road.

Malc · August 5, 2022

Asda Rainham Kent yesterday E10 173.7p .. as i was driving past

Malc

Moleman · August 5, 2022

44 minutes ago, Malc said:

Asda Rainham Kent yesterday E10 173.7p .. as i was driving past

Malc

Local Asda and Tesco - E10 - 169.7

J Henderson · August 5, 2022

Just filled my car with Momentum 99 @ 179.9. E10 was 172.9

Still a good 5p dearer than it costs in the Scottish Borders.

dutchie01 · August 5, 2022

Just so you can all have a great weekend. 1 litre of 95 in VENEZUELA will set you back exactly 0.02 euro. That is 2 eurocents.

i have already ordered my 24 litre chieftain to go shopping!

Malc · August 5, 2022

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

i have already ordered my 24 litre chieftain to go shopping!

I'm thinking the Venezuelan societal issues right now may require you to drive around in some armour plated protection too :unsure:

Malc

flotsam · August 7, 2022

Prices are falling, meaning everyone's buying less petrol.

I'll wait till they start to rise, in other words, when prices have bottomed, before filling up to the brim.

Malc · August 7, 2022

15 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Prices are falling, meaning everyone's buying less petrol.

I'll wait till they start to rise, in other words, when prices have bottomed, before filling up to the brim.

an old adage for stock market investing too .............. no one gets that right apart from maybe Warren Buffet ..... read his sitting on a cash pile of US$106 bn right now ..... longevity has its rewards ..... he's 96 maybe and was made, by his daughter, to change his car a coule of years back. so he bought himself another olden ... a canny saver too :wink3:

Malc

flotsam · August 7, 2022

5 minutes ago, Malc said:

an old adage for stock market investing too .............. no one gets that right apart from maybe Warren Buffet ..... read his sitting on a cash pile of US$106 bn right now ..... longevity has its rewards ..... he's 96 maybe and was made, by his daughter, to change his car a coule of years back. so he bought himself another olden ... a canny saver too

Malc

Buffett has just lost about $50bn. I beat him hands down year after year, 'cos I'm not that much of a sucker.

flotsam · August 7, 2022

On 8/3/2022 at 11:15 AM, Malc said:

China holds more US$ than even the USA outside of ..... the USA, let alone other holders of the greenbacks ..

the other " western " currencies are just " nice to know "

nah.......... the banks won't be able to rip-off holidaymakers and the like with excessive exchange rate profits .... c'mon, it's a huge source of income for someone

Malc

I'm not sure China holds that much. As for the U.S. why would she want to hold dollars, when she can print as many as she wants?

Malc · August 7, 2022

3 minutes ago, flotsam said:

Buffett has just lost about $50bn.

$49.6bn I believe BUT that's tempered against his profits too which about balanced that out I'm reading ......... he has a clever accountant maybe . guess it's all to do with the timing and tax losses to the Fed ......... and his $106bn is real real cash ...... he maybe hides it under his mattress .......... :yahoo:

AND he's told the world he's anti Crypto as it's all just a wisp of the imagination and doesn't have any asset realisable value . whereas EVERYTHING he invests in, if it goes bust, will always have a break-up asset value for him to turn into, well, maybe another pile of cash :wink3:

he's a Clever old Sage of Omaha eh !

6 minutes ago, flotsam said:

I'm not sure China holds that much. As for the U.S. why would she want to hold dollars, when she can print as many as she wants?

I'm only reading ( in the past tho ) that China holds that much more than the US holds OUTSIDE of the US . and yes, it can and does print all it needs for own consumption I guess :whistling:

" than the USA holds OUTSIDE of the USA " ............... I wonder if this refers to the USA citzens and Corps holdings of dollars outside of the home country though ???

It's all a little beyond me . the closest I get to USA stuff these days is Starbucks

Malc

First_Lexus · August 7, 2022

4 hours ago, flotsam said:

Prices are falling

Certainly are. Sainsbury is now at £1.71.9 in Reading, down 5p for unleaded since Friday.

BP remains at £1.75.9 but was closed when I drove past earlier as they are refurbishing the shop.

Las Palmas · August 7, 2022

On 8/5/2022 at 10:15 AM, Malc said:

gentlemen gentlemen gentlemen ... can we rework our future thoughts to the heading of the Forum Post please

FUEL PANIC

the above circular arguments are boringly tiresome to most readers methinks ...... yawn

please just, between yourselves, agree to differ !

Malc

Even better:

Private communication is available here in the forum.

Fuel panic is about what?

Las Palmas · August 7, 2022

5 hours ago, flotsam said:

Prices are falling, meaning everyone's buying less petrol.

So far - not here.

toffee_pie · August 7, 2022

£1.869/L today, filled up what was left in the tank for £82.87 - thats Shell E5

A bit more tolerable

toffee_pie · August 7, 2022

5 hours ago, flotsam said:

Buffett has just lost about $50bn. I beat him hands down year after year, 'cos I'm not that much of a sucker.

Everyone with stocks and shares has lost over the last few years - unless you by magic have shares in some pharma or energy company. No point looking at pension pots

Malc · August 7, 2022

2 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Everyone with stocks and shares has lost over the last few years - unless you by magic have shares in some pharma or energy company. No point looking at pension pots

I've just taken a totally passive stance with my Pot and it's with Aviva with Black Rock ........ mainly simple general low risk FTSE stuff and with tiny tiny annual drawdown ( say 1.25 % ) my Pot has increased some 40% over these past 7 years ... the power of a brilliant investor and mentor Black Rock methinks ...... summat like US$ 13 ? trillion under their astute and professional management ............. BUT I doubt they do as well as Warren tho' :wink3:

Malc