Fuel panic!

Las Palmas · July 21, 2022

2 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

It’s a strange world, when just because I need to overtake sometimes I must be a “fast driver”. 🤣

Why praise excessive acceleration of EV and complain about noise when a CVT is pressed to accelerate likewise if you are not a fast driver liking to usually go fast?

Hybrids (CVT) are for a different way of driving. They fit me now, when no longer wanting to be first to the next red light. Just want to come comfortable from one place to another.

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

^^ I’ll believe it when I see it!

I filled the car the other day cheap 1.64€/L. Yesterday evening saw price 1.76€/L.

It is a roller-coaster.

Why sell cheap is customers are willing to / able to pay more?

DBIZO · July 21, 2022

10 minutes ago, Las Palmas said:

Why praise excessive acceleration of EV

Saving the planet, one red light at a time.

First_Lexus · July 21, 2022

20 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

I am not sure the winter range should drop quite as much as that, most would probably loose around 20% range in winter but obviously very dependent on driving style, it appears the salesman was being very conservative to cover his butt, good for him.

Looking at the enclosed from What Car? the 18-20% range drop in Winter does seem consistent.

If I’ve read it correctly, the reason Winter use is so problematic in my situation is that 95% of the journey is motorway, with just 4-5 miles at each end on local roads. I guess that explains why the sales staff are so nervous - and rightly cautious!

https://www.whatcar.com/news/range-test-how-far-can-electric-cars-go-in-winter/n24274

Bluemarlin · July 21, 2022

17 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

Sorry, my tin foil hat is blocking the keyboard, hang on

Not sure if you're up to date on the Ivermectin issue, but it's been pretty much debunked.

With the so called successsful results in India, it transpired that the largest area that reported no Covid deaths over a 3 month period, also reported no deaths from any other cause over the same period. So, either Ivermectin saves people from hearts attacks, road accidents, cancer, murders and all forms of death, or the results were false. I'm hoping the former, but not holding my breath.

A number of other seemingly successful trials have been subsequently withdrawn, either due to flawed sampling, small test groups, or fraudulent claims.

Unsurprisingly, two of the larger evangelists for Ivermectin turned out to be highly paid consultants for companies who make...wait for it...Ivermectin.

Seems you can't always trust the unregulated and noncomformist media either. Who'd have thought it.

I guess you're right though. It is good to ask questions before taking things as gospel 😉

Boxbrownie · July 21, 2022

2 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Why praise excessive acceleration of EV and complain about noise when a CVT is pressed to accelerate likewise if you are not a fast driver liking to usually go fast?

There you go again assuming I like to “go fast” and why state “excessive” acceleration? Just because pulling out of a junction or joining a Motorway from a slip road may require more than your seemingly sloth like driving technique doesn’t make it wrong to use the power available and if it can be utilised without the associated din of a CVT transmission and engine all the better a vehicle for it.

I think we should agree to disagree 😉

Bluemarlin · July 21, 2022

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

There you go again assuming I like to “go fast” and why state “excessive” acceleration? Just because pulling out of a junction or joining a Motorway from a slip road may require more than your seemingly sloth like driving technique doesn’t make it wrong to use the power available and if it can be utilised without the associated din of a CVT transmission and engine all the better a vehicle for it.

I think we should agree to disagree 😉

I agree, and think there's nothing wrong with using the power available, and also like to join motorways and overtake as quickly as possible.

That said, whilst silence might be nice, I haven't noticed my eCVT to be particularly noisy. Certainly no more so than an ICE car accelerating briskly.

I imagine though that you'd quickly get used to the quiet of an EV and thus become more aware of any noise in other cars.

Boxbrownie · July 21, 2022

57 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

I agree, and think there's nothing wrong with using the power available, and also like to join motorways and overtake as quickly as possible.

That said, whilst silence might be nice, I haven't noticed my eCVT to be particularly noisy. Certainly no more so than an ICE car accelerating briskly.

I imagine though that you'd quickly get used to the quiet of an EV and thus become more aware of any noise in other cars.

I spent my whole career driving and testing vehicle prototypes and competitor vehicles often while simultaneously filming what was going on under the hood, chassis and suspension, yes I was that good 🤣 and TBH I have never liked or understood why CVT ( even when we were developing them) could not have a stepped false gear step programmed in, of course difficult on the early pure mechanical type but later system could have had a better implementation. Just one of my pet hates and a system which spoils otherwise extremely good vehicles…….in my opinion.

As long as we are still allowed those? 😉

Bluemarlin · July 21, 2022

Pardon my ignorance, but what would be the purpose of a stepped false gear?

wharfhouse · July 21, 2022

58 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what would be the purpose of a stepped false gear?

To make it feel / sound like a traditional gearbox - however that would be less efficient as the cvt would then be working in steps rather than keeping the engine at peak efficiency all the time. The e-cvt in Lexus has a set of 6 steps to simulate 6 gears (use the paddles or gear lever in S) - however in pure performance it's actually slower to use these than just hold the accelerator to the floor and let the e-cvt allow the engine to work at maximum. This was all tested in F1 some years back when the cvt was shown to be faster than a traditional gearbox but they were immediately banned - many believe because there was no traditional gear change sounds which would alienate fans...

Boxbrownie · July 22, 2022

10 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what would be the purpose of a stepped false gear?

As above, the main purpose is to eliminate the continuous high speed revs which does in fact alienate a lot of customers in market research.

I believe on of the Japanese manufactures has just released a passenger vehicle with such a CVT transmission (not quite sure who it is as been out of the industry since retiring), the efficiency penalty is less than imagined as the transmission uses the available torque rather than outright maximum power.

First_Lexus · July 22, 2022

Got to love the way this thread has meandered through fuel prices, various conspiracy theories, COVID, electric vehicles vs fossil fuelled vehicles and now the eCVT! Surely the only thing left is whether the 300h power train has enough power or not…😆

On the eCVT subject, I’m guessing that - a bit like with the 300h power train discussions - driving ‘enthusiasts’ (best description I can think of) don’t like them but those who just want comfortable transport don’t really notice?

Back on topic, no sign of petrol prices falling here yet. Still £1.85 yesterday.

Malc · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

Back on topic,

the recent petrol companies, BP Shell Amoco and all increase in their own profit margin spread imposed between refinery and onward wholesale -sale ( is that it ? ) of 24 pence relates to an equivalent 36p minimum at the retail pumps price ........... with the Govt Petroleum Rev Tax included

So, thank you BP et al for imposing an automatic 36p at the pump price rise that won't disappear anytime soon ..... whatever collapse in the Brent Crude and other prices we might see

Malc

DBIZO · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

Got to love the way this thread has meandered through fuel prices, various conspiracy theories, COVID, electric vehicles vs fossil fuelled vehicles and now the eCVT! Surely the only thing left is whether the 300h power train has enough power or not…😆

On the eCVT subject, I’m guessing that - a bit like with the 300h power train discussions - driving ‘enthusiasts’ (best description I can think of) don’t like them but those who just want comfortable transport don’t really notice?

Back on topic, no sign of petrol prices falling here yet. Still £1.85 yesterday.

Wonderfully pointless debate, because it's up to what you expect. It is clear that the IS300h is not a 'driver's car', whatever that's supposed to mean, and because of that, not a car press' car, and as a result, has always been misunderstood, much like the GS hybrids. There is no drama, and there is a bit a 'fly by wire' feel to it. But the car is outstanding in build, road stability, looks, smoothness of power delivery and economy. If you want noise and neck breaking pull, shift manually, or intimidate traffic ahead of you (the latter alone is a significant portion of the market), it's not your car.

Personally, I can only repeat myself: practically, the IS300h has more than enough performance for UK roads, including acceleration. The only place I find I'd want it to have more torquey beans is European motorways, particularly the Autobahn, simply because I don't want to rev to 4-5k every time when I want to pick up speed. That's where I wish they built an electric system that could chime in, but that's precisely where it cannot (or prevented from by the computer), because of a relatively low-performance Battery pack. This is where it shows that it's not a European brand, but a Japanese exporting primarily to the US, and there is no need in either of those places to deliver lots of torque above 80 mph, and there are no roads where it's either socially accepted or legal to drive at 100+ mph. With an updated electrical system, ideally with a 20-mile plug-in electric option, that would be possible. Instead, Lexus moved out of the sporty sedan category.

Which reminds me of that anecdote, that an American car brand early in the motoring days received reports of exceptionally high failure rates from their European customers. After a bit of investigation, it turned out that European customers, according to the report, were simply driving way too fast and aggressively compared to American drivers, stressing the gearbox and the engine way more than the maker expected.

J Henderson · July 22, 2022

3 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Back on topic, no sign of petrol prices falling here yet. Still £1.85 yesterday.

Galashiels, yesterday.

Moleman · July 22, 2022

38 minutes ago, J Henderson said:

Galashiels, yesterday.

Local supermarkets all reduced by 9p per litre at home.

Bluemarlin · July 22, 2022

6 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

As above, the main purpose is to eliminate the continuous high speed revs which does in fact alienate a lot of customers in market research.

Thanks David/Phil

So, as I understand it, it replaces the continued acceleration/rise in revs, with a momentary drop in revs as it shifts gear, and so is for aesthetic reasons?

I hadn't really noticed it too much to be honest, especially with the windows closed, but I can see how it might bother some people. I'm probably the odd one out, but prefer the feel of the continuous acceleration over the slight dip as the gear changes.

wharfhouse · July 22, 2022

4 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

Thanks David/Phil

So, as I understand it, it replaces the continued acceleration/rise in revs, with a momentary drop in revs as it shifts gear, and so is for aesthetic reasons?

I hadn't really noticed it too much to be honest, especially with the windows closed, but I can see how it might bother some people. I'm probably the odd one out, but prefer the feel of the continuous acceleration over the slight dip as the gear changes.

In essence yes, on the Lexus you can manually initiate the pseudo 6 gear shifts which control the engine revs and give the feeling that gears are being changed. It is however purely aesthetic and in fact not as quick or efficient as allowing the e-cvt to do its own thing. However, for some people it gives them a feeling of more control - though after some initial playing with this I have never bothered using it since...

Las Palmas · July 22, 2022

21 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

yes I was that good

Thackeray · July 22, 2022

39 minutes ago, Bluemarlin said:

So, as I understand it, it replaces the continued acceleration/rise in revs, with a momentary drop in revs as it shifts gear, and so is for aesthetic reasons?

I hadn't really noticed it too much to be honest, especially with the windows closed, but I can see how it might bother some people. I'm probably the odd one out, but prefer the feel of the continuous acceleration over the slight dip as the gear changes.

People want the momentary drop in revs and the physical jolt of the car as you change gear because several generations of drivers over the past hundred years have been taught that this is what a car does. But I'm another odd one out and also prefer the continuous smooth acceleration, particularly at a green light when the cars beside me are speeding up and slowing down, going ahead and dropping behind as they change gear. (I'm not talking about racing away from the lights - just gentle acceleration up to 20 or 30 mph before the next red light comes up.)

However, what I don't understand is why the people who want the jolt and drop in revs in a car don't demand the same in a jet plane or a power boat, or an electric powered train, come to that. Can anyone explain why people don't demand the same lack of smoothness in these other forms of transport?

Boxbrownie · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, Bluemarlin said:

Thanks David/Phil

So, as I understand it, it replaces the continued acceleration/rise in revs, with a momentary drop in revs as it shifts gear, and so is for aesthetic reasons?

I hadn't really noticed it too much to be honest, especially with the windows closed, but I can see how it might bother some people. I'm probably the odd one out, but prefer the feel of the continuous acceleration over the slight dip as the gear changes.

The real point is if you want “excessive acceleration” as was once so eloquently put 😉 the CVT transmission allows the engine to go to maximum power/revs so giving the not very nice noises of a continuously high revving engine, but if used gently under normal conditions the CVT uses the most efficient power bands of the engine which are usually at the highest torque bands of the engine rather than the highest revs.

It is a compromise some people do not want.

Boxbrownie · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, Las Palmas said:

Glad you spotted that 🤣

Boxbrownie · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, Thackeray said:

People want the momentary drop in revs and the physical jolt of the car as you change gear because several generations of drivers over the past hundred years have been taught that this is what a car does. But I'm another odd one out and also prefer the continuous smooth acceleration, particularly at a green light when the cars beside me are speeding up and slowing down, going ahead and dropping behind as they change gear. (I'm not talking about racing away from the lights - just gentle acceleration up to 20 or 30 mph before the next red light comes up.)

However, what I don't understand is why the people who want the jolt and drop in revs in a car don't demand the same in a jet plane or a power boat, or an electric powered train, come to that. Can anyone explain why people don't demand the same lack of smoothness in these other forms of transport?

But that only happens with manual gearboxes and poorly set older auto transmissions, modern torque converter automatics are step-less as are the twin clutch automatic transmissions such as the DSG/PDK type.

wharfhouse · July 22, 2022

1 hour ago, Thackeray said:

People want the momentary drop in revs and the physical jolt of the car as you change gear because several generations of drivers over the past hundred years have been taught that this is what a car does. But I'm another odd one out and also prefer the continuous smooth acceleration, particularly at a green light when the cars beside me are speeding up and slowing down, going ahead and dropping behind as they change gear. (I'm not talking about racing away from the lights - just gentle acceleration up to 20 or 30 mph before the next red light comes up.)

However, what I don't understand is why the people who want the jolt and drop in revs in a car don't demand the same in a jet plane or a power boat, or an electric powered train, come to that. Can anyone explain why people don't demand the same lack of smoothness in these other forms of transport?

IMHO it's two-fold:

a) what people are used to in their traditional manual/auto cars - personally I don't find the e-cvt at all offensive and like you say I now much prefer the smooth power delivery with no jerkiness knowing the drive train is working at maximum efficiency at all times - and yes, it does bring a smile at traffic lights sometimes to me too as I glide away while the car next to me drops back as jerks through a gear change...

b) the motoring press that have until recently lambasted the e-cvt because it was "different" without appreciating / reporting the benefits (and shear simplicity and elegance of the e-cvt over any other gearbox) - this has influenced many people (including other lazy journalists) to report the same without even trying it in every day motoring (not just on a race track!)

wharfhouse · July 22, 2022

6 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

But that only happens with manual gearboxes and poorly set older auto transmissions, modern torque converter automatics are step-less as are the twin clutch automatic transmissions such as the DSG/PDK type.

And overly complicated and so more likely to be prone to failures - the simplicity of the e-cvt and it's engineering elegance is IMHO one of its unsung strengths...