Fuel panic!

Malc · July 20, 2022

anyway, my nephew can, at a whim, shepherd his flock of sheep thru' the City with total impunity ...... sheep droppings and all :wink3:

Malc

Boxbrownie · July 20, 2022

5 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Different driving style. You need to get full power and violent acceleration. I do not.

Constant engine revs?

Driving Le Mans? Rally? Try a Lancia EVO with low gearing and you will have a beautiful sound from engine while you shock your passenger/co-driver.

No road noise in electric cars? What kind of tyres are they on? Or are they being lifted on balloons? Sorry, maybe where you drive road surface is so smooth that it is noiseless.

I’ve driven true rally vehicles, I know what engines sound like….Intergrale, BDA Mk2 or RS200…..all sound good.

Sorry but you mentioned road noise not me, of course there is road noise what there is isn’t is any engine noise at all, even when overtaking or do you never overtake in your CVT transmission Vehicle?

You conflating an argument to justify your opinion.

Boxbrownie · July 20, 2022

5 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Stamp on the throttle and you’re quite correct. Drive progressively it works well imho, but accept - as has been said before on the forum - that those who like to drive more ‘aggressively’ probably won’t like the eCVT gearbox. I drive in what I’ll call a ‘relaxed’ manner and prefer eCVT to a traditional torque converter type as it suits me better.

On the subject of noise, I have been in a couple of EVs. The iPace, for all its limitations, was very VERY quiet. However, the ICONIC5 that I test drove wasn’t. Road and wind noise levels were quite poor.

To be fair, the salesman noted that without engine noise, you are initially more aware of road and wind noise, which makes sense to me. He said you adjust expectations within a few days.

I did like the ICONIC5 but as I said previously, after a long discussion with the salesman he suggested the Winter range at motorway speeds meant it wouldn’t suit me UNLESS I was willing to stop somewhere for a 20 minute top up charge as I compete a weekly 200 mile round trip.

Here’s the thing. When I retire in a few years I will buy an EV. I’m quite looking forward to it. As noted on a different thread, I recently spent a full day looking at and driving EVs with a close relative, who has ordered the Lexus RZ. BUT for what I do now, I consider a 20 minute top up charge as an additional part of a 90 minute journey to be more inconvenient than I’m prepared to tolerate. In the Summer all the salesman agree it would be fine, but they also all agreed that in the Winter below 10C and at 70mph cars with an advertised range of 280-300 miles wouldn’t manage the 200 mile round trip without a top up.

As they should have wanted to sell me a car, I’d trust their view as they don’t want a dis-satisfied customer. That’s quite comforting. I found them to be realistic and pragmatic rather than evangelical.

That’s all very fair and a balanced view, I am not sure the winter range should drop quite as much as that, most would probably loose around 20% range in winter but obviously very dependent on driving style, it appears the salesman was being very conservative to cover his butt, good for him.

I just wish people would realise an EV is not the devil but an alternative fuelled vehicle which a lot of people like to drive.

First_Lexus · July 20, 2022

2 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

That’s all very fair and a balanced view, I am not sure the winter range should drop quite as much as that, most would probably loose around 20% range in winter but obviously very dependent on driving style, it appears the salesman was being very conservative to cover his butt, good for him.

I just wish people would realise an EV is not the devil but an alternative fuelled vehicle which a lot of people like to drive.

I can’t remember which salesman told us - words to the effect - that all cars have compromises, and the question purchasers of an EV have to answer is whether the compromises around owning an EV, namely range and charging time when away from home, are better than petrol/diesel fuel and maintenance costs.

He or she told my relative that on longer trips he’d need to get used to driving more slowly, possibly not using heated seats etc. in order to conserve range in certain circumstances.

Personally speaking, I’m not married any more so only have one (main) vehicle. I think a lot of people - not everybody by any stretch - have two cars in the family and for them one EV and one fossil fuel works well.

Boxbrownie · July 20, 2022

47 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

I can’t remember which salesman told us - words to the effect - that all cars have compromises, and the question purchasers of an EV have to answer is whether the compromises around owning an EV, namely range and charging time when away from home, are better than petrol/diesel fuel and maintenance costs.

He or she told my relative that on longer trips he’d need to get used to driving more slowly, possibly not using heated seats etc. in order to conserve range in certain circumstances.

Personally speaking, I’m not married any more so only have one (main) vehicle. I think a lot of people - not everybody by any stretch - have two cars in the family and for them one EV and one fossil fuel works well.

We had several new’ish cars while also owning the i3, a nice V8 diesel RR, Porsche Boxster S, Lexus RX450h (which unfortunately only lasted a few months, we thought we could but couldn’t live with the CVT on the multitude of steep hills we have around here) but we always used the i3 the most, so we came to our senses and decided just the one vehicle will do, and it has…..without comprise for our use, but then we are retired and do long journeys only occasionally (maybe six times a year).

Although I am surprised the salesman told your friend about the heated seats taking too much traction power, as the reason they fit heated seat virtually universally in EVs is they are a lot more efficient than using the heater matrix which uses traction power also. Maybe he needs a re-read of his sales literature. 😆

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

10 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Ah yes of course its the press again how could i forget

You got it

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

2 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

That’s all very fair and a balanced view, I am not sure the winter range should drop quite as much as that, most would probably loose around 20% range in winter but obviously very dependent on driving style, it appears the salesman was being very conservative to cover his butt, good for him.

I just wish people would realise an EV is not the devil but an alternative fuelled vehicle which a lot of people like to drive.

Not necessarily a devil but forced upon people however. They have as many downsides as upsides but what is there to do, you are not allowed question anything nowadays

dutchie01 · July 20, 2022

3 minutes ago, toffee_pie said:

Not necessarily a devil but forced upon people however. They have as many downsides as upsides but what is there to do, you are not allowed question anything nowadays

You can question absolutely everything every day constantly and again. There are numerous youtube channels and traditional magazines reporting on all forms of vehicles. Pros and cons are balanced. On BEV i can advise Teslabjorn and automotive in general Savagegeese or MotomanTV.

First_Lexus · July 20, 2022

1 hour ago, Boxbrownie said:

Although I am surprised the salesman told your friend about the heated seats taking too much traction power, as the reason they fit heated seat virtually universally in EVs is they are a lot more efficient than using the heater matrix which uses traction power also. Maybe he needs a re-read of his sales literature. 😆

I have to say, we were impressed with most of the EV specialists we saw - (well, they claimed to be specialists!).

Most were keen to understand how the car would be used, in order to establish whether an EV was appropriate or to explain the compromises that might be involved.

Where I struggle is when people try to claim there are ‘no compromises’ in owning an EV in ANY circumstances, which I consider to be ridiculous evangelism. I deal with evangelists for different causes on a daily basis as part of my job, and often it’s as if they’re trying to convince themselves as much as others. I’ve been trained to spot it and deconstruct it. I digress…

Only one of the EV specialists was what I’d consider to be a ‘traditional’ car salesman on the ‘Arfur Daley’ scale. That was Porsche, and tbh we were embarrassed for him. He was so keen to talk about the ‘brand’ and how it showed ‘success’ that he was almost a parody. Clearly nobody had trained him about different types of customer. Dealing with two very traditional types, one in his fifties and one in his sixties, he got it utterly wrong. We left as fast as we could, laughing about how ‘David Brent’ the whole experience was!

Volvo were a cliche. The salesman was very young, wearing braces to hold up his (too short) trousers, with a hipster beard and no socks with his slip on shoes. He insisted on saying ‘Fol-Vo’ too. Nice guy no doubt, but for people like us slightly comical.

Tesla were a shambles.They didn’t really do anything wrong, but we got the impression they were like a cult. The other customers didn’t help if I’m honest…

All the others were exceptional, and seemed like they were reading from similar scripts. I saw Hyundai separately, and was most impressed with them.

As it stands, I’m still spending less on petrol in my RX than I was in an NX before the pandemic due to the shift to working at home. That will suit me for a few years before I move to an EV when my use allows. I even already have a home charger fitted...

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

11 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The term " sheep " is also used in circles of covid deniers. All people taking the vaccine are sheep as they are on the leash of the Governments and the great reset on the background. I guess toffee is using sheep in this frame as well as he is talking about the government controlling all moves electronically through the car.

Not everyone is waiting for the curve to flatten and take multiple and questionable vaccines over a disease with almost 100 percent survival rate to keep safe - but if you listen to the government they wont tell you all the white papers on ADRs or the fact the vaccines are as useful as placebo - they wont tell you about the pay outs to families either due to said vaccines - even the fact that our PM was partying during this is not enough to convince people like you

Sorry, my tin foil hat is blocking the keyboard, hang on

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

20 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

You can question absolutely everything every day constantly and again. There are numerous youtube channels and traditional magazines reporting on all forms of vehicles. Pros and cons are balanced. On BEV i can advise Teslabjorn and automotive in general Savagegeese or MotomanTV.

You can question them but not to the government you can’t, they have unanimously rolled out EVs whether one likes it or not

The problem with society nowadays is nobody is allowed ask questions, nothing - nada, zilch. This goes for covid, climate change, electric cars and the developing landscape of cycle lanes and ULEZ zones

As an Engineer its difficult as I am always judgemental of everything, and Einstein always questioned everything - but he was smart.

Electric cars are not beneficial for the environment, certainly not to the extent we are LED to believe - maybe they will get batteries that are greener in the future or can reduce the need to pack thousands of them into Battery packs but for now I am taking a pretty wide berth into the eco friendliness of EVs - with the extra cost associated with them and the hassle with charging them up and many other reasons but what’s the point

Quote

I guess toffee is using sheep in this frame as well as he is talking about the government controlling all moves electronically through the car.

Again, you are not asking questions and you probably don’t sound like an Engineer - if you were you would know that combustion cars are inherently analogue in nature - How are the wheels driven in a EV? Digitally is the answer you need - so of course its possible to have more control of them. Have you seen the advancement in smartphone tech since the Nokia 3310? amazing isn’t it

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

23 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Nonsense. Spain is bigger than Seville. This is the second heatwave this year in Spain which normally are located in the South/Middle of the country. First one in June was country wide and this one moved all the way up North through France into the UK. Ultra High temp and superdry nature caused numerous wildfires and almost dried out water reservoirs. It is a disaster nothing less. Puzzles me how you can blame the press for this. ( or maybe Bill Gates did buy all shares in firefighting equipment companies ithis spring so HE could be behind this?)

How does a fire start? Sorry, this is me asking stupid questions again - I am sure you know you need three elements to start a fire and heat alone is insufficent - certainly not 40C - paper combusts at 248C - so 40C wont ignite anythying without a spark or source.

My suspicion is that most of these fires are due to (stupid) humans, in Australia there is a total fire ban during the hot season - get caught and you will get locked up - In Ireland farmers deliberately start gorse fires to clear farmland and Ireland is not exactly known for 40C weather

toffee_pie · July 20, 2022

18 hours ago, Bluemarlin said:

And the realist would say it's just a revenue generator, as most petrol cars up to 15 years old are not affected, and so their owners are not being driven to electric at all.

Wives mighty Honda Jazz is liable for fees in November

* after double chekcing it looks like its exempt - still dont agree with these zones particuarly the bike lanes taking up roads in congested cities

Bluemarlin · July 20, 2022

6 hours ago, Malc said:

Sadiq Khan is simply totally anti handicapped and disabled people .... a zealot for sure BUT also Discrimatory and Evil in his thoughts towards handicapped people

don't you think ??? 😈

Malc

Don't know him well enough to know whether it's deliberate discrimination or unintended consequence 😉

DavidCM · July 20, 2022

2 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

I have to say, we were impressed with most of the EV specialists we saw - (well, they claimed to be specialists!).

Most were keen to understand how the car would be used, in order to establish whether an EV was appropriate or to explain the compromises that might be involved.

Where I struggle is when people try to claim there are ‘no compromises’ in owning an EV in ANY circumstances, which I consider to be ridiculous evangelism. I deal with evangelists for different causes on a daily basis as part of my job, and often it’s as if they’re trying to convince themselves as much as others. I’ve been trained to spot it and deconstruct it. I digress…

Only one of the EV specialists was what I’d consider to be a ‘traditional’ car salesman on the ‘Arfur Daley’ scale. That was Porsche, and tbh we were embarrassed for him. He was so keen to talk about the ‘brand’ and how it showed ‘success’ that he was almost a parody. Clearly nobody had trained him about different types of customer. Dealing with two very traditional types, one in his fifties and one in his sixties, he got it utterly wrong. We left as fast as we could, laughing about how ‘David Brent’ the whole experience was!

Volvo were a cliche. The salesman was very young, wearing braces to hold up his (too short) trousers, with a hipster beard and no socks with his slip on shoes. He insisted on saying ‘Fol-Vo’ too. Nice guy no doubt, but for people like us slightly comical.

Tesla were a shambles.They didn’t really do anything wrong, but we got the impression they were like a cult. The other customers didn’t help if I’m honest…

All the others were exceptional, and seemed like they were reading from similar scripts. I saw Hyundai separately, and was most impressed with them.

As it stands, I’m still spending less on petrol in my RX than I was in an NX before the pandemic due to the shift to working at home. That will suit me for a few years before I move to an EV when my use allows. I even already have a home charger fitted...

DavidCM · July 20, 2022

2 hours ago, First_Lexus said:

Only one of the EV specialists was what I’d consider to be a ‘traditional’ car salesman on the ‘Arfur Daley’ scale. That was Porsche, and tbh we were embarrassed for him. He was so keen to talk about the ‘brand’ and how it showed ‘success’ that he was almost a parody. Clearly nobody had trained him about different types of customer. Dealing with two very traditional types, one in his fifties and one in his sixties, he got it utterly wrong.

Ed- I guess, looking where we both live you went to Porsche at Reading.My experience there was completley different.Excellent salesman,knew when and what to say,not over pushy,but was capable of closing a deal.The majority of staff there were very good;went out of their way to show me round the whole operation(they prepare all the 911 cup racers there and service/store all the high end models GT1,Carerra GT etc.) They even made me a set of grilles for the lower front radiator intakes for my Cayman--at a reasonable(for Porsche) price.Otherwise they were bloody expensive..but you get what you pay for..

DAVID

Las Palmas · July 20, 2022

6 hours ago, Boxbrownie said:

or do you never overtake in your CVT transmission Vehicle?

Not often. Mostly just follow traffic.

Have learned that being in a hurry help nobody. Rather come a minute later, than not come.

But like mentioned before. Different driving style. You are one that like to drive fast. I like to drive comfortable, 25 - 35 years ago I was also sometimes driving fast. Now no more rally for me.

LenT · July 21, 2022

4 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

but if you listen to the government they wont tell you all the white papers on ADRs or the fact the vaccines are as useful as placebo

I see that you are fond of citing ADRs (Adverse Reactions) and thus the Yellow Card reporting system. To my certain knowledge, I have twice provided you with links to the latest issues and in particular directed your attention to the primary conclusion of the Report. Have you actually read one?

I reproduce my last response below. (I see you have to expand the quote to see it!)

In what way does the conclusion in bold suggest that 'vaccines are as useful as placebo'?

On 7/12/2022 at 1:55 PM, LenT said:

You mentioned ADRs (Adverse Reactions). Previously you’d cited the Yellow Card report, albeit a year-old version, so I had then provided a link to the latest edition – which I do again!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

It’s important to note the limitations of the Yellow Card scheme. It’s also important to note that the conclusion remains the same.

Namely:

Vaccines are the best way to protect people from COVID-19 and have already saved tens of thousands of lives. Everyone should continue to get their vaccination when invited to do so unless specifically advised otherwise.

I trust that will reassure most people. 🙂

4 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

so 40C wont ignite anythying without a spark or source.

I don't think that will reassure the villagers of Wennington recently devastated by fire. According to Alfie Stock, the fire started in his neighbour's three-foot high pile of grass which spontaneously combusted. These fires do not need a spark or a source. Given the presence of the right materials - damp, combustible grass, hay, straw - an ambient temperature of 40C is sufficient to initiate an exothermic reaction which raises the internal temperature to the ignition point of the material. And up they go!

4 hours ago, toffee_pie said:

My suspicion is that most of these fires are due to (stupid) humans,

Many certainly are! And sometimes not stupid, but criminal!

With regard to Ivermectin, I'm not too sure what point you're trying to make.

It's a very effective antiparasitic drug used in both veterinary and human medicine, but it has never been promoted by any recognised health authority as an effective way of preventing or treating Covid-19.

In fact it's almost a classic example of how misleading - and even fraudulent - claims are made by conspiracists and anti-vaccinationists about such products in order to try to discredit the treatments that actually are effective!

So if you're troubled by head lice or scabies, then Ivermectin's just the job. For Covid-19 - not so much!

First_Lexus · July 21, 2022

9 hours ago, DavidCM said:

Ed- I guess, looking where we both live you went to Porsche at Reading.My experience there was completley different.Excellent salesman,knew when and what to say,not over pushy,but was capable of closing a deal

Thanks David. To be fair the service was good - everybody was polite and friendly, nice tea and coffee etc. It was the style that jarred, really like something from a bygone era (and not in a good way!).

The best way I can describe it is that all the other dealers went out of their way to talk about owning an EV, and whether it was a sensible option. They were low key, and their own marque seemed to come second.

Porsche was a hard sell. He was the only one who seemed fascinated by how the car would be financed and the deals that could be done, the option lists and what was ‘needed’ to spec up ‘your Porsche.’ I guess it works for him otherwise he wouldn’t do it, but he mis-read the situation based on who was sitting in front of him imho.

I suppose my wider point, further to other posts on this thread, is that if people are going to be convinced by a switch to an EV then it needs to be with understanding and accurate information. Evangelists for the EV who trivialise worries about range and who potentially stretch the truth in order to convince others won’t work - in fact, I think that approach pushes people away and makes them sceptical.

On the other side, EV deniers who claim everything about them is wrong or evil or a conspiracy don’t help much either!

My buying experience - well, not mine but I was there - was mainly positive. I got the information I needed to understand that an EV wouldn’t suit me right now. My brother-in-law can make the switch now as his travel needs are different. Other than Porsche, I felt reassured that nobody was trying to sell me something that I’d end up being frustrated or dis-satisfied with.

Malc · July 21, 2022

7 hours ago, LenT said:

So if you're troubled by head lice or scabies, then Ivermectin's just the job. For Covid-19 - not so much!

and a good swig of petrol will probably sort out many ailmments too :unsure:

This is getting all too serious and way off the mark of Fuel Panic

and FP will soon be gone forever when as the AA have been saying recently .. prices will be down significantly these next two weks

NOT SURE tho' if that's fuel at the pumps or beer at the pumps ...... if it was the AA Alcoholics Anonymous masquerading as the REAL AA :wink3:

Malc

dutchie01 · July 21, 2022

So, do we fill up now or wait as long as possible as prices are falling??

First_Lexus · July 21, 2022

52 minutes ago, Malc said:

saying recently .. prices will be down significantly these next two weks

^^ I’ll believe it when I see it!

Boxbrownie · July 21, 2022

9 hours ago, Las Palmas said:

Not often. Mostly just follow traffic.

Have learned that being in a hurry help nobody. Rather come a minute later, than not come.

But like mentioned before. Different driving style. You are one that like to drive fast. I like to drive comfortable, 25 - 35 years ago I was also sometimes driving fast. Now no more rally for me.

It’s a strange world, when just because I need to overtake sometimes I must be a “fast driver”. 🤣

DavidCM · July 21, 2022

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

Thanks David. To be fair the service was good - everybody was polite and friendly, nice tea and coffee etc. It was the style that jarred, really like something from a bygone era (and not in a good way!).

The best way I can describe it is that all the other dealers went out of their way to talk about owning an EV, and whether it was a sensible option. They were low key, and their own marque seemed to come second.

Porsche was a hard sell. He was the only one who seemed fascinated by how the car would be financed and the deals that could be done, the option lists and what was ‘needed’ to spec up ‘your Porsche.’ I guess it works for him otherwise he wouldn’t do it, but he mis-read the situation based on who was sitting in front of him imho.

I suppose my wider point, further to other posts on this thread, is that if people are going to be convinced by a switch to an EV then it needs to be with understanding and accurate information. Evangelists for the EV who trivialise worries about range and who potentially stretch the truth in order to convince others won’t work - in fact, I think that approach pushes people away and makes them sceptical.

On the other side, EV deniers who claim everything about them is wrong or evil or a conspiracy don’t help much either!

My buying experience - well, not mine but I was there - was mainly positive. I got the information I needed to understand that an EV wouldn’t suit me right now. My brother-in-law can make the switch now as his travel needs are different. Other than Porsche, I felt reassured that nobody was trying to sell me something that I’d end up being frustrated or dis-satisfied with.

DavidCM · July 21, 2022

You mentioned a bygone era..I ordered my car from them in2006 so I suppose things change as time passed.

They did try selling me finance but,apart from my house mortgage,I have always saved for things-even highish ticket items like cars.."If you don't have it in your back pocket,don't have it."